forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at rear?

Joseph Dell

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So I've been testing supercharger and turbo setups on vipers for quite a while. In some recent testing, i have noticed _dramatic_ differences in boost measurements when those measurements are taken at the front of the intake manifold vs. at the rear. With low boost, i've seen a 1psi difference. Yesterday, we'd see 16psi on the front and 13 on the rear. What the heck is going on here? I can't imagine I'm losing 3psi from front to back... something doesn't make sense.

Intake gasket leak? I aleready checked... it isn't that.

Any ideas (theoretical or practical)? Thanks!

JD :nana: :nana: :nana:
 

hemibeep

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my guess, loss of energy as pressure travels from source.

thinking this is also part of equal length tubes on high end headers, equal distance from port to collector, thus balancing the pulse.
 

phiebert

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Here are my thoughts. Purely theoretical.

Here's an anology using water into a hot tub instead of air into the engine. Water and air don't act that different, water is just much more dense so it takes longer to react and is more tangible so it is easier to follow. If you feel the "pressure" at a hot tub jet it is much higher than the pressure a couple feet away from the jet. If you boxed in a hot tub jet so the water couldn't escape you would have a set up much like the intake manifold. In a couple seconds the pressure inside your water box would be even and match the pressure coming in at the jet. But for the first couple seconds there would still be more pressure near the jet than at the back of the box, until the water had a chance to equalize. Now if you drilled holes in your water box and had valves that opened regularly letting water out, like the engine valves do by letting air into the cylinders, your pressure may never equalize because you are always putting more pressure in at the jet but letting water (and pressure) out before it gets to the back of the box. I'm guessing that is the same thing that is happening in an engine and probably is more noticeable in a large engine where the distance the air has to travel and the number of cylinders letting it out is higher.

I'm guessing that one way to solve this and get even pressure to the back cylinders as well would be to create your own rear intake in addition to the front intake, branch off the supercharger and have it go through an equal distance of tubing before entering the front and the back. This would still give you slightly lower pressure in the middle. The ultimate answer would be to have each cylinder have its own intake!

The reason for my theory is that I noticed this with Nitrous too. The front cylinders get more NOS than the rear ones when the NOS is squirted in through the intake tubes. Basically the front cylinders are sucking in a higher concentrated mix of air and Nitrous than the rear cylinders which are really scavenging what ever they can get. It's a little easier to correct with NOS because you can use systems that inject at each cylinder.

All this is based on the assumption that you were measuring the pressure with the engine running. If you just added pressure and the front was higher than the back than like you said there must be some kind of leak.
 

joe117

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How about making these front and rear pressure measurments on a car without a blower.

Will you see three pounds difference in pressure?
Of course, it isn't going to be positive pressure, but will there be a difference?

Could the difference you measure have anything to do with the temperature of the air changing as it moves through the manifold?
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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my guess, loss of energy as pressure travels from source.

thinking this is also part of equal length tubes on high end headers, equal distance from port to collector, thus balancing the pulse.

That would be my guess.
 

opnwide

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

Q:Why do my sprinklers closer to the water meter have more pressure than the ones farthest from the water meter?
A:Fluid dynamics (a course that made me change majors at UT)
 

Schulmann

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

Joseph,

I am currious how did you mesure the difference. This test sound very very interesting. Tell us more about your test !

If you are talking about the Roe supercharger ...

My theory:

Issue is related to pressure wave speed rather than to energy loss.
Energy loss is negligable due to the distance that air has to travel.


When the supercharger increases pressure in intake chamber air density increases. In denser air pressure waves travel faster. When pressure wave speed is same as piston speed there is no difference in pressure between cylinders.

Difference should only be there when under vacuum.
Under boost the difference should be mininal.
The front intakes are closer to pressure source.
Air has less distance to travel to front intakes under vacuum.

Under 16psi there should not be any difference !

Under that air density (16psi) the pressure wave is faster than the piston speed.

The Roe intake chamber is very large so the pressure distribution is quite equal under that boost.

Then you have the intake runner lenght were energy loss counts a lot when reving the engine above 4000rpm. Runners are short in the Roe supercharger to increase the speed of the air and to reduce energy loss. Since the speed increases in the runners the friction increases too. However the runners are short in the Roe supercher thus energy loss is minimal. In addition this energy loss is the same across all cylinders. So energy loss has nothing to do with pressure distribution.
 
