Blown motor - what do I do now: Part 2

[BOTTLEFED]

Ok, just quick overview of the past few months:
April - install used Roe s/c
May - tuning
June - detonation kills motor
July - pull bad motor, discussed to great lengths on forum, find cheap used motor, install
August - new motor starts making bad noises, pull motor, find bad things
September - lost

For further background, here are the threads from the previous mishap
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/615217-when-best-intentions-blow-up-engine.html
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/615257-blown-motor-what-do-i-do-now.html

 

[big-n-italian]

oh, this SUX. i am so sorry to hear that you are still having all these problems!

can you go into detail what is going on now?

 

[BOTTLEFED]

It's coming...

Chapter 1: Too good to be True
Now here are the details of the new situation.

If you remember from the previous thread I bought this used motor off ebay for very cheap ($3500). The company has a very good reputation and warrantied the motor for 1year. Compression check was very good and the motor started right up and ran great... for about 200mi.
Then one evening about a month ago I was out doing a 3rd gear pull for tuning and when I let off from WOT, the motor dies.
I pull over, and restart it. I hear a screeching sound that seems to coincide with the cam/valvetrain speed.
I nurse it back home and pull the valve covers. I see a pushrod off the rocker. I was a little relieved to see that it wasn't too bad and that I could fix it real quick. However, after putting the pushrod back in place and readjusting the rocker, the noise was still there upon startup.

To jump ahead, after doing some research on the forums and talking to Chuck, I was convinced that I had at least one collapsed lifter.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Can you just put in a new set of lifter and call it good? I would think if the company has a good rep, they would cover it.

 

[Joseph Dell]

collapsed lifters isn't that common. And on a supercharged car, it may very well be a case of pulling the heads and discovering that it ain't a lifter!

 

[Hostile]

Sounds like a roller lifter problem,bad bearing or

axel failure.

Skeeter

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Chapter 2: Does the Damage ever end??

The motor is out. The heads come off. Many lifters dead, cam is DOA as well.
I call the company that I bought the engine from. They are very friendly and willing to work this out. They said they will cover parts, I just need to cover the labor.
I want to do it right, so I call Chuck and ask what I need. We agree that I will be replacing all the topend gaskets, front cover seals & gaskets, cam, and lifters. Chuck is on it and even gets it all ordered just before he leaves for VOI

His last suggestion was to pull the oil pan off to check for anymore problems.
I thought it would just be an extra precaution to pull the pan since the noise seemed to be in the cam area, but when Chuck speaks, I listen.

The pan drops and the carnage ensues.
Two spun rod bearings. The rest are in bad shape. Two out of the three main bearings that I checked are junk. This means the rods are bad, the crankshaft needs to be repaired, and the block could be damaged as well.

 

[Joseph Dell]

I know this may be a silly question, but did you re-tune the new engine w/ the ROE and the VEC after you put it in? Or did you just run it as it was?

 

[Viper Specialty]

This is why I always recomend rebuilding what you have if possible... going the used route without at least a teardown and freshen up often results in just opening someone elses can of worms instead. It sounds to me like your engine was either from a rollover or a front-ender that took out the oil cooler.

I would advise taking the two cores that you have, find the best parts out of both, then replace the rest with new or good used, freshen up the whole thing from top to bottom and call it a day. Starting over on the blower/tuning system is probably a no-brainer as well.

If you need help or want to make sure it is done right, give us a ring and we can make it happen for you, and perhaps even help you eliminate some of your "spare parts pile" and turn it into credit/cash.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Chapter 3: New Discoveries lead to further Confusion and Distress

Things aren't looking good for this motor. The future is dismal. What to do???
More calls to Chuck. More discussions on where to go from here.
I still have my old block. I assume the crank, rods, and bearings are all good in it.
The heads are good from this new motor, as well as the pistons.
Between the two, maybe, just maybe one good motor can be forged from the two dead ones.
Chuck agrees that it may just be our only hope.

Another call to the engine's seller. He is still willing to work with me, but I can tell he doesn't want to lose his a$$ on the deal.

My original block, pistons, rods, and crank all go to the local (and only) racing engine machinist. I also take the good pistons w/rods. He sounds hopeful and seems excited to be working on a Viper V-10.
This might just work!

Today I get the call no customer wants to get from their shop.
He doesn't understand why the two sets of pistons weigh so different. He says they are even made by different companies.
I tell him they should be the same; my car is a 97 and the other motor is a 98. There were no changes to the pistons between those years.

