Best Rotors and Brakes should I change them???

IL96RT10

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I am thinking about getting better brakes all around. I was going to go the whole nine with bigger slotted and cross drilled rotors and bigger calipers. I have heard alot of people take about a "big brake" kit. Would like to kow what is included and how much to install it all on my 96RT? and how much of a difference the bigger brakes make? I live in IL. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Have you priced big brake kits?

Tom has a nice rear brake upgrade that will make a significant difference without busting your wallet. He will be popping into this thread shortly.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Like a weasel.

For $630 you can replace just the rear calipers, balance the front to rear braking very well, and stop as well as the big boys (until Dave shows some data!!) The system is healthy enough for track days, for which Chuck is a good example. It's a DIY swap taking a couple hours, re-use your pads, brake hoses, wheels, rotors, no proportioning valve issues, same attaching hardware, etc. Or if you make any other hardware swap at the same time- it's no big deal since there are no fitment issues, even with 17" wheels.

For ~$3500 you can purchase Dave's brackets (they are nice, I just saw some) to replace the front and rear calipers with SRT calipers and balance the front to rear braking very well. You also add an adjustable proportioning valve, irreversibly cut off arms from the rear suspension upright, add a separate parking brake (now more total weight for the rear system than the OEM calipers!) and buy new pads.

I don't think anyone that has purchased either system is anything less than very happy. They both work, one system looks stock and, well, Dave's look great. In fact, Dave and I just met at Tator's and we had a nice chat about brakes.

sIMG_1261_1_.jpg


Since his look so nice, it's forced me to think poser, too. I have some concept pieces on eBay now to judge the demand. Here's the link to the yellow one in honor of Dave; click my other auctions and you'll see the other colors, too. My plan is to offer them with the 40mm calipers for a discount and have them available separately also.
 

Catwood

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What a funny pic! My money's on Yo' Pres though. He's a mean dude!
 

REDSLED

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I have a 4 wheel Stop tech kit for sale (red calipers) that is less than the SRT upgrade but more than Tom's single piston upgrade. Email me for pics.
 

Parisianviper

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Sorry to hi-jack this thread.

Tom you mentioned earlier that the 01-02 ABS rear calipers are different than the earlier ones? In what regard? Are they equipped with 40mm pistons already?
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Parisianviper, the 01-02 ABS calipers are 43mm single piston but a completely different design. The non-ABS version is a one-piece sliding caliper while the ABS version has separate bracket that supports the brake pads during braking while that caliper only does the clamping. The mounting of the 43mm calipers is also different and does not fit onto the older cars - and it's not just that the caliper is taller and interferes with the 17" wheel, the mounting holes don't line up.

Oddly, a non-ABS caliper costs $450 while the larger, newer ABS caliper is about $115.

43mm is theoretically too large, but by design, so that the ABS system has enough braking capacity to then adjust accordingly.
 

PDCjonny

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I'm sold, next trip up to Chucks I'm getting Tom's brake kit installed.
 

Schulmann

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I had both Tom`s & Dave`s kit.

I would definitely go with Dave`s big break kit.
This is a very well spent 2000$.
This is one of the best mods that I did to my viper along with the Roe Supercharger.

Front: 14'' genIII rotors and calipers with Brembo GenIII pads.
Rear: 13'' gentII rotors and calipers with Brembo GenII pads.
And I removed the prop valve spring.

My Viper is very well balanced with this setup and can stay on the track for hours without over heating the breaks. And I would espetially insist on the over heating factor.

An interesting upgrade for this Dave kit is to change the genII master cylinder for a GenIII master cylinder. It seems that the pedal "feeling" improves a lot.
 

Parisianviper

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Thanks for the reply, Tom.

So can we imagine upgrading the front brakes to the SRTs, and keep the stock rears on a ABS car?
Not too unbalanced?
 

Andrew2KRT10

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I would go with Tom's for the price and his word that it works well. The only reason I went with Dave's system is that I got the calipers and rotors off an '03 SRT for free, so how could I argue? I bought some of the hardware I needed from Dave and the rear e-brake set-up. Both good guys, flip a coin and see how far your hand will reach into your pocket.

AC
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Parisianviper, you are asking about the hydraulic and mechanical balance, but on an ABS car, that is not what controls the system anymore.

A 40/44mm diameter piston front caliper and a 43mm rear would be almost the same front to rear clamping force balance as a 38/42 front with a 40mm rear. Calculations of the ratio of front to rear piston areas show the 40/44+43 would be barely fractionally more rear biased, but I would expect the balance to be good. The difference, and perhaps the upgrade, might be moot, since the ABS system manages the braking and overrides the mechanical and hydraulic size differences.

In practice, the ultimate brake stopping performance difference should be zero. The fronts are already capable of exceeding threshold braking torque and locking up the wheels (evidence is that these same calipers easily do so on a non-ABS car.)

