ViperJay
Viper Owner
i have a gen1 and was wondering if anyone uses fuel additives to clean the injectors. good? bad? or ugly?
fuel additives
- Thread starter ViperJay
- Start date
xlrashn
Viper Owner
I just run the BP (Amoco) Ultimate fuel and have not had an issue. However, if you want to clean the injectors, I would have a professional shop do a "Motorvac" process so you don't introduce anything too strong to the pump. I would be glad to have my lead tech at my shop do it for you.... just have to figure out how to get you to Iowa
OP
OP
ViperJay
Viper Owner
i have no issues with the injectors. they are working fine. just thinking preventative measures. i use it in my bmw every few tanks and have never had clogged injectors. didnt know if it is not recommended for a viper.
dave6666
Enthusiast
Starting point should be quality fuel. Never had any injector issues on any of my vehicles.
0.02
0.02
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Back in the good old days, the brand name gasolines had additives, lots of it, and the little stations did not. You got what you paid for. Carburetors got gunky and injectors got plugged with untreated fuel.
Along came BMW, who had a fuel injected engine that seemed to be very sensitive to injector deposits. They made a fuss in technical circles and a test using a BMW car was established. Additives that kept injectors clean coincidentally usually kept carburetors clean, although carburetors by then were disappearing.
The EPA saw this and measured the emissions effect of having some but not all injectors dirty. While an engine could compensate somewhat for decreased flow, the emissions problem was that the engine couldn't tell which injector was plugged, and would richen all of them (via the O2 sensor signal in the exhaust). Cars would drive semi-normally but get poorer fuel mileage and in bad cases, hesitate.
Therefore, the EPA mandated the use of detergent additives. Seemed like a good thing, but when the little guys started advertising that they now had detergents, their claims sounded the same as the major brands! The major brands couldn't figure out what to do, so they decreased their additives down to the minimum amount. Then everyone was the same performance, and a lower level at that.
Enter the current times... Chemists and engineers figured out how to create the least expensive additive and the lowest dose, in the special gasoline, to just barely provide adequate performance in the BMW engine test. That left other models of engines vulnerable, and indeed, injector deposit problems did come back a few years ago. In some cases deposits formed fairly quickly, which caused warranty repair issues for the OEMs when their new cars would not behave properly.
Chevron and a few other majors worked with the car companies to establish a higher testing standard and the result was "Top Tier" fuel. This was supposed to allow the gasoline marketers to use higher levels of detergents and have a way to show that the higher level was better (or at least "different" in a marketing sense.)
I think the idea was good, but the follow through was a flop. If they advertise this higher performance level, I don't see it anywhere. The majors are back to trying to compare their higher additive level to the lower level in ordinary fuel simply by saying so - and very subtlely at that. Probably the best example is Shell and the commercials that use Kevin Harvick... the scientist says that Shell gasoline cleans deposits that ordinary gasolines leave behind. I will tell you (from being one of those engineers in the past) that the previous sentence does not mean that Shell gasoline cleans up (i.e. removes) deposits that have previously formed from the use of ordinary gasoline. It means that the use of Shell gasoline won't allow deposits to form like ordinary gasoline might.
Anyway, I'm afraid there is no sure-fire way for a consumer to know how good the cleanliness of a gasoline is. For instance, Mobil uses more detergent in the Super and far less in the mid- and regular. In fact, we used Mobil regular as the "poor reference" fuel.
So what to do? Deposits that might affect performance form, under the worst case, in ~5000 miles. Normal use it probably takes longer. However, that coincides with an oil drain interval. Buy yourself a bottle of "total fuel system cleaner" and not "injector cleaner" and put it in the gas tank two-fillups before your oil change. First, the "complete" or "total" system cleaner has more additive in it than the injector cleaner. Second, these additives are bigger molecules than gasoline and a healthy amount of it gets on the cylinder wall and into the oil. You don't want these additives in the oil for a long time, so by treating your engine just before the oil change, you won't be handing your new oil charge a handicap it has to deal with for the next 5000 miles.
As for the bottles, that is even more difficult to know what is good or not, since the test requirements are far less stringent than for gasolines. I would advise to purchase oil company branded bottles, since they have the technical know-how to test the additive and the purchasing power to buy good ingredients at reasonable costs. There aren't too many local brands that have the same technical horsepower, testing budget, or purchasing power to do as well.