Then it hit me.
The car had previously shown low compression in cyl10 while under the factory warranty back in 2000. The motor was sent to Arrow for a full rebuild.
The cheap ******** had put in cast pistons

The machinist is now worried that my original crank is balanced for the lighter pistons, and that the motor will need to be rebalanced for the forged pistons. He does not have the equipment to balance a V-10.
He also would need to buy a torque plate to hone out my cylinders. Since he doesn't work on V-10s, guess who pays for the new equipment?

 

[Viper Specialty]

collapsed lifters isn't that common. And on a supercharged car, it may very well be a case of pulling the heads and discovering that it ain't a lifter!

Ditto. The lifters are pretty stout. The only time I really find them damaged is when there is valve/piston contact, sometimes they have some internal damage.

On that note; If you dont have the cajones to take apart all your lifters down to the last ball and spring... DONT RE-USE THEM after any type of catastropic failure! You would be amazed what kinds of neat stuff you can find in them sometimes...

 

[Viper Specialty]

Chapter 3: New Discoveries lead to further Confusion and Distress

Things aren't looking good for this motor. The future is dismal. What to do???
More calls to Chuck. More discussions on where to go from here.
I still have my old block. I assume the crank, rods, and bearings are all good in it.
The heads are good from this new motor, as well as the pistons.
Between the two, maybe, just maybe one good motor can be forged from the two dead ones.
Chuck agrees that it may just be our only hope.

Another call to the engine's seller. He is still willing to work with me, but I can tell he doesn't want to lose his a$$ on the deal.

My original block, pistons, rods, and crank all go to the local (and only) racing engine machinist. I also take the good pistons w/rods. He sounds hopeful and seems excited to be working on a Viper V-10.
This might just work!

Today I get the call no customer wants to get from their shop.
He doesn't understand why the two sets of pistons weigh so different. He says they are even made by different companies.
I tell him they should be the same; my car is a 97 and the other motor is a 98. There were no changes to the pistons between those years.

Then it hit me.
The car had previously shown low compression in cyl10 while under the factory warranty back in 2000. The motor was sent to Arrow for a full rebuild.
The cheap ******** had put in cast pistons

The machinist is now worried that my original crank is balanced for the lighter pistons, and that the motor will need to be rebalanced for the forged pistons. He does not have the equipment to balance a V-10.
He also would need to buy a torque plate to home out my cylinders. Since he doesn't work on V-10s, guess who pays for the new equipment?

Eeesh. I dont mean to push....

Put the engines on a pallet. Ship here. Problem solved.

In all seriousness, if it comes down to it, we can balance the crank for you and/or hone w/tq plates, add a custom set of rods and pistons if you wish meant for that application, etc, etc. Just get it done right whatever you do.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Time to cut your losses and send the engine block(s) out. The small price to pay will get you taken care of 100% properly without having to acquire a torque plate or deal with the fact that rod lengths in the 2000-spec motors are different than that of the 97 motor.

Arrow wasn't being cheap when they replaced the components. They just replaced the components with what they replaced ALL motors at the time with: the standard of the day. Which happened to be a cast piston set-up.

Your crank from the old motor is the same but needs to be balanced ($125 or so from any viper engine balancing crank place). The rods and pistons... those are different.

[edit] - Daniel got his post in a few seconds before I got mine in. If you want this done trouble-free, ship the block to a viper specialist. period. the end.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I know this may be a silly question, but did you re-tune the new engine w/ the ROE and the VEC after you put it in? Or did you just run it as it was?

Yes, I was in the process of retuning. I dropped down to a 5# pulley (from a 10 on blown motor), so I started over with a new tune from Sean. I even sent the Vec2 to him for the upgrade to the Vec3 before I started.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Right now, I'm not sure if I it is even worth keeping the bought motor or if I should just send it back for a refund.
I could take the $3500 and put it into the original motor. However, I would still need pistons and heads. And I would have to pay for a rebalance, gaskets & seals, bearings, honing, and any other machine work that is required.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Right now, I'm not sure if I it is even worth keeping the bought motor or if I should just send it back for a refund.
I could take the $3500 and put it into the original motor. However, I would still need pistons and heads. And I would have to pay for a rebalance, gaskets & seals, honing, and any other machine work that is required.

From the sounds of it, absolutely not worth keeping. The original block would be a far better platform to start rebuilding.

