Generational Criticism

[Black SRT]

Recent threads of the various Viper owners have been great to read. We have professionals, blue collars, entrepreneurs, small business owners, and a fair number of celebrities that are members of this community. For whatever the reasons, as car enthusiasts, we are all attracted to the different generations of Vipers. Fortunately, over the last year, the number of insults, and the amount of generational criticism on this board has been dramatically reduced. At one point, it became so bad that I spent time trying to sell my 2003. I like the car more than my previous RT/10, and the number of fans only seemed to increase, but what I didn’t like was all the degrading comments from people who should have been supporting the nameplate. I, too, was previously guilty of the same crime. When Dodge first released pictures of the SRT coupe, I was a bigger fan of the concept coupe and was very critical; however, once these cars started shipping, I ended my criticism because I felt we lost our battle with Dodge, and to criticize the car now would be to also criticize its owners.

Since we seem to have a classy group associated with this hobby, let's try and show a little more loyalty and respect for our fellow members. Criticisms do nothing more than expose our own insecurity. People need to be inspired, not disparaged, so please keep going in the right direction in 2006.

 

[red98RT10]

Well said

 

[V10SpeedLuvr]

To me, a Viper is a Viper. Whether it have 400, 415, 450 or 510 HP, its a Viper. Whether it have soft windows, roll up windows, airbags, or cup holders, its a Viper. Whether the production run be 200 or 2000 for a specific year, its a Viper. I get as excited when I see a 95' black RT/10 as I do when I see a 06' FE Coupe. We're all Viper owners. All the fighting amongst us Viper owners is pointless. We are all part of the same automotive family. All families have arguments, but we should be mature enough to ignore the name calling and taunts that others start.

 

[ViperNM]

Amen!

 

[Bobpantax]

Thank you for your post. Jimmy Stewart and Rodney King would be pleased. However, brand loyalty has its limits. It should not be taken for granted by the manufacturer and we should not be blind to what appears to be a trend toward gentrifying the Viper and changing its image. Brand loyalty, like political capital, is earned. And like political capital it can be frittered away. Part of the Viper brand is to be the unabashed,unapologetic,menacing king of the performance coupe category - not just in looks but most importantly in performance. At the moment, for whatever reason, someone was asleep at the switch and the stock Viper is now one of a few as opposed to the clear leader of the pack. This should have never occured. It was a clear screw up by someone somewhere in the Dodge management foodchain. If I were running Dodge that person would have been located and asked to quietly clean out his or her desk and leave the premises. With that said, I am confident that there is enough pride and skill present in the SRT organization to swiftly remedy the problem. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy my Gen IV Viper ( Gen II plus Roe Supercharger). Happy New Year everyone.

 

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

It was not a screwup, and no one was asleep at their desk. Try and understand how a large corporation works. No one in senior management is going to authorize multiple millions of dollars to increase horsepower on a car when it is ALREADY king of the hill. Bob Lutz rammed through the Z06 program with unprecedented speed. It went from rumor to the Detroit Auto show introduction in under 6 months. Now that it is here the speed nuts we like to call SRT have ammunition with the powers that be to produce a BIGGER Snake. It's just that simple.

 

[Bobpantax]

Your post is internally inconsistent. If Lutz can do it, any competent manager should have noticed and beat him to the punch. With bolt-ons and a more agressive PCM, Dodge could have easily been there first. The automotive industry is hypercompetitive. Any manager that does not understand this basic fact should be relieved of his or her responsibilities. The corporate intelligence resources of a giant corporation are substantial and thorough. Dodge probably new about the new Z vette the moment Lutz first thought about it. Engineering, emissions testing for the new engine,parts supply and logistics, assembly line retooling,etc. took more than six months. You are being naive. Someone was asleep at the wheel at Dodge. Whoever that person is knows this and is probably waiting for the ax to fall.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

