Gen 3 S/C'ed vs. Gen 4 NA

TexasSnake

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I just read the recent thread comparing the hp of Gen 3s to Gen 4s. But what is the comparison between a S/C Gen 3 vs. a Gen 4? Would my '05 dust a Gen 4 or would it be really close? Just curious if anyone has ran the two heads up.

Thanks,
Justin
 

Martin

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Either a Paxton or Autorotor Gen 3 would likely smoke a Gen 4. To be honest, though, I've done a lot of supercharged cars over the years and now I really appreciate NA engines a lot more... The minute you put a supercharger on something, simplicity is gone and stress (mostly mental) goes up - especially with today's cars. For pure fun, though, you can't beat a good supercharger! I've down and out blown the doors off of a lot of performance cars with my big, bulky, supercharged Jeep. It's also a kick in the a$$ in the mud and hill climbs - especially at high altitudes where everyone else is gasping for breath.
 

plumcrazy

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no chance an 08 is keeping up

high 700rwhp range is gonna beat a 550rwhp car everytime
 
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Twister

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I gotta disagree somewhat...

NA power is much greater than FI power..

Now at high 700's rwhp you have an above average paxton kit..

The typical bolt on paxton kit is good for around 630 rwhp..A stock 2008 Viper is 540 rwhp..

On a average night with average drivers the 640 rwhp paxtoned gen3 will trapp 130 mph in the 1/4 mile and the stock gen 4 will trapp 128 mph in the 1/4 mile..Meaning that it is a lot closer than people think..

Again at 700 plus rwhp you have a 135-140 mph trapping vehicle and have little to fear from a stock anything...But those basic paxton bolt on guys should worry a lil about the gen4's
 

Martin

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Nobody's going to like to hear this, but to do a real comparison, you should do ten runs one after another and make them all count. The NA car will run those without a sweat - the supercharged car might have some problems...
 

Malu59RT

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Centrifugal supercharger would make the 630rwhp real close to redline, correct? How much power is it making from 3k to 6k? I would love to see a dyno overlay of a paxton car vs. a 08 Viper.

I've run a 800rwhp and 960whp supercharged car (whether they were making that much at the time is questionable) but I would say I was surprised at how fast they were (weren't) pulling away.
 

Newport Viper

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I don't know where you giuys are getting stock 540- 550 rwhp numbers from... reality is

same day perfect conditions dyno jet

1. Dave Cawthorne Gen 2 422.30/461.87 Modified
2 .Lance Kouchi Gen 2 397.43/440.11 Stock
3. Dave Kuzmiak Gen 3 444.28/472.65 Stock
4. Eddie Arguelles Gen 3 452.10/475.38 DC Tune
5. Steve Shaw Gen 4* 521.42/494.45 Stock
6. Norman Greitzer Gen 4 * 507.05/481.33 Stock
7. Angel Calderon Gen 3 424.34/443.57 Stock
8. Eddie Reinsma Gen 3 436.30/464.02 Stock
9. Steve Smoot Gen 3 658.65/580.85 Paxton
10. Kobi Sial Gen 4* 558.11/528.45 Headers
11.Chris Sienecki Gen 3 484.31/473.68 Headers
12. George Balejian Gen 3 405..95/449.72 Stock
13. Peter Hausherr Gen 2 426.09/466.80 Headers
14. Kaia Rexroad Gen 3 444.52/470.57 Stock
15. Sean Casey Gen4* 563.44/526.85 Headers
16. Adam Melikoff Gen 4* 515.32/482.67 Stock
17. Michael Burgoyne Gen 3 477.52/502.68 DC Tune/Headers
18. Mark Kasparoff Gen4* 523.95/481.24 Stock
19. Rick Hollis Gen 2 855.82/798.75 Paxton
20. ErnieTaylor Mustang 249.28/247.93 Stock
21. M. Greenberg Gen 2 636.17/562.37 Race Car


* 2008 Viper
 

SquadX

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I think from a roll, the Gen 4 would be right there and the Supercharged Gen 3 wouldnt start to pull until, say 3k range and then not really put much distance on the Gen 4 until 45k range because of the Gen 4 cam (which is suited for higher rpms). This is my assumption with a basic paxton kit gen 3. a Gen 3 with 700 rwhp is another story and if tuned right, will most likely pull th Gen 4 from low in the rpm range.
 

