1TONY1
Enthusiast
I know most if not all are piggyback. Post or send links if you have them. Here is one: http://www.perfectpower.com/default.asp
Guys, what fuel/spark controllers are the tuners using ?
- Thread starter 1TONY1
- Start date
1TONY1
Enthusiast
It must be a secret !! Another one is called Dastek unichip. Come on guys whats the deal....spill the beans.
WESTCOAST JASON
Enthusiast
I too have heard of the Roe computer solution. Very excited to have it make the market!!
WESTCOAST JASON
Enthusiast
My last request for info about that showed that at the time they could not handle a 'odd-fire' V10 - has this changed? That would be great....
1TONY1
Enthusiast
What model ecu are you using? Have you seen the E11 series on Haltechs site, looks like it is new. It says it will support a 10 cyl. tnx
WESTCOAST JASON
Enthusiast
Very interesting! What is the model # that you are using? Thanks
1TONY1
Enthusiast
And I guess you have upgraded fuel pump/lines for that amount of boost ? What kind of blower? I did send them an e-mail to see what they recommended for the Viper. That new one is pricey.
Vipermed 97.01
Enthusiast
the Haltech T-11 will support 10 cyl. but you would still have to fabricate a trigger wheel for the crank
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but you would still have to fabricate a trigger wheel for the crank<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Scott, is that the same issue BillyBob was talking about here:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only thing that was lacking was a way to sense engine rotation which was cured by adding a hall effect sensor on the damper. Since the V10 uses a square wave at approx.~ 5v this had to be circumvented to make it work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
or are these two different issues? It would be awesome if we could come up with a complete solution to the tuning issue for $2k or less--especially for us cast piston guys. I'm hoping Sean is getting some good results across the pond right now as well.
Scott, is that the same issue BillyBob was talking about here:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only thing that was lacking was a way to sense engine rotation which was cured by adding a hall effect sensor on the damper. Since the V10 uses a square wave at approx.~ 5v this had to be circumvented to make it work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
or are these two different issues? It would be awesome if we could come up with a complete solution to the tuning issue for $2k or less--especially for us cast piston guys. I'm hoping Sean is getting some good results across the pond right now as well.
WESTCOAST JASON
Enthusiast
Tony - please share when you get a response from Haltech. thanks
Vipermed 97.01
Enthusiast
i have talked to them personally and there reply was as i said a t-11 with trigger wheel, have heard good things of there products,and actually they said one is in the works through Haltech just not complete yet,no projected time forcast
1TONY1
Enthusiast
I will report somthing when I get a response. The problem is that the price is getting close to a f.a.s.t. (speed pro) system like I have on my f-body. It uses a w/b 02 and tunes to a target a/f I input via the 02. It is the same one that the nationally known efi dragracers use. Haltech my be able to do the same but on this car I think 2grand or more is high. I will not purchase anything until I see what Sean comes up with. Sean did say that it will not work off of the w/b 02. Why does that matter ? As we all know the air/ air/temp density altitude changes and if it is doing a/f as we tell it without adjusting for different conditions then it is not optimizing (is that a word) Example: On the tune I have in my Formula I can spray a 75 shot of n02 on top of the Procharger and it has enough capability (called error correction) to adjust the mixture to still hit the target a/f. We can dial the boost from 13 psi to 7 psi to slow the car for an index class and it corrects the a/f without tuning. Now I have not contacted f.a.s.t. but it could probably be worked out just like the haltech. All that said, as pitiful as our stock ecu is we can probably get a tune up out of a piggyback system that will cover almost all atmospheric conditions Haltech does say with the e11 it can do do 02 sensor closed loop mixture control...it doesn't say w/b or not.
Russ M
Enthusiast
Soon guys VERY soon....
I am not at liberty to say who is making it or the exact release date but in 2-3 weeks my viper is going in for test fit of a totally programmable ECU which completely replaces the stock unit. It is a plug and play, no wiring at all and is way under 2k in price.
Please do not ask who is making it they specifically told me not to even say anything until the product came out, but when I saw this thread well you know.
Just hold out a bit longer, and soon all vipers will be perfectly tuned.
I am not at liberty to say who is making it or the exact release date but in 2-3 weeks my viper is going in for test fit of a totally programmable ECU which completely replaces the stock unit. It is a plug and play, no wiring at all and is way under 2k in price.
Please do not ask who is making it they specifically told me not to even say anything until the product came out, but when I saw this thread well you know.
Just hold out a bit longer, and soon all vipers will be perfectly tuned.
1TONY1
Enthusiast
OK, how about an inexact release date? Atleast give us some tidbits of info on how it works. alpha N mode ? use w/b 02 ? Don't tease us.
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Large reply fro Haltech but it gets the point across:
Our new E11 can run the engine.
Haltech USA
PH 972-831-9800
Fax 972-831-9802 www.haltech.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Armour
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: ecu
What do you have that has been proven on a Dodge Viper V10 application ? Thanks, Tony Armour
Our new E11 can run the engine.