Generally speaking, I think the GEN I & II battle against the Gen III is also a little based on “dare I say” class envy. I love the look of the GTS which was lucky for me because if I wanted to buy an SRT/10 back then I would have had to sit on the sidelines and wait for them to depreciate, like I did with the GTS. Lots of Gen I and Gen II cars were bought for under $50,000. Gen III Viper owners had to pay, say $65,00 and up. I have a problem with the third owner of a Gen I Viper he paid $30,OOO for telling an SRT/10 owner who just paid $80,000 or more for a brand new Viper, he’s not driving a true Viper. The SRT/10, Coupe & Comp Coupe buyers are the one’s keeping the Viper plant alive. I think Dodge is going in the wrong direction listening to much to this forum. I don’t think the roofline and backend of the 06 Coupe should not pay any tribute at all, to the GTS. Their Concept SRT Viper is the directions they should go in. I think there are a lot of “arm chair auto designer” trying to tell Dodge how the new Vipers should look, even though they have no intention or maybe even the mean, to buy the car. I wonder what percentage of current Viper owners could afford a 2007 620hp Viper for say$100,000+ MSRP? I know I’m not. But I’ll admire the guys “and girls” that will be the next generation and drop that kind of coin on a new Dodge Viper.
Good Night and God Bless

 

[99 R/T 10]

I agree with Bob that the people that took over after Lutz left didn't have the same drive/desires that Lutz did. It is well documented that he was the one behind the Viper coming to production. The people that came after Mr. Lutz obviously didn't have the same "drive", otherwise the Viper would never have fallen off the top of the list. I doubt anyone will get fired for it though.

 

[Russ M]

Generally speaking, I think the GEN I & II battle against the Gen III is also a little based on “dare I say” class envy. I love the look of the GTS which was lucky for me because if I wanted to buy an SRT/10 back then I would have had to sit on the sidelines and wait for them to depreciate, like I did with the GTS. Lots of Gen I and Gen II cars were bought for under $50,000. Gen III Viper owners had to pay, say $65,00 and up. I have a problem with the third owner of a Gen I Viper he paid $30,OOO for telling an SRT/10 owner who just paid $80,000 or more for a brand new Viper, he’s not driving a true Viper. The SRT/10, Coupe & Comp Coupe buyers are the one’s keeping the Viper plant alive. I think Dodge is going in the wrong direction listening to much to this forum. I don’t think the roofline and backend of the 06 Coupe should not pay any tribute at all, to the GTS. Their Concept SRT Viper is the directions they should go in. I think there are a lot of “arm chair auto designer” trying to tell Dodge how the new Vipers should look, even though they have no intention or maybe even the mean, to buy the car. I wonder what percentage of current Viper owners could afford a 2007 620hp Viper for say$100,000+ MSRP? I know I’m not. But I’ll admire the guys “and girls” that will be the next generation and drop that kind of coin on a new Dodge Viper.
Good Night and God Bless

Dont know about you but my gen 2 was about 80k, which is more than what you could buy a gen 3 for right now.

To the original poster,

You came on the gen 2 forum and say you like your gen 3 better than my gen 2, great for you. But at the same time me and a good portion of the world population feel that the gen 2 is a better looking car by far and the slight improvement in performance is not worth the sacrifice. Now we are all one happy family right?

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Although I am a true Gen II enthusist, I would have to say that JH has made a awesome appearance of the Gen III. I would buy this one just for the way it looks.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Russ M]

Ab,

YOU would....

 

[Warfang]

Recent threads of the various Viper owners have been great to read. We have professionals, blue collars, entrepreneurs, small business owners, and a fair number of celebrities that are members of this community. For whatever the reasons, as car enthusiasts, we are all attracted to the different generations of Vipers. Fortunately, over the last year, the number of insults, and the amount of generational criticism on this board has been dramatically reduced. At one point, it became so bad that I spent time trying to sell my 2003. I like the car more than my previous RT/10, and the number of fans only seemed to increase, but what I didn’t like was all the degrading comments from people who should have been supporting the nameplate. I, too, was previously guilty of the same crime. When Dodge first released pictures of the SRT coupe, I was a bigger fan of the concept coupe and was very critical; however, once these cars started shipping, I ended my criticism because I felt we lost our battle with Dodge, and to criticize the car now would be to also criticize its owners.

