Why are Viper headers so GD expensive? It's absolutely ridiculous! I'm sure someone with some knowledge can copy a set of B&B's and make a killing selling them for $800. Anyone out there that can do this? Who's interested? I heard that a local Viper tuner was considering this but just hasn't gotten around to it with his busy schedule.
Can someone make us a cheaper header?
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C O D Y
Enthusiast
Can't sell enough to make it worth doing. It's different if you are making them for a Vette or Mustang. VOLUME keeps the price down.
The factory headers ('98 to '02) flow VERY well compared to after market. Don't believe all the hype of HP numbers with headers if you have '98 headers already.
The factory headers ('98 to '02) flow VERY well compared to after market. Don't believe all the hype of HP numbers with headers if you have '98 headers already.
Ratech
Enthusiast
I'm sure someone with some knowledge can copy a set of B&B's and make a killing selling them for $800. Anyone out there that can do this?
China can!
China can!
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
I agree headers are unreasonably priced, personally I won't pay more than 1K for a set which explains why I don't have any, but to think anybody with a tubing bender could knock them out for the price of a Mustang header is niave.
GTSnake
Enthusiast
Maybe so but it will rust in about 2 months and be made from tin foil. Try to get any type of support after the purchase and you'll have to call someone at 1am.
They are making great strides in manufacturing but need another 10 years to become competitive in high quality standards. They are where Japan was in the 60's and 70's. Remember when "made in Japan" meant cheap, disposable stuff.
HARDVIPER
Enthusiast
My sister-in-law's pretty cheap.
GTS Bruce
Enthusiast
The stock "headers" are pieces of Krap.They look like they have been beat on and squashed with a sledge hammer when you see them off the car.These pieces of shiP do not resemble or function like serious headers with collectors in any way shape or form.Yes after market improve HP and torque.No,not that much as far as price goes but the stock pieces of shiP are embarassing and an eyesore. GTS Bruce
I hear the VOLUME keeping the price down argument over and over again, but that's mostly true if you're contracting a firm to have them made ready for you to resell, or at least bend the tubing to your specs for you to later sell retail isn't it?
If someone's making them himself to sell, every header set sold is some profit, no?
Sure many shops that sell header parts give a discount based on how much your spending-but I haven't seen where the discount is large enough to make a big difference in end retail price.
If someone's making them himself to sell, every header set sold is some profit, no?
Sure many shops that sell header parts give a discount based on how much your spending-but I haven't seen where the discount is large enough to make a big difference in end retail price.
Asp Man
Enthusiast
It's the R&D that would sink you. You could just copy a B&B or Belanger, but what have you acomplished? The material cost is a small part of it. Labour and repeatable, reliable, warantee-able results will be the biggest part of the end price.
So, if you could make them in China, with good quality stainless, on well researched design/fixturing then someone would. The kicker is that once you've made a product as good as anything else out there, why not sell it for just as much? Supply and demand.
So, if you could make them in China, with good quality stainless, on well researched design/fixturing then someone would. The kicker is that once you've made a product as good as anything else out there, why not sell it for just as much? Supply and demand.
PhoenixGTS
Enthusiast
I have watched both Lou Belanger and the crew at B&B make headers (two different worlds getting to a similar end). It is a lot easier for B&B as they have some amazing equipment in their 100,000 square foot building (water cutters/CNC benders/tooling for stamping their own collectors) but even for them there is a lot of trimming time and hand welding/fabrication time. They are expensive, but they are expensive for a reason. Lou's jigs alone are unbelievable. Heck the ceramic coating costs him way over $100 so there is 12.5% of your $800 retail price right there (more like 20%+ of the wholesale price).
While living in the Philippines a few years ago, I bought a locally made stainless steel muffler with angled end cap for my 200cc Honda enduro (biggest cc available there..) with intermediate pipe for about $30. Same thing at XRs Only cost $240.00.
Lots of cheap labor around the world..
The owner had a little shop with some small presses turning out parts, and some guys hammering away on other items. You'd see someone from the shop carrying a set of expansion chambers down the street to be chromed.
Lots of cheap labor around the world..
The owner had a little shop with some small presses turning out parts, and some guys hammering away on other items. You'd see someone from the shop carrying a set of expansion chambers down the street to be chromed.Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
doing a one-off wouldn't be bad. mass producing it is likely to get someone sued.
I wouldn't say you could make a killing at $800 unless they were like the Belanger headers which are using an inexpensive material like mild steel, and then coating them. Stainless steel is at least three times more expensive as a raw material than mild steel. Stainless steel is also harder to bend and work with than mild steel. I'm not hammering on Belanger headers, but you simply can't compare the quality of materials and manufacturing to a B&B header or better yet an SVS header. If Kook's or LG were making a header for the Viper as they do for the Vettes, they would blow the competition out the door with quality/horsepower per dollar spent. A few of years ago when I still had my Vette, I remember seeing the complete LG exhaust with merge collectors, x-pipe, cats etc. for $1,800. Very high quality, though not as nice as a cnc machined flange, burns collector, v-band set up, but certainly better than most of the available Viper headers.