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Joseph Dell

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

Measurements were taken using two identical electronic gauges. The ****** at the front driver's side of the intake had the 1st reading and the ****** at the rear driver's side of the intake had the 2nd reading.

I had always noticed a 1psi pressure reading difference with my paxton set-up. Now, when tuning other people's cars with either paxton, procharger, or even a TT, i've noticed greater discrepencies.

But should the generator of the pressure really matter? That is to say that 15psi from a paxton or procharger... doesn't matter. Unless the ****** in the back of the intake isn't a reliable place to take a boost sample.

could that be the issue?

interesting...

JD
 

Viper TT/10

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

Joseph,

I am currious how did you mesure the difference. This test sound very very interesting. Tell us more about your test !

If you are talking about the Roe supercharger ...

My theory:

Issue is related to pressure wave speed rather than to energy loss.
Energy loss is negligable due to the distance that air has to travel.


When the supercharger increases pressure in intake chamber air density increases. In denser air pressure waves travel faster. When pressure wave speed is same as piston speed there is no difference in pressure between cylinders.

Difference should only be there when under vacuum.
Under boost the difference should be mininal.
The front intakes are closer to pressure source.
Air has less distance to travel to front intakes under vacuum.

Under 16psi there should not be any difference !

Under that air density (16psi) the pressure wave is faster than the piston speed.

The Roe intake chamber is very large so the pressure distribution is quite equal under that boost.

Then you have the intake runner lenght were energy loss counts a lot when reving the engine above 4000rpm. Runners are short in the Roe supercharger to increase the speed of the air and to reduce energy loss. Since the speed increases in the runners the friction increases too. However the runners are short in the Roe supercher thus energy loss is minimal. In addition this energy loss is the same across all cylinders. So energy loss has nothing to do with pressure distribution.

if what you are saying about the roe is true, why is there a little plate that mounts under the blower available that allows air to be channeled to the rear? also why do cylinders 9 and 10 run so rich, having to take out fuel in both those cylinders and having to add more fuel in cylinders 1 and 2?
 

joe117

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

"Q:Why do my sprinklers closer to the water meter have more pressure than the ones farthest from the water meter?
A:Fluid dynamics (a course that made me change majors at UT"

Long thin hoses between the sprinklers would cause this.

The large intake compared to the size of the ports should keep this from happening in the V10.

But back in the days before port injection, the cylinders far from the carb did get a leaner mixture.

Of course, this was not just air but a fuel air mix traveling down the line.
 

99 R/T 10

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

You're all wrong! The reason for the difference is PFM..........



















:D :D :D :D :D :D :D


Good dscussion going on though :2tu:
 

Jack B

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

I must be missing something - pressure and/or vacuum are no different as it relates to fluid dynamics, air is merely opposed by the friction of the long circuitous route of the cross ram intake manifold, it just becomes more noticeable under boost. This could be why the rear cylinders on the Roe SC have had the problem with the plugs. I would have thought this was strange if there was no difference.

Another clarification about nitrous. On nitrous there can be an issue with the front cylinders trying to grab more than their share of nitrous. That may or may not be an issue, the amount of charge that can be consummed by any one cylinder is determined by the that cylinder's volumentric efficency. A more likely explanation for nitrous related failures is the fact that not all nozzles totally disperse the fuel into the nitrous. In this case a failure to a rear cylinder is even more likely because the the fuel is heavier and it falls out of the mixture as it travel to the rear.

Although there is a slight advantage to placing the nozzles further away from the throttle bodies, that can lead to fuel fallout. On most nozzles it is better to get closer to the throttle bodies, therefore, using them (collision )to further mix the nitrous and fuel.

As an after thought, the manifold is developed for a certain flow, at or near no pressure, once you start increasing that flow (and pressure)you will hit a point where you hit hydraulic resonance. I am not saying that is what is happening, but, partial resonance could be possible, at that point the impedance of the system (manifold)goes up and the flow drops. Nitrous overcomes this problem because the manifold flow is not changed, now the problem is on the exhaust side, that is why a nitrous car without a good exhaust has such peaky torque.
 

Paolo Castellano

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So I've been testing supercharger and turbo setups on vipers for quite a while. In some recent testing, i have noticed _dramatic_ differences in boost measurements when those measurements are taken at the front of the intake manifold vs. at the rear. With low boost, i've seen a 1psi difference. Yesterday, we'd see 16psi on the front and 13 on the rear. What the heck is going on here? I can't imagine I'm losing 3psi from front to back... something doesn't make sense.