Since we seem to have a classy group associated with this hobby, let's try and show a little more loyalty and respect for our fellow members. Criticisms do nothing more than expose our own insecurity. People need to be inspired, not disparaged, so please keep going in the right direction in 2006.

I don't know if you were really paying attention, but the real nastiness didn't really settle down a bit until maybe a month ago. The launch of the Z06 had every idiot coming out to pick fights. Maybe it's just the time of the year, but I'm glad we're once again talking more about the positive and fun aspects of owning a Viper. All Gens are great. Some like one Gen over another. That's OK so long as you respect what the other guy likes.

One thing I have to give the Vette boys credit for... even after getting their @$$ handed to them for some 13 years, they stayed loyal enough to wait for Lutz to come in and level the playing field. For a while there, it looked like we were just about to tear each other apart in a few months over some published numbers.

Yes, DC screwed up, and I still don't like the German angle in all this, but in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't a huge screwup... I'm willing to wait until VOI before I really pass judgement. For the sake of all of our sanity, I'd advise all the naysayers here to do the same. Here's a suggestion... to go to VOI with a rose in one hand, and a rotten tomato in the other. I'd marinara the first DC exec that tells me about new "Garter Snake Limited Edition" colors, stitchings, and the HP improving plaque on the center consol for year 2007-8.

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Ab,

YOU would....

Hey Russ, after you take my left nut out of you mouth...say something intelligent.

 

[One Day I'll Have One]

Ab,

Back on topic, I too am a serious Gen II guy, but I have warmed up to the SRT-10 roadster. Mainly because I saw one at a local dodge dealer and had to check it out. Beautiful Black with gray or black, forgot , interior. Very nice. I'm starting to like the coupe too. Whatever you got, gen I/II or Gen III, you guys are lucky because some guys like me can't afford any. Be happy with your good fortune you lucky devils.

Black SRT,
You really wanted to sell it?

And most importantly. They are all !!!!!

 

[Inferno]

Generally speaking, I think the GEN I & II battle against the Gen III is also a little based on “dare I say” class envy. I love the look of the GTS which was lucky for me because if I wanted to buy an SRT/10 back then I would have had to sit on the sidelines and wait for them to depreciate, like I did with the GTS. Lots of Gen I and Gen II cars were bought for under $50,000. Gen III Viper owners had to pay, say $65,00 and up. I have a problem with the third owner of a Gen I Viper he paid $30,OOO for telling an SRT/10 owner who just paid $80,000 or more for a brand new Viper, he’s not driving a true Viper. The SRT/10, Coupe & Comp Coupe buyers are the one’s keeping the Viper plant alive. I think Dodge is going in the wrong direction listening to much to this forum. I don’t think the roofline and backend of the 06 Coupe should not pay any tribute at all, to the GTS. Their Concept SRT Viper is the directions they should go in. I think there are a lot of “arm chair auto designer” trying to tell Dodge how the new Vipers should look, even though they have no intention or maybe even the mean, to buy the car. I wonder what percentage of current Viper owners could afford a 2007 620hp Viper for say$100,000+ MSRP? I know I’m not. But I’ll admire the guys “and girls” that will be the next generation and drop that kind of coin on a new Dodge Viper.
Good Night and God Bless

I paid $65000 for my genII last year, to sit there and imply genI and genII owners cannot afford a genIII is wrong.

 

[Toby]

A few thoughts...

When was being critical a bad thing when it comes to wanting the very best with our hard earned money?

Don't blame the people for reacting, blame the creators who built the cars.

