Dealer Upgrade Package - Worth The Price?
- Thread starter King RT10
- Start date
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
JTV,
I personally think that $10k is way too much for that package. I would comment on Chuck's pricing list by saying that the MSD wires are only $80 from carparts.com - shipped - and the best (and most expensive) rockers I've seen are the T&D's (same as Mopar) which sell for, I believe, $1100 a set - retail. Probably can get 'em for less from some of the tuners. These are the prices that the tuners are selling this stuff for, so I would imagine a tuner pays a lot less than we're quoting for these parts.
Installation on the parts listed isn't too bad - with the most time consuming parts being the gears, headers and rockers. I would think a good Viper tech could do all this in a day... so what's that? $1k for labor? Any way you slice it, there is a fat markup on those prices.
For $12k, Doug Levin will install a supercharger on your snake to the tune of 600hp. Now that's REAL power!
As for the warranty issue, the law states that warranty work can only be denied if aftermarket parts could reasonably be assumed to have caused the failure. You won't get denied motor work for having a cat back, but if you throw a rod, they could definitely say the rockers had something to do with it. Each warranty claim is a judgement issue. Obviously, Fitzgerald has already determined that this package will not harm the motor, and therfore all claims will be allowed - and this certainly has some value in it. They can't, however, guarantee you that you would not be denied warranty work somewhere else.
Adam, I agree with what you said... I think it should really be called a "500" package - quoting the torque number seems a little misleading to me.
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Mike Brunton on December 11, 2000 at 18:26</font>
I personally think that $10k is way too much for that package. I would comment on Chuck's pricing list by saying that the MSD wires are only $80 from carparts.com - shipped - and the best (and most expensive) rockers I've seen are the T&D's (same as Mopar) which sell for, I believe, $1100 a set - retail. Probably can get 'em for less from some of the tuners. These are the prices that the tuners are selling this stuff for, so I would imagine a tuner pays a lot less than we're quoting for these parts.
Installation on the parts listed isn't too bad - with the most time consuming parts being the gears, headers and rockers. I would think a good Viper tech could do all this in a day... so what's that? $1k for labor? Any way you slice it, there is a fat markup on those prices.
For $12k, Doug Levin will install a supercharger on your snake to the tune of 600hp. Now that's REAL power!
As for the warranty issue, the law states that warranty work can only be denied if aftermarket parts could reasonably be assumed to have caused the failure. You won't get denied motor work for having a cat back, but if you throw a rod, they could definitely say the rockers had something to do with it. Each warranty claim is a judgement issue. Obviously, Fitzgerald has already determined that this package will not harm the motor, and therfore all claims will be allowed - and this certainly has some value in it. They can't, however, guarantee you that you would not be denied warranty work somewhere else.
Adam, I agree with what you said... I think it should really be called a "500" package - quoting the torque number seems a little misleading to me.
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Mike Brunton on December 11, 2000 at 18:26</font>
I would add the following word of caution: a MAJOR Viper dealer(we all know and trust) felt obligated to give me a "heads up" that the HEADER package that I favored adding to a 2001 GTS being delivered in Jan could indeed POSSIBLY jeopardize engine's warranty(though cat-back should not) ...presumably(by my own interpretation) due to the increased belt-tightening by D-C and it's current management direction. With this info, we decided NOT to push our luck and opted out of headers. The times SEEM to be changing...and, as I think back upon all the potential warranty issues we have all read on this board, a QUICK, FAIR, and CLEAN resolution in favor of the Viper owner seems to be a thing of the past being replaced by a much more tedious and prolonged process. I realize above is speculative, but with a garage full(and getting "fuller") of Vipers, one needs to exercise due care. Happy Holidays to All!
Chuck 97 GTS
Enthusiast
Well lets see. You could get the majority of those parts from Roe Racing with prices as follows:
$1100 Borla Cat-back
$1200 Borla headers
$ 55 Smooth tubes
$ 70 High-flow air filters
$ 550 3.45 gear
$ 130 Speedo recalibration unit
$ 445 VEC-1 Engine calibrator (instead of Mopar Performance computer)
--------
$3550
As for the other parts I am going to make a SWAG:
$2000 Roller rocker arms
$ 200 Premium spark plug wires
This gives us a grand total of $5750. As far as the exhaust goes there are other options that will net you more power, but they will cost you more (maybe $1500-2000 more). Roller rockers are rocker arms that have a bearing at the fulcrum for less friction. This coupled with the fact that they usually go with a higher ratio (1.7) gives you a few more HP. If you go with T&D shaft style rockers you will need new pushrods too ($250 or so).