Endurance braking events may favor the SRT calipers only if the pad surface area is larger. Larger pads can tolerate equivalent brake heat better than small pads. The braking may still be equivalent (if the smaller pads are rated for higher operating temperatures) but they may wear faster or then be too cold for street use.

Schulmann correctly points out that extended track use will favor the largest pads, which forces you to the largest calipers. Think about that - better track performance is not the caliper size or how many pistons, it's really how large the pad is and managing the temperature of the pad. Having a larger pad that wraps around the rotor more is what requires more pistons.

I think when Shulmann says he removed the proportioning valve spring, he didn't mention that some other proportioning valve had to be installed. Going from a one-piston 36mm, 40mm, or 43mm rear caliper to a four rear piston caliper would generate a tremendous amount of additional rear clamping force and the rear tire would lockup very easily. It has to be throttled down with an adjustable proportioning valve.

Driver perception may change. The added volume inside a larger front or rear caliper means the master cylinder travel (pedal travel) might be very slightly longer and therefore the pedal "feel" might allow better modulation. It's not better braking, but making better use of the braking.

If you have an 01-02 ABS car, then you already have the larger master cylinder that comes on the SRT. I'll suggest this - if larger volume calipers increase pedal feel, wouldn't a smaller master cylinder also? By increasing (slightly) the distance your foot has to travel, you increase your capability of making fine adjustments. I have a good/used non-ABS MC if anyone with an ABS car wants to try it.
 

Schulmann

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Tires are always a VERY good investment.

People often spend thousand of dollars to increase their HP but forget the tires.

Today if somebody would ask me about what are the best mods for Joe average I would say tires and breaks will give you plenty of fun.

if you have some money left install a SC with a mild boost (5psi) and keep everything stock. You will have a lot of fun with this setup.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Tires like Kumhos actually cost less than standard, admittedly don't last as long, but certainly is a very good bang for the buck purchase.
 
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IL96RT10

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Thank you thank you so much for the all the responses. 2K doesn't seem that bad for my safety, I will get one of them definetly but i am not exactly DIY'r yet. What do you think the install price for either kit would be for tech in Chicagoland area would be. You said a couple of hours I just don't want to go over 3k for brakes.
 

ruckdr

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IL96RT10

You say you are not much of a DIY'r yet; in Chicago; there must be many, many Viper owners there that would give you a hand and help install Tom's brakes for FREE; it is SOOOOO simple. I would if you were near me.

Later,
 

Steve 00RT/10

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Thank you thank you so much for the all the responses. 2K doesn't seem that bad for my safety, I will get one of them definetly but i am not exactly DIY'r yet. What do you think the install price for either kit would be for tech in Chicagoland area would be. You said a couple of hours I just don't want to go over 3k for brakes.

I had Tom's kit installed, and system flushed, 2 years ago for $80 . Any trusted brake shop should be able to do it in an hour per side.

I think you have to step back a bit and think what your purpose is for upgrading. While the rear brakes in GEN I,II Vipers aren't the best, the brake package still stops the car as well or better than any stock street vehicle. If your primary driving is on the street and not the track, then upgrading to Tom's package is really all you need. It's also quite enough for track events a time or two a year. Most Viper drivers will never get good enough on a track once or twice a year to warrant a huge expenditure for brakes. Do I wish our car had the braking capability of a GEN III...You bet. Is it really necessary for street driving a few thousand miles a year--probably not. Tom's upgrade stops the car fast, quite nicely. In fact, over 2 track events, I actually wore out the rear pads before the fronts. (prop. valve out)

Something else to consider is the pads. For 4 years I traded off from EBCs on the street to OEMs for track stuff. After the rear brake upgrade, I now run B3s (also Tom's recommendation) all the time, putting up with the dust. The reason?----safety. All of our older style cars will lock up with too much pedal, usually the RF first. I found the pedal pressure with EBCs to be totally different from the B3s. I decided I wanted to get better at reaching the limit before lock up occurs....both street and track. The only way to really do that with a non ABS car is too use the same pads all the time.

Steve
 

Catwood

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ok...that's it!

I'm putting Daves on one side of the car and Tom's on the other.

Now, based on turn 8 at willow I need to figure out which one on which side...
 
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IL96RT10

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Thanks again guys. Actually I don't go to any track events yet... but I am thinking about. I just understand how capable the car is in acceleration and I just wanted to be able to decelerate just as well if I needed too.
 

KepRght

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pre abs cars 92-00 i would pick tom or daves upgrade. with abs 01-02 i would go full gen3 with upgraded pads and rotors. all 3 options are much better then stock.
 

Leslie

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hahahaaa!


ok...that's it!

I'm putting Daves on one side of the car and Tom's on the other.

Now, based on turn 8 at willow I need to figure out which one on which side...
 
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