REDSLED
Enthusiast
LG doesn't make their own headers. Borla makes them for Lou and he markets them under his name.
PhoenixGTS
Enthusiast
The designs are so straightforward they are not protectable. Heck the B&B Tri-Y is a straight lift of Jerry Belanger's original. Belanger would not make them out of stainless for a particular wholesale customer so they went to B&B and talked them into making a stainless version.
SNKEBIT
Enthusiast
You can't do it for 800 bucks, no profit. Been there, tried that.
I don't understand the s.s. mindset, sounds like a tin can and most of you posers have them coated anyway. (headers) The thick wall mild steel pipe sounds better, deeper tone.
Do you work on vipers? That statement was assinine.
A mild steel header can be manufactured for $800. If you don't understand why stainless is a superior material, look to the OEM's. This has nothing to do with horsepower levels or tone. The original question was if a header can be built for $800. Your lack of understanding in fabrication and metalurgy is painfully obvious.
Jerome Sparich
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You might want to check into that. I did see an ad for Viper headers by Kooks on a board that they happen to be a site sponsor on.
Edit: Waiting on a reply from them right now on this.
Jerome Sparich
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Kooks headers are done
Waiting for a return call now with more info. They are closed now, but George may call me back today.
Jerome Sparich
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No idea on price or what Gen. they fit.
George did call me back, but he is on his way out for the day. I will be talking with him tomorrow about this and will post the info at night when I get home.
WRONG, x 2
OE tube headers 1998+ flow very well vs. OE Cast Manifolds 92-97. Period.
But they dont even come CLOSE to the flow of a good performance header like
Belanger, B+B. THE YEAR MATTERS, but 3 years of Vipers can yield +50HP from headers! No Hype, but fact. Proven on dyno after dyno. Other MYs yield 25-40 HP. [I had a LONG talk with some key Team Viper guys back in 1998 when they did NOT step up to a true performance header. Short answer: Blame the FEDS.]
And the TORQUE figures are REAL, PROVEN, and not hype. Ask anyone who has beaten you at the drags......they have PERFORMANCE HEADERS.
[ AGREED, V10 price is indeed high, due to insufficient sales volume. Several small shops have tried to produce a quality, INEXPENSIVE, hi-flow header and gave up....Shops like CALDWELL charged $3700+ ]
SNKEBIT
Enthusiast
I understood the question. You can make mild steel headers for 800 bucks, BUT THERE'S NO PROFIT! So why do it?
I understand why oem uses stainless, IT DOESN'T RUST OUT.
Lack of understanding in fabrication and metalurgy???? WOW!
How many race cars, hot rods, or street rods have you built lately?
If it's possible to make a mild steel header for 800 bucks, why aren't you making them?
REDSLED
Enthusiast
I have a set of CALDWELL (CDI) stepped headers for sale. Way way way less than $3700.
C O D Y
Enthusiast
Here's a set of Borla for $700.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Vip...sspagenameZWDVW
ebay #220046804938
In the long run your car will be worth more with factory parts on it. Just my 2 cents. SAVE YOUR ORIGINAL PARTS if you waste your money with aftermarket parts.... or sell them to me!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Vip...sspagenameZWDVW
ebay #220046804938
In the long run your car will be worth more with factory parts on it. Just my 2 cents. SAVE YOUR ORIGINAL PARTS if you waste your money with aftermarket parts.... or sell them to me!
I understood the question. You can make mild steel headers for 800 bucks, BUT THERE'S NO PROFIT! So why do it?
I understand why oem uses stainless, IT DOESN'T RUST OUT.
Lack of understanding in fabrication and metalurgy???? WOW!
How many race cars, hot rods, or street rods have you built lately?
If it's possible to make a mild steel header for 800 bucks, why aren't you making them?
Actually if your ever in SoCal, give me a buzz and I'd be happy to show you my work. My original post was merely pointing out that you couldn't make a killing building stainless headers for $800.00. It can be done with a profit at $800.00 out of mild steel. All headers are not alike, as I'm sure you understand. Varying levels of quality, material thickness, flange type, finishing quality, TIG or MIG welded, fully puged TIG welding, v-bands, standard collectors, merge type, stepped tube etc. A basic non-stepped, stamped steel flange, non merge collected header can be manufactured in the $ 800.00 range with a profit.
The real question is why would you? I'm a perfectionist, and demand the highest levels of quality. I would not produce any product that I felt was using sub par materials. Additionally if the person in one of the earlier posts is correct, stating that LG headers are made by Borla, it just shows you that LG is profitable at their price point, even tough they are sub contracting the work through Borla.
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