Of course everything listed above is without labor. I don't think that labor would cost $4250, so you are paying a premium for having it done at the dealer.
My $.02
$1100 Borla Cat-back
$1200 Borla headers
$ 55 Smooth tubes
$ 70 High-flow air filters
$ 550 3.45 gear
$ 130 Speedo recalibration unit
$ 445 VEC-1 Engine calibrator (instead of Mopar Performance computer)
--------
$3550
As for the other parts I am going to make a SWAG:
$2000 Roller rocker arms
$ 200 Premium spark plug wires
This gives us a grand total of $5750. As far as the exhaust goes there are other options that will net you more power, but they will cost you more (maybe $1500-2000 more). Roller rockers are rocker arms that have a bearing at the fulcrum for less friction. This coupled with the fact that they usually go with a higher ratio (1.7) gives you a few more HP. If you go with T&D shaft style rockers you will need new pushrods too ($250 or so).
Of course everything listed above is without labor. I don't think that labor would cost $4250, so you are paying a premium for having it done at the dealer.
My $.02
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
JTV,
I know I'm not the Mike you were speaking to. I bought my Viper there - they are a good bunch of guys and it's not a bad place to buy a Viper, although I had a bad experience with one of their salesmen, who is no longer there.
The package does have value... I guess the question is - does the fact that it does not affect your warranty (certainly not if Fitz is doing the work) make it worth the premium? I can see the value in that, and it's everyone's personal decision about whether that value is worth the markup. I guess it is to quite a few people - so don't feel bad about buying the package if you end up getting it.
To each his own on the package name. Every other tuner lists the HP as the name of the package... so unless you looked in the description, you'd think it was more power. 530 is a LOT of torque though!
I know I'm not the Mike you were speaking to. I bought my Viper there - they are a good bunch of guys and it's not a bad place to buy a Viper, although I had a bad experience with one of their salesmen, who is no longer there.
The package does have value... I guess the question is - does the fact that it does not affect your warranty (certainly not if Fitz is doing the work) make it worth the premium? I can see the value in that, and it's everyone's personal decision about whether that value is worth the markup. I guess it is to quite a few people - so don't feel bad about buying the package if you end up getting it.
To each his own on the package name. Every other tuner lists the HP as the name of the package... so unless you looked in the description, you'd think it was more power. 530 is a LOT of torque though!
AviP
Enthusiast
I bought my GTS from them in 97. They are great and the techies are good. Would recommend them to anyone. Too bad I moved from MA to NJ. If they weren't 350 miles away from me, I'd drive there to get my service done.
Marc Lublin
Enthusiast
I may not be the norm, but I am not too big on warranties anyway. I generally don't like to have someone else touching my cars, and if I have a motor problem I would consider it time to bite the bullet and pay for any parts I might need. The fun I have with a fully modified car outweighs my fear of having a problem down the road. I took my 3 week old 2000 and pulled the motor completely apart and now am just waiting on the heads to return from my machine shop. Just my 2 cents!
bad viper
Enthusiast
I'm with you Marc I didn't buy my car and live in fear that if I modify it,break it then Dodge won't warranty it...........
could care less about what I save...ownership of this
marque is more about HOW MUCH YOU ENJOY IT'S Potential!!!!!!!!!!!
could care less about what I save...ownership of this
marque is more about HOW MUCH YOU ENJOY IT'S Potential!!!!!!!!!!!
luc
Enthusiast
So,If I crunch the #s correctly,we are talking $10.000 for an increase of 58hp or 12.88%
and 40lbs or 8.16%
or $172 per hp and/or $250 per lb.
Like almost everything with Vipers it is way overpriced,If I am correct ,$10,000 is more or less the price of a "new crate" engine.