I do think the bashing as played itself out and it's time to move on.

signed,

Owner of Gen 2 GTS's and future owner of a gen 3 coupe (when used examples are under 60K)

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

I paid $65000 for my genII last year, to sit there and imply genI and genII owners cannot afford a genIII is wrong.
_________________________________________________
!000’s of people paid full price for Gen 1/II but not the majority. Myself included, I paid $45,000. But the Majority of people driving a 3003-2006 Viper paid far more $ to join the Viper community.
That’s what I’m talking bout.
Gen III are the badest looking new muscle cars on the road. A hand made, limited production example of USPWR. They disserve respect. Espeacialy from the old Viper owners. Were a small community : Can’t we all just get Along”
Peace

 

[Bobpantax]

Re: Inflation Adjustment

The recent discusion about comparative pricing did not consider adjustments for inflation. Please note the following table.

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Ave
2005 2.97% 3.01% 3.15% 3.51% 2.80% 2.53% 3.17% 3.64% 4.69% 4.35% 3.46%;
2004 1.93% 1.69% 1.74% 2.29% 3.05% 3.27% 2.99% 2.65% 2.54% 3.19% 3.52% 3.26% 2.68%
2003 2.60% 2.98% 3.02% 2.22% 2.06% 2.11% 2.11% 2.16% 2.32% 2.04% 1.77% 1.88% 2.27%
2002 1.14% 1.14% 1.48% 1.64% 1.18% 1.07% 1.46% 1.80% 1.51% 2.03% 2.20% 2.38% 1.59%
2001 3.73% 3.53% 2.92% 3.27% 3.62% 3.25% 2.72% 2.72% 2.65% 2.13% 1.90% 1.55% 2.83%
2000 2.74% 3.22% 3.76% 3.07% 3.19% 3.73% 3.66% 3.41% 3.45% 3.45% 3.45% 3.39% 3.38%
Get more Historical Data from InflationData.com

As you can see, the total cumulative inflation just for the years 2000 through 2004 is 12.75 percent and it looks like average inflation for 2005 will come in at over three percent giving a total through 2005 of approximately 15.75 percent. The retail price of the 2000 RT 10 was roughly $72,000.00. Adjusted for inflation, in today's dollars this would be approximately $83,340.00 or roughly the same price as the current SRT 10.

 

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

Your post is internally inconsistent. If Lutz can do it, any competent manager should have noticed and beat him to the punch. With bolt-ons and a more agressive PCM, Dodge could have easily been there first. The automotive industry is hypercompetitive. Any manager that does not understand this basic fact should be relieved of his or her responsibilities. The corporate intelligence resources of a giant corporation are substantial and thorough. Dodge probably new about the new Z vette the moment Lutz first thought about it. Engineering, emissions testing for the new engine,parts supply and logistics, assembly line retooling,etc. took more than six months. You are being naive. Someone was asleep at the wheel at Dodge. Whoever that person is knows this and is probably waiting for the ax to fall.

Nope, YOU are being naive. Read my post again. What I am saying is the situation is about corporate politics in the hypercompetitive environment you reference. No one was going to authorize millions of dollars to improve something that does not need improving because it is already king of the hill in it's segment. Other car lines with far greater volume and profit capacity needed those investment dollars much more. And with respect to Mr Lutz, his title is Vice Chairman and he has had UNPRECEDENTED and ultimate authority to move things with lightning speed at GM. So if you want to compare Lutz to someone at DC who "fell asleep, and is waiting for the ax to fall" you would have to look pretty far up, like CEO/COO perhaps to get to the same level of power Lutz has. And those guys both just got huge promotions. The sad fact is that nobody was asleep, the people who had the power to say yes to more power for the Viper were not interested. And probably for all the right business bean counting reasons at the time. If your "Halo" car is faster than anything in the under $150,000 bracket, why improve it? Because there's a rumor or even facts regarding Corvette coming with big power? Nope, you hold 'em until you see what they bring to the table, THEN you go all in. Simple business logic for a big corporation.

