MuscleJunkie
Enthusiast
Has anyone done a Gen IV engine swap into a Gen III? Could this be done (Engine, PCM and ??) Is it worth it? Topic came up in a conversation and it raised my curiosity.
Gen IV Engine swap into a Gen III?
- Thread starter MuscleJunkie
- Start date
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
Paxton for under $10,000. = leave Gen 4 and just about everything else far behind you.....
.. Voting for not worth it.... however, the hood is cooler!
.. Voting for not worth it.... however, the hood is cooler!Ricketts
Enthusiast
Oh yeah, it's do-able all about how much money you got. It surely won't be a cost effective mod though. For the money spend one could mod their GEN III motor into quite a moving machine.
Already working on it, though mine isn't a simple swap, that would be a LOT easier... 
OP
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MuscleJunkie
Enthusiast
Dan, what sort of thing are you doing that doesn't make it a simple swap??
I remember reading that supposedly the GEN III Motor is better for mods than the GEN IV. Is this true and why?
I remember reading that supposedly the GEN III Motor is better for mods than the GEN IV. Is this true and why?
Dan what are you doing? My guess is putting it in a Challenger.
Arrow Racing is supposed to come out with a head package for the gen III using the gen IV heads and should put down 580 to the wheels. The package should have been out by now.
Quote from Todd at Arrow Racing:
"The Gen 3 to Gen 4 conversion makes 650 flywheel horsepower. We are just to the point of pricing this kit so it should be available very soon. I think this set up with the 708 camshaft will make a very streetable package with Great reliability and performance."
Arrow Racing is supposed to come out with a head package for the gen III using the gen IV heads and should put down 580 to the wheels. The package should have been out by now.
Quote from Todd at Arrow Racing:
"The Gen 3 to Gen 4 conversion makes 650 flywheel horsepower. We are just to the point of pricing this kit so it should be available very soon. I think this set up with the 708 camshaft will make a very streetable package with Great reliability and performance."
Already working on it, though mine isn't a simple swap, that would be a LOT easier...
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MuscleJunkie
Enthusiast
Interesting, so just a head and cam swap results in that much of a jump? Or is there more to it?
I am putting together a fully built Gen-4 engine for TT's with some new toys inside that [to date] may not be in any Viper engine build. I am then mating it with the new TR-6060 and dropping it into a Gen-3, and putting together a MoTeC/JTEC combination controller that will allow passing of emissions in states like NY.
All things being equal, the car will be a GEN-4 when completed, with the exception of a Quaife in the back instead of a GKN, a Tilton instead of the twin disc OEM, and a MoTeC instead of the VENOM controller. The JTEC is primarily just for gauge control, emissions monitors, etc.
In the end, there will be some new toys for both the Gen-3 and Gen-4 markets when all is said and done, and some new options and directions for upgrading.
Primarily, that is the change, yes. Of course tuning comes into play, and they didnt state whether that was with an OEM exhaust or not. The heads and intake system on the Gen-4 are the primary cause of the power gains, though its fairly obvious the VVT system leaves a lot on the table... too bad its sooo expensive to deal with!
With its current stock configuration, that very well may be......
But I am not planning on controlling it with a VENOM controller, as stated above.
They probably should have revised that statement as saying "we dont NEED it to make that much power", not that it cant help make more. Being able to adjust the valve overlap will CERTAINLY have power increasing implications in almost any setup, whether it be increasing overlap to better suit a particular exhaust, or decreasing overlap to maximize chamber filling on a Forced Induction application. Sure, you can select a particular camshaft that will make the same power- but you need VVT to maximize those changes over a RANGE of engine speeds- these arent boat engines spinning at the same RPM most of the time, you can use the VVT to make a huge difference in power under the curve.
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I see the potential, but with copyright laws and such it may be cheaper to invent a new system as compared to trying to copy and recalibrate the CiC one.
Good luck to you in that pursuit however. I do love more power potential, even if it's not in my car,
Ted
Good luck to you in that pursuit however. I do love more power potential, even if it's not in my car,
Ted
ViperTuner
Enthusiast
Twin DOHC setup with variable controlled intake and exhaust cams along with a pent roof and 4 valves per cylinder, twin GT52s and 600hp per liter. That's a design... Pushrods are over a 100 years old....
Until someone comes up with the $$ to build a Dohc head for this engine it will remain inefficient.