But as long that you have peoples willing to get only 50 to 60 cents worth for every 1$ they spend,why should thoses dealers/retailers/tuners /etc,change their price structure?.
Kernie,I am glad to know that after spending $10,000, you new Viper "FEELS FASTER" than your 99.
Did you got a dyno sheet to verify thoses #s ?
Luc.
PS.Do they give you a credit for the brand new set of rear end gears that they remove from the car? (assuming that they are keeping it)
and 40lbs or 8.16%
or $172 per hp and/or $250 per lb.
Like almost everything with Vipers it is way overpriced,If I am correct ,$10,000 is more or less the price of a "new crate" engine.
But as long that you have peoples willing to get only 50 to 60 cents worth for every 1$ they spend,why should thoses dealers/retailers/tuners /etc,change their price structure?.
Kernie,I am glad to know that after spending $10,000, you new Viper "FEELS FASTER" than your 99.
Did you got a dyno sheet to verify thoses #s ?
Luc.
PS.Do they give you a credit for the brand new set of rear end gears that they remove from the car? (assuming that they are keeping it)
Tom and Vipers
Enthusiast
I think there needs to be some clarification,
Is the new package 508 rwph, 530 engine hp,
this is compared to say 410 rwph, 450 engine hp Stock?
So this package is more like +100 HP give or take?
Is the new package 508 rwph, 530 engine hp,
this is compared to say 410 rwph, 450 engine hp Stock?
So this package is more like +100 HP give or take?
>Kernie,I am glad to know that after spending $10,000, you new >Viper "FEELS FASTER" than your 99.
>Did you got a dyno sheet to verify thoses #s ?
>Luc.
Actually, I didn't pay anything extra for the
Snake package. I won this car on Ebay, a 2000 GTS
with 600 miles plus the Snake 530 and I got
it all for 65K.
I doubt I would have paid the extra 10 grand, but
I would have paid somewhere around 5 to have the
new exhaust put on, so to me it's only a little
overpriced.
As for the gears it's hard to tell what type of
difference they make, but it does seem to
accelerate a little faster than the last one.
>Did you got a dyno sheet to verify thoses #s ?
>Luc.
Actually, I didn't pay anything extra for the
Snake package. I won this car on Ebay, a 2000 GTS
with 600 miles plus the Snake 530 and I got
it all for 65K.
I doubt I would have paid the extra 10 grand, but
I would have paid somewhere around 5 to have the
new exhaust put on, so to me it's only a little
overpriced.
As for the gears it's hard to tell what type of
difference they make, but it does seem to
accelerate a little faster than the last one.
pauljkopick
Viper Owner
i have a 00 red/silver gts,many mod 8k or more. i was interested in the 530snake,my quote was 18k straight(difference)for a plain striped 01gts,28k if i wanted the 530,& 38k for a 530 acr.thats a BIG NO THANKS TO MIKE B. AT FITZS.
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
Wow, this is an old thread, resurrected!
Tomatpetr,
It is 508 at the ENGINE. When you look at the mods, the only ones that produce power are the K&N's, smooth tubes and the headers. They are probably good for a (very) conservative 30hp to the wheels, so if you're dynoing at 432 or so with these mods (which is pretty typical), and given a 15% driveline loss (kinda high IMO), that's right at 508hp.
If you could pick up 100+hp from just headers, K&Ns and smoothies, lots of people would be lining up to pay $10k for this kit (me included).
To spend $10k and get 500RWHP, you're really looking at a forced induction kit, or a relatively inexpensive heads/cam job (inexpensive meaning not produced by any of the "big name" tuners).
Tomatpetr,
It is 508 at the ENGINE. When you look at the mods, the only ones that produce power are the K&N's, smooth tubes and the headers. They are probably good for a (very) conservative 30hp to the wheels, so if you're dynoing at 432 or so with these mods (which is pretty typical), and given a 15% driveline loss (kinda high IMO), that's right at 508hp.
If you could pick up 100+hp from just headers, K&Ns and smoothies, lots of people would be lining up to pay $10k for this kit (me included).
To spend $10k and get 500RWHP, you're really looking at a forced induction kit, or a relatively inexpensive heads/cam job (inexpensive meaning not produced by any of the "big name" tuners).