CarDude

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Heat soak and reliability are definitely factors in FI cars when the car was not designed to displace the extra heat. I know my Gen 3 with the current hood sure puts out the heat. If slapping a supercharger was the answer, SRT (like GM…see ZR1) would have added that to increase horsepower. But reliability and emissions (+ fuel mileage) were factors. I have personally changed too many cars from stock to modified with the same results; poor reliability…and man does that ****. If you just want to drive a car and not worry about fuel pressure, oil pressure, AF mixture, etc…leave it stock (headers, reliable ECU tuning, and gear changes are certainly not going to cause you near the problems).
 

ShadowLight

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From a roll the supercharger is going to really be tearing up the Gen 4...blowers are known for making more power the faster the engine is spinning. I haven't seen an overlay of dyno curves, but I'd bet the Gen 4 has more power down low.

Edit: Cardude has really nailed it. Modified cars are fun...but if reliability is even a tiny concern for you, forget a supercharged car. Even if it is faster.
 

ViperTony

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Edit: Cardude has really nailed it. Modified cars are fun...but if reliability is even a tiny concern for you, forget a supercharged car. Even if it is faster.

Hmm...how true is that statement for Vipers? If anything, supercharged Vipers have been very reliable. The impression I have is that the Roe and Paxton's have been very reliable for Vipers. Doesn't Paxton come with/offer a warranty? As with any modification...its all in the tune.
 
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Paul Hawker

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I had a 03' with Paxton and have driven several 08's and the difference in pulling power favors the Paxton. The difference is how they put down the power with the different rear ends.

Both pull much harder up in the revs than down low.

The Paxton is much more exciting to drive, but the new engines are easier to handle.

In a highway pull the Paxton will pull away easily.
 

VENOMNS

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What you guys are not considering also is the the Gen 3 has a ton of torque also.... Look at the list and compare the gen 3 and the gen 4 torque. You can see that the Gen 3 has more torque almost everytime due to the Gen 4's cam and compression that gives it the higher hp but lower torque. The Gen 3 doesn't need the torque... it needs the upper hp and that is where the Paxton comes in!!
 

plumcrazy

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BS on paxton cars not being reliable. Roes as well. Properly installed and tuned it is just as reliable. Not to mention, half of ya'll don't drive many miles anyways.....you would never drive it enogh to see a shorter life span
 

Steve 00RT/10

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BS on paxton cars not being reliable. Roes as well. Properly installed and tuned it is just as reliable. Not to mention, half of ya'll don't drive many miles anyways.....you would never drive it enogh to see a shorter life span

True enough. I'm thinkin' my Gen II, 5 pound, trouble free Roes (40K miles between two of them) will keep up with a GEN IV. In fact, I'm guessing I'm a tad bit stronger....maybe more than a tad :) A Gen III adds 55 more HP to the base package before the blower. I would be really surprised if a standard GEN III Paxton kit wouldn't walk a GEN IV.

Steve
 

black mamba1

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This is easily solved. There are several s/c Gen 3's. And several Gen 4's. Line em up and race em, from the dig and w/ roll ons. One guy states he was shocked that the s/c Gen 3 didnt walk his Gen 4 more. Ok, more than what exactly? I have a friend w/ a modified Nissan Twin Turbo. He was happy I didnt walk him "like he thought I would". I dont know what that means. He got his ass kicked and thats all that matters.

If a s/c Gen 3 goes 0-150 mph in 16.2 seconds, and a Gen 4 gets there in say 16.7 seconds, well, thats less than half a second. But it is also about 15 car lengths.

Gen 3's have traction problems from the dig, if that is solved a s/c Gen 3 pushing 700 rwhp should run high 10's or low 11's.
 

ShadowLight

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Hmm...how true is that statement for Vipers? If anything, supercharged Vipers have been very reliable. The impression I have is that the Roe and Paxton's have been very reliable for Vipers. Doesn't Paxton come with/offer a warranty? As with any modification...its all in the tune.

I think some vehicles are more prone to problems than others, but it's a generally true statement.

If you spend the money and do things right, your chances are quite good. But whenever you increase power significantly over stock, you are running the risk of new things breaking.

I saw a guy with a turbo diesel programmer shirt that said: "Free horsepower." I had to laugh, that's like saying "free *******." No such thing :) One way or another you PAY.
 