Haltech USA
PH 972-831-9800
Fax 972-831-9802 www.haltech.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Armour
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: ecu
What do you have that has been proven on a Dodge Viper V10 application ? Thanks, Tony Armour
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Ronnie, Seems like I saw on one of the dealer websites a figure of $1600. I don't know if I woud sink that much into someting that is not referencing off of a w/b 02. I have not asked them about the 02. Hopefully Sean will let us know if the stuff he was checking out is going to work. I think he was going to vacation when he arrived back in the states, maybe he will have internet access.
Russ M
Enthusiast
1TONY1,
Ok I can answer that yes of course you use a wide band o2 sensor, what kind of self respecting engine tuning device would it be without one.
Here are some of the little things this unit can do:
Datalog
Nitrous control
Traction control
boost control
Tranny(auto) or some sort of pneumatic set up control
Individual cylinder fuel/spark control
The list goes on and on-You will not be disappointed. I have been working long and hard to get this unit made for our Vipers, and it finally seems that the time is almost here.
Ok I can answer that yes of course you use a wide band o2 sensor, what kind of self respecting engine tuning device would it be without one.
Here are some of the little things this unit can do:
Datalog
Nitrous control
Traction control
boost control
Tranny(auto) or some sort of pneumatic set up control
Individual cylinder fuel/spark control
The list goes on and on-You will not be disappointed. I have been working long and hard to get this unit made for our Vipers, and it finally seems that the time is almost here.
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Thanks Russ
glad we drug it out of you. I will go out on a limb here and guess that your car is # 1 for the e11 box ? Plug and play sounds nice...w/b targeting sounds even better. Please tell us more when you can. Do we need to find a dealer to get us a good Viper price or do you have a line on that...speaking of price, what are we talking?
Billybob, A quick explanation is: regular 02 is like an on off switch...either high voltage or low. A w/b 02 is like rheostat. With a narrowband the 02 is telling the ecu to take away or add fuel up/down/up/down A w/b can tell the ecu to adjust for an exact a/f..actually the ecu is taking info then deciphering this info. That is my brief explanation, close maybe not perfect. For very detailed differences look here and the links on this page: http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wbntk.htm
Russ, TELL US MORE !!
Also, Billybob...a narrowband is better than nothing and the w/b is the next step up.
Billybob, A quick explanation is: regular 02 is like an on off switch...either high voltage or low. A w/b 02 is like rheostat. With a narrowband the 02 is telling the ecu to take away or add fuel up/down/up/down A w/b can tell the ecu to adjust for an exact a/f..actually the ecu is taking info then deciphering this info. That is my brief explanation, close maybe not perfect. For very detailed differences look here and the links on this page: http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wbntk.htm
Russ, TELL US MORE !!
Also, Billybob...a narrowband is better than nothing and the w/b is the next step up.
Russ M
Enthusiast
Here is some info directly from the advertisement the ***** are name of manufacturer
.
Dealers are easy, and no Viper owners will not be getting Hennessy'd, the price will be the same for any vehicle.
My Viper will be the first, we are going to see how much more power can be generated over the stock ECU with minor mods. And then a twin turbo setup is going on the car for more fun.
PS. This unit is going to be offered with a new twin turbo kit coming out very soon. And the best news about it is that the price of everything will be comparable to the twin turbo corvette kits out there.
***********
Plug & Play Programmable Engine Management System
******* Plug & Play Engine Management System (EMS) is the first of its kind and will forever change the way you look at fuel injection tuning! This user-programmable system plugs directly into a vehicle's factory ECU harness and requires no additional wiring. Windows™-based software (2000, NT, 98, 95, ME) makes the task of copying, viewing and manipulating data as simple as a click of the mouse. User-defined templates are easily configurable and enable tuners to establish "quick keys" to any pertinent information during the tuning process. The ****** EMS's infinitely-adjustable software allows tuners to program virtually any combination of engine control, power adders and auxiliary devices, and accurately deliver proper amounts of fuel and correct ignition timing for ANY boost level or operating condition.
*Adapting hardware required for some non-factory forced induction vehicles. Plug & Play Technology - No additional wiring necessary
Installs in minutes!
Runs on Windows™ Based Software
16/32 Hybrid High-Speed Processor
Base Maps included
Onboard datalogging
Sequential Fuel Injection
Interactive, User-friendly Manual
Nitrous, Boost and Knock control
Forced induction compatible*
Made in the USA
Dealers are easy, and no Viper owners will not be getting Hennessy'd, the price will be the same for any vehicle.
My Viper will be the first, we are going to see how much more power can be generated over the stock ECU with minor mods. And then a twin turbo setup is going on the car for more fun.
PS. This unit is going to be offered with a new twin turbo kit coming out very soon. And the best news about it is that the price of everything will be comparable to the twin turbo corvette kits out there.
