Anyone experiment with BTR Nitrous kit?

[phiebert]

I live in a cooler climate than a lot of you so I have a hard time getting my nitrous bottle pressure above 900 psi even with a bottle heater on cold days. It often sits at around 600 to 800. I'm wondering if rather than adding a second heat strip (to much draw on the battery) or having to leave the bottle in the sun, if I drilled the largest nozzle hole just slightly larger would that have the same effect. Or can you get bigger nozzles? If I use a space heater to get the pressure above 900 psi I can feel a huge difference from when it is at 700 psi. So wouldn't having a larger hole (the nozzle is the 52 that I am using) increase the volume of nitrous just like increasing the pressure?

Before everyone jumps in and tells me I'm insane for boring larger holes, just remember that most people would think putting a nitrous kit on a Viper is insane itself!

 

[jp]

How about installing one more Nozzle instead?

 

[ntmatter]

How about moving the N20 bottle into the cabin, maybe in the passenger footwell with a blowdown tube? Possibly rig several smaller bottles under the passenger seat? You could fabricate some sort of bracket to make the whole assembly quick-in/quick-out. If you have a temp controlled garage, and the heater on if it's too cold, then this'd be the best option IMO.

I'd be very nervous about about changing jet sizes; what happens if your bottle temperature is not low? The whole system basically operates under the presumption that the bottle will be at a certain pressure, and unless you're able to absolutely prevent the bottle attaining a higher (normal) pressure, then I think that adding more N20 capacity to the system is a bad idea.

 

[Snake Bitten]

Do you have a bottle blanket, it increases the bottle heater's efficiency...

 

[Tom Welch]

Patrick,

Give me a call for warming suggestions..also the blanket works very well. I can send you one if you don't have one. Changing jet sizes will not solve your problem. You may be confusing pressure with flow.

Tom

 

[phiebert]

Patrick,

Give me a call for warming suggestions..also the blanket works very well. I can send you one if you don't have one. Changing jet sizes will not solve your problem. You may be confusing pressure with flow.

Tom

I'll try to call you one of these days Tom. I do have a blanket (got it with your kit!) and the heat strip gets very hot but I can't seem to get the pressure over 900 psi. I have asked the guys that fill it (and tried a few different places) to go wild and squeeze as much as possible in, but it never seems to make a difference. If I use a space heater for a few hours in the trunk and get the bottle up over 900 I can notice a big difference. If it is at 850 I can barely notice the Nitrous. That's how finicky the difference is. And I'm not crazy about having electric heaters around a propane bottle.

I guess I am confusing pressure with flow, basically don't both get you more Nitrous volume to the cylinders? I think that is my issue. I just don't get enough Nitrous to mix with the fuel to add to the combustive properties. I'm pretty sure I'm not getting the boost that others get and suspect it is because I am not getting the volume. I thought that by getting bigger jets I could increase the volume just like adding more pressure would do?

 

[jp]

Not until I added a bottle heater to my Propane did I notice real difference.

 

[phiebert]

You added a heater to your propane? I seem to do better in seat of the pants feel when I turn my propane off. I've only done that a couple times for testing because I don't want to run lean. But I was starting to think that the propane was affecting the amount of Nitrous that came out. That doesn't make sense though with the Nitrous PSI at 7 times higher. What PSI does your propane get to then if you use a heater on it?

 

[Jack B]

Patrick:

You must dyno the car for a/f (hp is secondary) You are probably lucky that the NOS bottle pressure was low, without the propane you will run too lean. Your system is only capable of approximately 75-100 hp without enrichment. You probably can't even get 50-75 hp with a low NOS bottle pressure. Relative to you comment on the bottle heater, if it is getting too hot it is possible it does not have sufficient contact with the bottle, either loose or placement.

The hp derived from propane enrichment is even more susceptible to low bottle pressure due to the inherent losses in the delivery system. If you don't keep the propane bottle at 160 psi the hp loss is dramatic. There are many benefits to propane, however, the bottle has to be kept very close to 160 psi.

Any NOS system thrives on consistency which you cannot achieve without a stable pressure in both the NOS and the propane bottles. Without consistency you cannot maintain a safe a/f ratio, which, in turn can jeopardize your engine. The last post also had a a good comment, due to your cold weather proximity a bottle heater on the propane is also advisable.

Someone with a a basic knowledge of NOS and the viper can get your car producing without to much trouble. The key is unlimited access to a dyno. Try and find the closest person with the above knowledge base and equipment.