 

[CitySnake]

Recent threads of the various Viper owners have been great to read. We have professionals, blue collars, entrepreneurs, small business owners, and a fair number of celebrities that are members of this community. For whatever the reasons, as car enthusiasts, we are all attracted to the different generations of Vipers. Fortunately, over the last year, the number of insults, and the amount of generational criticism on this board has been dramatically reduced. At one point, it became so bad that I spent time trying to sell my 2003. I like the car more than my previous RT/10, and the number of fans only seemed to increase, but what I didn’t like was all the degrading comments from people who should have been supporting the nameplate. I, too, was previously guilty of the same crime. When Dodge first released pictures of the SRT coupe, I was a bigger fan of the concept coupe and was very critical; however, once these cars started shipping, I ended my criticism because I felt we lost our battle with Dodge, and to criticize the car now would be to also criticize its owners.

Since we seem to have a classy group associated with this hobby, let's try and show a little more loyalty and respect for our fellow members. Criticisms do nothing more than expose our own insecurity. People need to be inspired, not disparaged, so please keep going in the right direction in 2006.

A few thoughts...

When was being critical a bad thing when it comes to wanting the very best with our hard earned money?

Don't blame the people for reacting, blame the creators who built the cars.

I do think the bashing as played itself out and it's time to move on.

signed,

Owner of Gen 2 GTS's and future owner of a gen 3 coupe (when used examples are under 60K)

I have to agree with Toby here (2nd quotation). The fact that you suggest that you were about to sell your SRT because of negative comments on a car forum leads me to believe that you may be a bit too sensitive to what folks are posting here. Regardless, criticism is a good thing, whether you are the author or the subject. I think rather it was the "nature" of the criticism that rubbed you. Somewhere along the line it crossed from "constructive" to "vindictive", which for some (like yourself) was upsetting. I can see and respect that. However, to suggest that everyone express only their positive opinions on an internet forum is simply absurd...not to mention that fact that it is exactly the different opinions and how they are expressed that generates the most interest and "fun" here on this forum. Would you really prefer a forum filled with only circle j--k threads of "isn't our car just the best" posts? Rebelious behavior is, IMO, a major part of being a Viper owner.

Those on both extreme sides of this issue need to loosen up just a bit and get a grip on "internet life".

 

[santo]

I have to agree with Toby here (2nd quotation). The fact that you suggest that you were about to sell your SRT because of negative comments on a car forum leads me to believe that you may be a bit too sensitive to what folks are posting here.

If I based my car purchase on mainsteram comments, I would have bought a Honda Civic. This car stands out no matter what generation it is and it's the rarity and beauty that makes it the right purchase. Do you like the way the Gen III looks? If so, who cares what anyone else thinks? It's your car, not theirs.

Santo

 

[Camfab]

Thank you for your post. Jimmy Stewart and Rodney King would be pleased. However, brand loyalty has its limits. It should not be taken for granted by the manufacturer and we should not be blind to what appears to be a trend toward gentrifying the Viper and changing its image. Brand loyalty, like political capital, is earned. And like political capital it can be frittered away. Part of the Viper brand is to be the unabashed,unapologetic,menacing king of the performance coupe category - not just in looks but most importantly in performance. At the moment, for whatever reason, someone was asleep at the switch and the stock Viper is now one of a few as opposed to the clear leader of the pack. This should have never occured. It was a clear screw up by someone somewhere in the Dodge management foodchain. If I were running Dodge that person would have been located and asked to quietly clean out his or her desk and leave the premises. With that said, I am confident that there is enough pride and skill present in the SRT organization to swiftly remedy the problem. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy my Gen IV Viper ( Gen II plus Roe Supercharger). Happy New Year everyone.

Maybe they are listening? I honestly don't know, what I do know is that the current issue of the Viper Qtrly. indicates changes in leadership- New V.P. Dodge Division as well as new Director at SRT. Don't really know if this means anything but it seems coincidental. I feel SRT has done a great job with their cars as a whole, but maybe too much attention($$$) was taken away from the Viper. I don't know if many of you noticed in the past years that most of the sports car magazine comparisons didn't include the Viper. It was always like well, that car(Viper) is too expensive or doesn't fit our testing scope. Even when I owned Vettes, I always thought it was pretty weak how the magazines bypassed the Viper, I figured GM was greasing the magazines.