And with a DOHC setup you will keep clear from any copyright infringments....you will be inventing the wheel not re-inventing it.(well sort of)
Direct injection and camless valvetrain for the ones who have more $$ than they know what to do with... Lol
IMO... The Autronic EMS SM4 has a much better controller for VVTi/AVCS/or whatever it's called this week than the motec units. The drawbacks are you have to use a seperate DBW system and CAN system..but it will def control the engine system better...
My .02$
Howard
Until someone comes up with the $$ to build a Dohc head for this engine it will remain inefficient.
And with a DOHC setup you will keep clear from any copyright infringments....you will be inventing the wheel not re-inventing it.(well sort of)
Direct injection and camless valvetrain for the ones who have more $$ than they know what to do with... Lol
IMO... The Autronic EMS SM4 has a much better controller for VVTi/AVCS/or whatever it's called this week than the motec units. The drawbacks are you have to use a seperate DBW system and CAN system..but it will def control the engine system better...
My .02$
Howard
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Ted,
I think you are totally off in left field as to what I am talking about. Who said anything about copying anything? Recabilbrate, sure... but where did you come up with "copying" something?
Twin DOHC setup with variable controlled intake and exhaust cams along with a pent roof and 4 valves per cylinder, twin GT52s and 600hp per liter. That's a design... Pushrods are over a 100 years old....
Until someone comes up with the $$ to build a Dohc head for this engine it will remain inefficient.
And with a DOHC setup you will keep clear from any copyright infringments....you will be inventing the wheel not re-inventing it.(well sort of)
Direct injection and camless valvetrain for the ones who have more $$ than they know what to do with... Lol
IMO... The Autronic EMS SM4 has a much better controller for VVTi/AVCS/or whatever it's called this week than the motec units. The drawbacks are you have to use a seperate DBW system and CAN system..but it will def control the engine system better...
My .02$
Howard
Turbos and superchargers are also OLD technology
When people speak to changing cams it's usually a longer duration, more lift cam. I assumed that you were going to copy the cam-in-cam designwith hpcams. sorry. With 5 copyrights and awards for the technology I would assume that Chrylser would be sensitive to alteration.
Sorry about that. I ass u me'd
Ted
When people speak to changing cams it's usually a longer duration, more lift cam. I assumed that you were going to copy the cam-in-cam designwith hpcams. sorry. With 5 copyrights and awards for the technology I would assume that Chrylser would be sensitive to alteration.
Sorry about that. I ass u me'd
Ted
Hey Ted,
Nope, I was talking about copying the lift/duration/overlap onto a STANDARD camshaft for the sake of argument, saying it would make the same peak power- but it would not be able to compare in power under the curve.
However, the Mechadyne camshaft does have multiple lobe sections, it would NOT be a patent infringement anyway to produce alternative lobe designs to be fitted to the existing camshaft & phaser design- hell, I bet Mechadyne would even make them for us if we wanted. Those lobes themselves likely fall under extremely old and expired patents since their function is no different than the lobes of a standard camshaft. Now if I sold a copy of the whole thing with different lobes- yeah, that would be an infringment!
There is a thread describing a TT Gen IV build by Underground Racing which leaves the Venom programming in place and uses a supplemental controller. The engine is of course built. The post from TT states that they believe the Venom programming was a plus to the build. So, wouldn't it be more efficient to buy a low mileage, used Gen IV and mod it in a similar fashion? Why use a Gen III and insert a Gen IV motor and also probably have to convert to a Gen IV tranny?
Hi Bob,
First, you have to keep in mind how much it costs a tuner to do something like this at wholesale Vs. retail, especially when it is my pet project, and I am absorbing 100% of the labor costs myself. If it wasn't my personal car, then yes, it would probably be about equivalent to start with a Gen-4 price wise, unless you get into oddball scenarios like finding a Gen-3 with a blown engine for 30K or something like that.
Other than that, I do not want to use the VENOM controller programming, I intend to claim full control over the variable camshaft, nor do I want the VENOM's finicky code popping nature to become a problem in states like NY, where everything is tested by plug-in. [not to mention the hassles of StarScan!] As such, there is a tad less overlapping cost, as I will be using the Gen-3's native JTEC control for everything else. We also have the ability to work with JTEC currently to tweek it if need be. I suspect the VENOM controller may be a problem down the line, especially when taking ALL of its control away, which I had intended to do from the start. Converting a Gen-4 back to JTEC would be a LOT more involved than an engine swap, and likely impossible or at least overly complicated due to the Restraint System being on the CAN bus with the VENOM controller, I am not sure how intertwined those two systems are.
Lastly, this will also serve as a test bed for future possibilities of putting Gen-4 engines into Gen-1 & 2 cars.