Along came BMW, who had a fuel injected engine that seemed to be very sensitive to injector deposits. They made a fuss in technical circles and a test using a BMW car was established. Additives that kept injectors clean coincidentally usually kept carburetors clean, although carburetors by then were disappearing.
The EPA saw this and measured the emissions effect of having some but not all injectors dirty. While an engine could compensate somewhat for decreased flow, the emissions problem was that the engine couldn't tell which injector was plugged, and would richen all of them (via the O2 sensor signal in the exhaust). Cars would drive semi-normally but get poorer fuel mileage and in bad cases, hesitate.
Therefore, the EPA mandated the use of detergent additives. Seemed like a good thing, but when the little guys started advertising that they now had detergents, their claims sounded the same as the major brands! The major brands couldn't figure out what to do, so they decreased their additives down to the minimum amount. Then everyone was the same performance, and a lower level at that.
Enter the current times... Chemists and engineers figured out how to create the least expensive additive and the lowest dose, in the special gasoline, to just barely provide adequate performance in the BMW engine test. That left other models of engines vulnerable, and indeed, injector deposit problems did come back a few years ago. In some cases deposits formed fairly quickly, which caused warranty repair issues for the OEMs when their new cars would not behave properly.
Chevron and a few other majors worked with the car companies to establish a higher testing standard and the result was "Top Tier" fuel. This was supposed to allow the gasoline marketers to use higher levels of detergents and have a way to show that the higher level was better (or at least "different" in a marketing sense.)
I think the idea was good, but the follow through was a flop. If they advertise this higher performance level, I don't see it anywhere. The majors are back to trying to compare their higher additive level to the lower level in ordinary fuel simply by saying so - and very subtlely at that. Probably the best example is Shell and the commercials that use Kevin Harvick... the scientist says that Shell gasoline cleans deposits that ordinary gasolines leave behind. I will tell you (from being one of those engineers in the past) that the previous sentence does not mean that Shell gasoline cleans up (i.e. removes) deposits that have previously formed from the use of ordinary gasoline. It means that the use of Shell gasoline won't allow deposits to form like ordinary gasoline might.
Anyway, I'm afraid there is no sure-fire way for a consumer to know how good the cleanliness of a gasoline is. For instance, Mobil uses more detergent in the Super and far less in the mid- and regular. In fact, we used Mobil regular as the "poor reference" fuel.
So what to do? Deposits that might affect performance form, under the worst case, in ~5000 miles. Normal use it probably takes longer. However, that coincides with an oil drain interval. Buy yourself a bottle of "total fuel system cleaner" and not "injector cleaner" and put it in the gas tank two-fillups before your oil change. First, the "complete" or "total" system cleaner has more additive in it than the injector cleaner. Second, these additives are bigger molecules than gasoline and a healthy amount of it gets on the cylinder wall and into the oil. You don't want these additives in the oil for a long time, so by treating your engine just before the oil change, you won't be handing your new oil charge a handicap it has to deal with for the next 5000 miles.
As for the bottles, that is even more difficult to know what is good or not, since the test requirements are far less stringent than for gasolines. I would advise to purchase oil company branded bottles, since they have the technical know-how to test the additive and the purchasing power to buy good ingredients at reasonable costs. There aren't too many local brands that have the same technical horsepower, testing budget, or purchasing power to do as well.
GTS Bruce
Enthusiast
If you're worried.Techron before an oil change.
dave6666
Enthusiast
Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night Tom?
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
No Holiday Inn, just 21 years at Texaco, then 2 at Chevron, and now occasionally working with small oil and additive companies. It's always surprising how little the general public knows and how much the fuel and lubricants you purchase change through the years, so I have the urge to do a brain dump whenever the opportunity comes along. So I'll go save that nuclear reactor and finish that deadly germ analysis now....
Ben Stein? His Wikipedia entry shows how varied his background is, so I think I'm impressed with your compliment! Thanks!
Ben Stein? His Wikipedia entry shows how varied his background is, so I think I'm impressed with your compliment! Thanks!