CarDude

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Hmm...how true is that statement for Vipers? If anything, supercharged Vipers have been very reliable. The impression I have is that the Roe and Paxton's have been very reliable for Vipers. Doesn't Paxton come with/offer a warranty? As with any modification...its all in the tune.

Yes there is an available warranty, one for Paxton parts, and another one for engine I think. The kicker here is, if a NA stock engine fails, then the same engine with FI is going to fail much sooner. Any weak link will surface much sooner. I am sure there are tons of people on this forum with experience in engine failure after these changes. Maybe they just don't want to discuss it (painful memories) or they are currently in therapy and the doctors have told them to not discuss the matter.

I have driven aftermarket FI cars, and even though they were faster, they always required more attention to the real killer...heat.:firedev:
Run lean, make more HP and then KABOOM. Its a tricky game to tune for altitude, fuel (pressure, octane, ethanol), temperature, partial/full throttle, over rev, etc...
 

1BADGTS

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Bone stock with FULL WARRANTYS A Gen 4 will run low 11s at 130.You can take that Gen 4 out on a 100 degree day beat the holly Hell out of it and it is covered.A STOCK PAXTON KIT (without the upgraded intercoolers which costs thousands of dollars )will heat soak BIG TIME.Also if ANTHING HAPPENS your on you own .(Lean out just slightly under boost on a hot day and you will be left looking for a motor -thousands in damage )
 

1BADGTS

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PS it ALL COMES DOWN TO YOUR INTENDED USAGE if your going to roadrace or dragrace (hotlapping one run after another in hot weather )you better off giving up some power to stay NA.Remember SRT could have easily added a blower to the GEN 3 to make the power instead of going cam in cam.They stayed NA for a reason =RELIABILITY.aA gen 4 can run for DAY on a dyno at near redline.
 

Coloviper

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Generally a standard Paxton/Roe/Vortech/Powerdyne/Whipple, etc. kit on an engine pushing 5-8 psi boost is not going to give you any serious trouble. Yes, you must change out the complete exhaust system to really see the benefits. More air in, means more air out. More air out, means less heat. The Supercharger kits usually have the required mods for fuel system, air intake and programming to handle that 5-8 psi. Beyond that and you are grenading your stock engine. Go beyond and you better have forged internals.

It is when people want to start changing pulleys and making all the other HI-PO mods to be dyno sheet warriors that problems really arise. A nice conservative tune on a car with an 5-8 psi pulley (and a decent sized supercharger unit) as opposed to an aggressive tune on a car with a huge blower and 10+ psi is better every time. I had the larger 3.1L Whipple Blower on a GMC truck I had back in the 90s. It was the larger 454 Blower as opposed to the 350 sized blower. Yes I had other mods to my truck. But we went with a very conservative tune and a 5 psi pulley. Maybe I never got every last HP possible out of it with the mods, but I put on over 60K absolutely trouble free miles on it with that set up before I sold it. It can be easily done.

Now my 95 S351R went KABLEWY after a mere 1,200 miles. Piston failure due to non-forged pistons, heat and detonation. $20K into the motor for forged internals, 408 Stroker kit, etc. and some mods to the fuel/ignition system. 8K miles absolutely trouble free since. Sure with the mods to the motor, I could really crank up the psi now, but I am just running the 8 psi pulley. Hey I am putting down 576 rwhp. Good enough for me. Can't use it all anyway.

My point is a Paxton/Roe Kit, as is with just a complete exhaust change will put down 575-625 RWHP. That should be very reliable system and more than enough power to keep a smile on the face.

An NA car will always be the preference over FI, but a conservative FI car can produce a lot of power on the same motor and it can be absolutley troubel free if you don't go overboard.

I see absolutely no issue with the current 5-6 psi Paxton set-up on the 03-06 Vipers. It is a very simple kit. I am waiting on Roe because it should have the torque curve that more suits my style of driving.

BTW Turbo Diesel HP trucks do have a ton of near free HP with just a tune and minor mods. My Dad puts on over 75K miles per year on new work trucks for years and they all have exhaust/wastegate change out and a simple KN filter and are chipped. The are very reliable. Only thing he has learned is to upgrade the torque converter right away as well as those WILL blow apart from the increase torque. Beyond that, everything else has held up pretty good.
 

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