Gen 2 engine Vs. Gen 3

[Viper Specialty]

Hmm... I am at a bit of a loss here. I am just wandering around the web looking at specs, posts, opinions and pictures of the Gen 3 engine. this is what I have come up with:

Ok, considering the 3 main changes to the gen 3 engine, Intake, headers, and displacement:

If you take a gen 2 engine, 450HP/488TQ and give it a set of headers, increase the displacement to 8.3, and add the intake/throttle bodies/smooth tubes or the like... wouldnt you be getting more power from (basically) the same engine? if thats the case, what is the advantage of a Gen 3? it seems like the only advantage is in STOCK form.

I mean, smooth tubes alone will make a Gen 2 460 HP and 500 TQ, now, up the displacement, and (mathematically) you are at about 480 HP and 520 TQ... and thats not even including headers or any more intake mods!

Sorry if it seems like i'm not making any sense or dont have a point, but it just seems to me that DC is trying to pull a fast one... they have this "new" engine, and they upped it's stock HP to make it seem better. BUT, when you take the gen 2 and add the changes that the gen 3 got to even them out, or it's equivalent, Gen 2 has better performance than the "new and Improved" to begin with! It seems to me that maybe someone "Skimped" somehere and they added the fancy headers in intake to cover it up or somehting. I mean, you have to admit, the engine does look like it is cheapened up as far as the intake and fuel system go.

Opinions? Whatever? I was really bored if you guys couldnt tell...

 

[MES]

Well IMHO DC whimped out and did no real R&D to improve the Viper engine. The peak HP was raised from 5,200 to 5,600 this is good for 25 or so HP, then the extra 17CI is good for 17HP, then a new intake is say good for 10HP add them up and you get 50 more HP. Whoopty freaken doo... obviously not a lot of $$ went into the development of the new engine. Now if you compare that to the Z06, you will find the Z06 405HP engine is just about tweaked out from the factory. They spent a lot of time and $$ for R&D to get the most possible out of that motor. Compare (405HP/346CI=1.17 HP/CI) and (500HP/505CI=.99 HP/CI) if the Viper's new engine received the same effeciency as the Z06 then it would have 505CI X 1.17 = 590HP or round it off to 600HP. Imagine a 600HP car straight from the factory for $75K.

 

[Viper Specialty]

true that... But then you dont have as much aftermarket to play with...lol! and dont forget... we have 2.3 liters on them...hehehe

 

[Paul Hawker]

DC has more to worry about than just HP figures. The have tighten noise constraints which no Gen II would pass with aftermarket headers. They must plan for increased emissions constraints. They are improving the durability, quality, smooth running issues, and the need to make the entire engine quieter running, not just the exhaust. The Feds are really hamstringing our PVO team. Not to mention the lowering of octane from 92 to 91 in California and other states.
In view of this I believe the larger engine will be world class. Providing a better torque ladened, smoother running, quieter, cleaner, engine than any other manufacturer on the planet for less than $100K.
The dual staged throttle body should provide better low speed throttle response while flowing lots of air at hi revs.
No more adjusting seperate throttle bodies to prevent jerking at low speeds.

 

[JonB]

This single Throttle body, oval tube, is gonna cut my smoothe tube sales in HALF! Not to mention Inexpensive cat backs..... YIKES!!

Weenies n beenies for me in 2003 !

 

[Marv S]

These factory filters might cit down K&N sales, too.

You must be registered for see images

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonB - PartsRack:
This single Throttle body, oval tube, is gonna cut my smoothe tube sales in HALF! Not to mention Inexpensive cat backs..... YIKES!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">More basic math:

Take the new 345HP 5.7 liter Hemi and blow it out to 8.3 liters and you have 502HP.</FONT f>

 

[MES]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>More basic math:

Take the new 345HP 5.7 liter Hemi and blow it out to 8.3 liters and you have 502HP.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So basically DC can't make more power without more CI

 

[GTS Bruce]

Lets see,small motor,2 overhead cams per bank,4-5 valves per cylinder.2 spark plugs per cylinder.Same HP.Less torque.4 times the price.Minor rebuild every 5000 miles.major at 20,000 miles.Yikes,make mine a big old stupid truck motor. Bruce

 

[Mike Brunton]

I don't think the SRT motor is just a GenII motor with an intake, headers, and exhaust upgrade.

From what I've heard, the exhaust system on the SRT *severly* restricts flow, and a free-flow exhaust will make some big HP. We'll see when they come out - do headers and cat-back on an SRT and put on an intake/K&N's and we'll see what the SRT makes compared to a similarly equipped GTS. I'd bet there would still be a 50+RWHP gap - must be a niiiiice intake design!

 

[JGK95]

Can anyone further explain in detail the differences between the Gen II and Gen III WITHOUT deviating off the subject of this post. I would really like to look at doing a hi HP NA motor without mods.

Jay K.

ps. Maybe later do a little supercharging with our friends at either Cragin, Paxton or Roe

 

[GTS Bruce]

The motor is completely different.The block is different.The crank sits 3/4" lower in the block.Shorter oil pan(but wider).Top end flows more but that's no big deal.The object was to sit the motor lower in the car to lower CG and cut down engine height to lower the hood line.Hope this helps. Bruce

 

[KepRght]

Any ETA on the GTS Version of GenIII ?

The srt10 looks like poopie

 

[SoCal Craig]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MES:
Compare (405HP/346CI=1.17 HP/CI) and (500HP/505CI=.99 HP/CI) if the Viper's new engine received the same effeciency as the Z06 then it would have 505CI X 1.17 = 590HP or round it off to 600HP. Imagine a 600HP car straight from the factory for $75K.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better yet, 8.3 liters x 120 HP/liter (stock S2000) = 996 HP!!! Dodge needs to hire some of those Honda engineers

 

[C O D Y]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoCal Craig:
Better yet, 8.3 liters x 120 HP/liter (stock S2000) = 996 HP!!! Dodge needs to hire some of those Honda engineers

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Isn't that how we ended up with the Gen 3 design?

 

[JGK95]

Bruce,

Thanks for the helpful info. Additionally, and hypothetically, would a block swap work for a Gen III motor to sit in the frame mounts where a Gen II formerly sat.

 

[Russ M]

There is a major factor everyone is over looking here when it comes to the power increase in a Gen 3, emissions. It is true that you can modify a Gen 1 or 2 engine easily to produce the same power as a Gen 3.

And it would not take much, exhaust headers, rocker arms, port work. Those mods will yield results closer to 600hp at the crank, but the car would never pass a smog test. As a matter of fact with the stock Gen 2 motor and Gen 3 changes like 1.7 ratio rocker arms and higher flowing heads/intake the power produced would easily out perform the Gen 3. But smog tests would not allow the motor to be produced.

As far as the assumption that a Gen 3 Viper comes severely detuned. I am not entirely sure that this is the case, what is the Comp coup rated power wise? 525hp right? And the comp coup comes with a free flowing exhaust and air inlet. So a 25 hp increase is far less than what is typically gained on a Gen 2 car with air intake/exhaust mods.

 

[Bugeater]

Anyone know if the Intake manifold can be retrofitted to our cars? Anyone testing this yet?