Hi Bob,
Just an add-on...
I just went back and re-read the exact thread you were referring to. I think you may be interpreting the thread a tad differently. When they say that they have left the VENOM programming in tact, it does not necessarily mean that they are controlling the engine with it. It would basically be the same configuration as I would be running, but with a JTEC instead of a VENOM. The Controller needs to be left for things like gauge control, OBD-2 functions, fan temp control [in some cases], Auto Shutdown and Fuel Pump Control [in some cases], etc. It depends exactly how you wire it, but for the most part I feel that is what they were referring to, however the MoTeC is what actually controls the engine & variable Camshaft.
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MuscleJunkie
Enthusiast
Seems as if this thread got a bit sidetracked. Regarding this, anyone know which motor Gen III or Gen IV is better for mods? Reasoning?
Better... and easier/cheaper are far different attributes. The Gen-4 is of course an improved design, but it costs a BUNDLE to correctly operate.
When you get down to the bare bones of it, the Gen-3's are quite similar engines, and depending what you are looking for, will be more than adequate.
I agree with Dan.
The Gen4 has SRT8 rods and pistons so it has the best parts that way and the best heads.
The Gen 3 is the cheapest and has more cubic inches than the Gen 1 & 2.
If you're going to build a highdollar TT then the rods and pistons will be changed out anyway so they wouldn't matter. If you're buying race heads then the Gen 4s aren't going to be better either.
Different strokes for different folks
Ted
The Gen4 has SRT8 rods and pistons so it has the best parts that way and the best heads.
The Gen 3 is the cheapest and has more cubic inches than the Gen 1 & 2.
If you're going to build a highdollar TT then the rods and pistons will be changed out anyway so they wouldn't matter. If you're buying race heads then the Gen 4s aren't going to be better either.
Different strokes for different folks
Ted
Ted is correct.
However, as always, the crowning achievements of the Gen-4 are the Variable Cam, the new intake manifold, and the new head design. Of course you can get a set of Strikers, but due to the Variable Cam and Manifold design [and the fact that the heads flow so well to start], a Gen-4 will almost always have a leg-up on previous engines in the same configuration, and the BIG bonus is how well you can make the engine run on extreme builds due to the variable camshaft. Again, depends what you are trying to do...
However, as always, the crowning achievements of the Gen-4 are the Variable Cam, the new intake manifold, and the new head design. Of course you can get a set of Strikers, but due to the Variable Cam and Manifold design [and the fact that the heads flow so well to start], a Gen-4 will almost always have a leg-up on previous engines in the same configuration, and the BIG bonus is how well you can make the engine run on extreme builds due to the variable camshaft. Again, depends what you are trying to do...
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MuscleJunkie
Enthusiast
I was reading through the SRT Engineer chats last night has there was a mention from them that the GEN IV engine is already a "highly" stressed engine in it's stock form. What sort of impact does this have on those choosing to mod their GEN IV stock cars versus someone choosing to mod their GEN III stock vehicle? Maybe this is why I remember some mention some mention of the possiblility of the GEN III motor being better for mods than the GEN IV?
My thoughts are that the 6.1 SRT engine makes 430hp from 8 cylinders so using the 2 extra cylinders in the V10 making 600hp is slightly more stressed than the SRT8 engine.
Each cylinder in the SRT8 engine makes 54hp so if they would have made a V10 SRT8 it would have rated 538hp. The Viper engine makes 600hp of 60hp per cylinder. Compared to the Gen3's 50hp per cylinder is what I think the SRT engineers were speaking to when they pointed out the engine is stressed.
I believe the limiting factor of our Viper engines is the pistons and then the cast Main caps. Hearing nothing about the block design or maincaps being changed I assume that is still the weak point after the pistons. My guess is that for TTs and other 800+hp builds they need to be built the same (not including the heads and intake).
Ted
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Both Dan and Underground Racing are talking about TTing a built engine. The SRT Engineers less formally stated that it is safe to put the Mopar controller and headers on the Gen IV. Of course, same would be for offroad use only.
I disagree with RTTTD a bit. I believe that the stock SRT 8 engine used in the Challenger and the Charger produces 425 max HP. As such, the max HP per cylinder in the SRT 8 engine is 53.125. The max HP per cylinder in the Gen IV Viper engine is 60. Therefore, the Viper engine is a more stressed piece.
Bob is correct. The Viper engine is more highly stressed than the SRT-8. However, as also pointed out, the weak link in Viper engines has always been Pistons & Rods- which would have to be changed out anyway for any type of serious build.