NE Ohio is a stretch, however, I would like to help you if possible. If you can find a good NOS technician near you that has access to a dyno I can walk him thru a dyno/jetting session. Send me a private message if you are interested in some help.

 

[Rich Detert]

Not until I added a bottle heater to my Propane did I notice real difference.

I added a bottle heater to my propane bottle too. Prior to that I had problems keeping the propane bottle anywhere near 160 psi. Now it stays right on it.

The Nitrous bottle gets to at least 900 psi (I'm hoping it will warn up a little more in the summer months).

Is the bottle heater and thermostat working properly?

 

[phiebert]

I'm surprised that the propane pressure is important for horsepower but I'll try heating that and see what happens. My Nitrous bottle heater works well, makes contact well, is positioned correctly and I have the blanket so with the warmer summer temps I'm expecting to keep it above 900 psi. The propane bottle though doesn't have a heater and usually sits at around 110 to 120 psi. I've never had mine near 160!

Now that you mention that propane pressure makes a difference in HP that might be my problem! When I put a space heater in the trunk I end up heating both bottles. I hadn't really paid attention to the propane because I assumed it was just a enrichment to keep from running lean and didn't make any difference to horsepower. If it does, I'll start caring what it reads! With the space heater I was unintentionally heating the propane as well and maybe that was giving me the boost. I'm going to try heating both tanks up and see what happens.

By the way, what do those heat strips draw for amps? Does two heat strips and a big stereo amp drain your battery and over tax your alternator?

 

[jp]

Two heaters and a big stereo will definitely drain your battery...
150-160Psi in the Popane bottle, and 900-950 in the N2O is were it should be.

 

[ACELLR8]

I was just curious could it be a problem with the NOS kit or bottle heater?

I have the NX system and with a 15 pound bottle on a 10 degree day I can still get my bottle pressure up to 1000 PSI in a matter of 15 - 30 minutes.

Is it possible to use a NX bottle heater with a NOS kit? Maybe it gets hotter.

Definitely seems like something is not right with the bottle heater in this situation. I will agree with you that the differance in 100 PSI bottle presure can make a big differance.

When I did a dyno run with my car with the 200 HP jets, the differance from 900 PSI bottle pressure and 1000 PSI bottle presure was 200 ft pounds of torque. It went from peak torque at 590 to 801 RWTQ.

 

[phiebert]

1000 PSI?!! Wow, I can only dream of that kind of pressure. Is the NX bottle heater that different? Isn't it just a flat strip heater that gets much too hot to hold just like the NOS one? I was wondering if I went to a smaller bottle if I could get the pressure up higher.

 

[ACELLR8]

1000 PSI?!! Wow, I can only dream of that kind of pressure. Is the NX bottle heater that different? Isn't it just a flat strip heater that gets much too hot to hold just like the NOS one? I was wondering if I went to a smaller bottle if I could get the pressure up higher.

Pat,

Yeah they are probably very similiar, mine is a flat heater that almost reminds me of a water bead heater that wraps around the bottle.
Just one stupid question are you sure your gauge is not sticking? I notice sometimes mine gets stuck at around 800 PSI, a couple of flicks with my middle finger and it unsticks it. Is the gauge liquid filled like the NX gauge?
Might want to make sure the gauge is not sticking, and you are actually getting the Pressure you are supposed to.

One more thing I know the NX kit has the conducer that turns the bottle warmer on when the presure is below 900 PSI and turns it off when it reaches 1000 PSI bottle pressure. On my buddy's vette the conducer was malfunctioning and actually shutting the heater off before the bottle pressure reached 900 PSI, let alone 1000 PSI. We simply tested this by wiring the bottle heater around (bypassing) the conducer to keep the bottle heater on if the switch was on and the car was on. His bottle heater stayed on and the bottle pressure rose to the desired pressure. I would not recommend leaving it like this but it might be a test worth trying to see if you have a bad conducer, that is if the NOS kits even have a conducer. Like I said I don't really know the NOS systems but would image they are similiar.
Good luck figuring it out, and hopefully you figure it out soon because other wise you are probably wasteing the N2O and we know it is not cheap either.

 

[phiebert]

Thanks for the ideas Ed. It is possible that my gauge is just not working. It is an air filled gauge (not liquid) and I have flicked my finger at it or tapped it to see if it was sticking but that didn't change it. The kit I have has a themostat shut off, so the bottle has to get warm enough before that shuts it off. That is another thing I could check. It seems to work fine, that is if I stop the car and check it, the heater is on, but maybe it is cycling on and off and I am just not catching it at the right time.