Intake gasket leak? I aleready checked... it isn't that.

Any ideas (theoretical or practical)? Thanks!

JD :nana: :nana: :nana:

Joe, I think it is because the front of the manifold is measuring the restriction of the air entering the throttle bodies to begin filling the manifold.

At the back of the manifold, it is measuring after the entire plenum volume has been filled(while at the same time, each time that bank fires there is a certain volume of air being taken away for combustion purposes).

Think of it like a certain volume of air is being kidnapped for every firing! LOL!

I would think the difference will become more prevalent the more air/power you flow and the higher the RPM you turn.
 

DaDood

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Well,
Based on fluid mechanics, the further the fluid has to go(in this case air is the fluid) the more resistance the air must go through and the more loses you will see both in potential energy (pressure) and kintetic energy (velocity)no matter how smooth the tubes are. For all the engineers out there, Bernouli's equation. Energy may be being lost due frictional forces thus you are seeing a drop in potential energy (or pressure in this case). I am not an owner nor have a good idea of how far the air is traveling from the front of the intake to the rear, but the theory makes sense in this case.
Same idea with the sprinkler.
I bet if you could meassure the velocity at the rear of the intake, you would also see a lower velocity than that at the front.
Just an idea!

Credentials: 4th year Mechanical engineering major and I am a master in fluid mechanics.
 

futureacrowner

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

Phibert: Please, don't ever post on this topic ever again. Your hottub theories would be closer if you were dancing around singing marry had a little lamb.

The answer is very simple, intake manifold design. Given the engine site it has a relatively small plenum volume combined with the offset throttle bodies leads to this issue. And it's exactly why aux injectors and inline nitrous nozzles aren't such a hot idea on the viper.

And yes airspeed will be greatly reduced at the back of the manifold. Not only is there the added friction but 4 cylinders stealing air along the way. Duh!

The solution is a properly designed intake manifold.
 

phiebert

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

Phibert: Please, don't ever post on this topic ever again. Your hottub theories would be closer if you were dancing around singing marry had a little lamb.

Mary had a little lamb, little lamb, little lamb.... (picture me dancing!)

Why exactly would a theoretical analogy using water into a box to sybolize air into a chamber be so far from reasonable that I should never "post on this topic ever again"? Had I claimed to be an expert, which I didn't, and if you were one then maybe (but not really) it would warrant your response.

Sorry, I was just trying to help, he did ask for anyone's theories and I thought I'd just get the ball rolling because I'm curious about the subject as well.
 

Matt M PA

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

Sorry...can't resist...it would be "Mary" had a little lamb. "Marry"ing (sic) a little lamb would be quite different.
 

phiebert

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

Hey Matt, "marrying" a little lamb must be the farmer still in me! I grew up in the prairies...you can take a boy out of the prairies but you can't take the prairies out of the boy!

Hey future-boy, "you got yourself a purdy mouth!"
 

99 R/T 10

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

Futureboy is already known for being an idiotic troll(16 years old), but knows everything there is to know :rolleyes: Don't mind the child Phil. Good discussion going on, so carry on :2tu: :2tu:
 
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Joseph Dell

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Re: forced induction theory question: why is boost more at front than at r

depends on the type, the fuel, the timing, whether an intercooler is added or not.

Ask a manufacturer and they will say 30-60% more power. some cars have seen power outputs double with the right combination. but on this board, there have been cars that have made 850rwhp-950rwhp. some cars that are "stock" have gone from 400 to 700rwhp. Look at the SRT forum and basic paxton set-ups pull 700rwhp with NO other mods.

short answer: it depends. :)

JD
 

Russ M

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So I've been testing supercharger and turbo setups on vipers for quite a while. In some recent testing, i have noticed _dramatic_ differences in boost measurements when those measurements are taken at the front of the intake manifold vs. at the rear. With low boost, i've seen a 1psi difference. Yesterday, we'd see 16psi on the front and 13 on the rear. What the heck is going on here? I can't imagine I'm losing 3psi from front to back... something doesn't make sense.

Intake gasket leak? I aleready checked... it isn't that.

Any ideas (theoretical or practical)? Thanks!

JD :nana: :nana: :nana:

I would say its cfm, and intake manifold shape(design).
 
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