Pistons: Custom all the way anyway + better bearings/rings, but will need a rebalance on the crank, maybe bore & hone w/Tq plates.
Heads: Have a set of G2's sitting on the shelf if you need them.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

The other disturbing issue with this bad motor is the rust I found on everything. The seller claims a mechanic pulled the oilpan and inspected the insides. How could you miss this

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comparing my original lifter with the bad lifter - notice the rust

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pistons from the used motor - stained in rust

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just a small sample of the bearings I removed for inspection

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You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Viper Specialty]

That engine is a mess. I would send it back... it looks like it sat outside for a couple years. You dont want those parts in your engine if you can help it.

PS- can you send better pic of the pistons? From that angle, those LOOK like Forged slugs, not hypereutectic later versions.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

yes, those are the forged pistons that came out of the used motor I bought
what I found out is the pistons in my original motor were cast, even though it was a 97 car

 

[99 R/T 10]

Tim, send that engine back. Take the money and put it into another set of heads($800-$1000) and rebuild the engine. Not sure how much the normal viper engine rebuild cost, maybe $3000?

 

[2001 GTS]

I got a great set of used heads from Paul Sharf for $400. Give him a call!

 

[SquadX]

Man, I feel your pain, on a small scale but never-the-less. I would get the money back and as many have stated, send it out to a Viper pro and get that engine built up right instead of wasting more money on hoping/guessing. I am sure you could have the engine built up to handle 1000rwhp for 5k (quote I recieved) or back to stock specs. for 3k or slightly less.

That used engine you purchased looks like sh#t. Can you PM me the man so I know not to order anything from them. Are you sure they will refund your money in full?

I had issues with my car, different area and with all the running around, shipping cost, time, its just not worth. Send to a pro and be done. You will never get the time or shipping cost back which *****.

I have a set of 01 heads I just swapped out that I might be parting with if interested along with stock pushrods and rollers and springs.

Also, why do you have cast pistons in your 97', was it a rebuild or ??? Just seems odd.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Man, I feel your pain, on a small scale but never-the-less. I would get the money back and as many have stated, send it out to a Viper pro and get that engine built up right instead of wasting more money on hoping/guessing. I am sure you could have the engine built up to handle 1000rwhp for 5k (quote I recieved) or back to stock specs. for 3k or slightly less.

That used engine you purchased looks like sh#t. Can you PM me the man so I know not to order anything from them. Are you sure they will refund your money in full?

I had issues with my car, different area and with all the running around, shipping cost, time, its just not worth. Send to a pro and be done. You will never get the time or shipping cost back which *****.

I have a set of 01 heads I just swapped out that I might be parting with if interested along with stock pushrods and rollers and springs.

Also, why do you have cast pistons in your 97', was it a rebuild or ??? Just seems odd.

see chapter 3

If you look in the previous installment of this saga (blown motor.. what do I do now), you'll see a link to the company that I bought it from. I don't want to say who it is until I talk to them some more, but lets just say it isn't anyone in the Viper community.

 

[RTTTTed]

I feel for ya. Doesn't the old block need sleeves?

With the 'newer' engine you got T&D 1.7/1 roller rockers ($1,000+) and forged pistons ($$$). Rings, bearings and gaskets shouldn't cost very much. Crank grind doesn't cost much. Get the rods measured for egg shaping to see if they need to be resized. With such low miles on the engine you should be able to hone the cyliners yourself without a problem?

Ted

 

[CarterViper]

Sorry about your troubles. I am blowing through pokey tomorrow afternoon. How does the weather look. I am coming up to go fishing for a few days.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I'm on my way to CA for the weekend
weather should be great - 70s

 

[Kmrumedy]

What is the latest on your engine?

 

[BOTTLEFED]

not much right now
more info coming this week

 

[BOTTLEFED]

OK, got my next motor shipped in and am in the process of getting it ready to install.
One major problem is that it only has cast pistons. It is nobody's fault (except cheapness on Arrow's part). It was out of a '98 and the person that sold it to me did not know it had been rebuilt with cast pistons. I found out when I dropped the oil pan to inspect the bearings and internals.
Guess I'll be stuck at 5# for now

I hope to be dropping the motor in this weekend

I'll update this thread with pics as I get it installed and running again

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Sorry I"m late to the party. For the record, a lifter can fail without any help. On my stock (internals) engine, I had a roller lifter lose a washer that holds the rollers in place. When the roller needles started to fall out, the roller stopped rolling and the screetch was loud like a pulley bearing or slipping belt, but it doesn't go away. It quickly wipes off a cam lobe. The OEM replacements are from an Asian V-6 engine.

Anyway, best luck with the new (-er) engine.