I think I'll leave my trunk open to the sunlight, let the car idle and have the heater on and see how high I can get the pressure.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Tom Welch]

Pat,

Chances are your gauge is working, and actually the NOS non liquid filled gauge works better than its predecessor.

Your heater will only work when the ignition switch is ON..keep that in mind, as it is a safety feature. You can remove this feature and use just the heater on-off switch but i do not recommend it. Feel free to contact me if you wish to try the heater without the safety features in place.

Your propane pressure should be at least 140 psi with 160 psi preferred. This is important! Your system will perform at its best with nos pressure between 950 and 1100 psi. The heater is designed to maintain a safe and conservative 900 psi (85 degrees F). You will see substantial gains from increased NOS pressure but you MUST HAVE PROPANE PRESSURE AT OPTIMUM to avoid detonation.

Tom

 

[phiebert]

WOW!!!! OK, first of all, thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

What a ride I just had. I finally figured out the problem which I guess should have been obvious from the symptoms, but I guess I'm not that sharp!

I put a battery charger on and just let the heater go for 20 minutes or so. The thermostat is clicking off the heater somewhat randomly but generally between 825 and 875 psi. My bottle sits at around 625 psi cold and slowly rises to 850ish and then sits there. So I assumed the heater was working but just wasn't capable of getting it any higher.

When I realized just now that it was actually clicking off, I took the thermostat and taped it to the trunk floor. After a few minutes I had 1100 psi!! I took it for a quick spin and nearly blew my socks off! It was like driving a rocket! I can't believe I have had this kit for a couple years and never really experienced it. I want a rematch against those drag cars I've lost too!!!

Now that the problem has been found, I have a few other questions:

1. Now that I know I want my bottle to sit at around 1000 psi or slightly over, is there a different thermostat that I can put on that will stop it there? Or if I put some insulation between the bottle and the themostat (beyond that little velcro thing) would that do the trick? I don't know where the pressure will go to if the heater just stays on. Although the bad boy side of me wants to find out, not at the price of blowing up the car!

2. With higher Nitrous pressure I want to be sure I also have higher propane pressure. My propane sits around 110 to 120 at best without heating. Can the alternator handle a second strip heater for the propane tank? And I guess I would need a thermostat for it too.

 

[Tom Welch]

LOL,

That system at 900 psi with 160 psi propane and max jetting makes a minimum of 160 rwhp...about 30-40 more hp and another 100-150 rwtq at 1100 nos psi.

It is very important to maintain head pressure of 140-160 on the propane tank. You may need to use a 2nd heater for the propane bottle. The same heater as the nos bottle should work fine.

As for thermostat placement, the closer the thermostat is mounted to the heat strips on the blanket(where wires intersect the blanket) the quicker the thermostat will cylce off. Try placing the thermostat at the top side of the bottle and the heat strips at the bottom.

Tom

 

[phiebert]

Thanks Tom, I think the thermostat on my kit must be too sensitive though. I had it as you suggest (on top as far away from heat strip as possible and heat strips on bottom). I even tried putting it at the bottom of the bottle with the heat strip further up (cold sinks, heat rises theory) but that only got me to the 875 psi. Because there is such a big difference (probably the 150 rwtq) at 1000 to 1100 psi, I want to find a way to get it there consistently. I assume that will mean either wrapping the probes in something which is probably the easiest and cheapest fix, or putting in a new thermostat. Is that something I can buy at a automotive or electronics store?

Are people running two heat strips (one for propane) without a problem? That is, not too much draw ending up in dead batteries or fried alternators? I assume an electric heater has a large amperage draw.

 

[Jack B]

Patrick:

I picked up the heater feed directly from the battery with a #10 wire. I drilled the battery cable connector and used a self tapping screw and ring terminal to make the connection. It is only about a 24" lead length. Pick up the ground at the frame as the positive enters the car. This keeps the voltage drop to a minimum. Insert an inline fuse holder at the battery (best) or just as the lead enters the car. You still need the solenoid control power to come from the key switch and/or NOS switch.

The amount of time it takes to cycle the thermostat is exponentially related to the voltage, thus, voltage drop can limit the ability of the heater to make temperature. The conventional ATC style fuse holders is marginal. The dual heater setup pulls about a 20 amp rms equivalent, therefore, a 20 amp holder will eventually fail. Try to find a fuse holder that is rated for 30 amps, or use two 20A holders. It will not overtly affect a good battery, you shouldn't notice the diff.