***********
Plug & Play Programmable Engine Management System
******* Plug & Play Engine Management System (EMS) is the first of its kind and will forever change the way you look at fuel injection tuning! This user-programmable system plugs directly into a vehicle's factory ECU harness and requires no additional wiring. Windows™-based software (2000, NT, 98, 95, ME) makes the task of copying, viewing and manipulating data as simple as a click of the mouse. User-defined templates are easily configurable and enable tuners to establish "quick keys" to any pertinent information during the tuning process. The ****** EMS's infinitely-adjustable software allows tuners to program virtually any combination of engine control, power adders and auxiliary devices, and accurately deliver proper amounts of fuel and correct ignition timing for ANY boost level or operating condition.
*Adapting hardware required for some non-factory forced induction vehicles. Plug & Play Technology - No additional wiring necessary
Installs in minutes!
Runs on Windows™ Based Software
16/32 Hybrid High-Speed Processor
Base Maps included
Onboard datalogging
Sequential Fuel Injection
Interactive, User-friendly Manual
Nitrous, Boost and Knock control
Forced induction compatible*
Made in the USA
Paolo Castellano
Enthusiast
WOW, this sounds just like the system that AEM makes. http://www.aempower.com/ems.htm
These things make going to stand alone engine management a breeze. This will change the world of Vipers for years to come. The number one problem with making reliable forced induction power is having the ability to properly manage both fuel AND spark. Everyone has done pretty good with the fuel, but the ignition is what makes or breaks the engine. Russ M, good luck to you with your Twin Turbo Beast and we'll all be waiting to hear your results.
Paolo
Dealers are easy, and no Viper owners will not be getting Hennessy'd, the price will be the same for any vehicle.
My Viper will be the first, we are going to see how much more power can be generated over the stock ECU with minor mods. And then a twin turbo setup is going on the car for more fun.
PS. This unit is going to be offered with a new twin turbo kit coming out very soon. And the best news about it is that the price of everything will be comparable to the twin turbo corvette kits out there.
***********
Plug & Play Programmable Engine Management System
******* Plug & Play Engine Management System (EMS) is the first of its kind and will forever change the way you look at fuel injection tuning! This user-programmable system plugs directly into a vehicle's factory ECU harness and requires no additional wiring. Windows™-based software (2000, NT, 98, 95, ME) makes the task of copying, viewing and manipulating data as simple as a click of the mouse. User-defined templates are easily configurable and enable tuners to establish "quick keys" to any pertinent information during the tuning process. The ****** EMS's infinitely-adjustable software allows tuners to program virtually any combination of engine control, power adders and auxiliary devices, and accurately deliver proper amounts of fuel and correct ignition timing for ANY boost level or operating condition.
*Adapting hardware required for some non-factory forced induction vehicles. Plug & Play Technology - No additional wiring necessary
Installs in minutes!
Runs on Windows™ Based Software
16/32 Hybrid High-Speed Processor
Base Maps included
Onboard datalogging
Sequential Fuel Injection
Interactive, User-friendly Manual
Nitrous, Boost and Knock control
Forced induction compatible*
Made in the USA
[/B][/QUOTE]
These things make going to stand alone engine management a breeze. This will change the world of Vipers for years to come. The number one problem with making reliable forced induction power is having the ability to properly manage both fuel AND spark. Everyone has done pretty good with the fuel, but the ignition is what makes or breaks the engine. Russ M, good luck to you with your Twin Turbo Beast and we'll all be waiting to hear your results.
Paolo
Dealers are easy, and no Viper owners will not be getting Hennessy'd, the price will be the same for any vehicle.
My Viper will be the first, we are going to see how much more power can be generated over the stock ECU with minor mods. And then a twin turbo setup is going on the car for more fun.
PS. This unit is going to be offered with a new twin turbo kit coming out very soon. And the best news about it is that the price of everything will be comparable to the twin turbo corvette kits out there.
***********
Plug & Play Programmable Engine Management System
******* Plug & Play Engine Management System (EMS) is the first of its kind and will forever change the way you look at fuel injection tuning! This user-programmable system plugs directly into a vehicle's factory ECU harness and requires no additional wiring. Windows™-based software (2000, NT, 98, 95, ME) makes the task of copying, viewing and manipulating data as simple as a click of the mouse. User-defined templates are easily configurable and enable tuners to establish "quick keys" to any pertinent information during the tuning process. The ****** EMS's infinitely-adjustable software allows tuners to program virtually any combination of engine control, power adders and auxiliary devices, and accurately deliver proper amounts of fuel and correct ignition timing for ANY boost level or operating condition.
*Adapting hardware required for some non-factory forced induction vehicles. Plug & Play Technology - No additional wiring necessary
Installs in minutes!
Runs on Windows™ Based Software
16/32 Hybrid High-Speed Processor
Base Maps included
Onboard datalogging
Sequential Fuel Injection
Interactive, User-friendly Manual
Nitrous, Boost and Knock control
Forced induction compatible*
Made in the USA
[/B][/QUOTE]
Didn't know if you guys had seen this post from the other board. Sounds like Sean is bringing back some good news from Sweden:
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2002 5:59 pm Post subject: GOOD NEWS for those owning Roe Racing Superchargers
--------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2002 5:59 pm Post subject: GOOD NEWS for those owning Roe Racing Superchargers
--------------------------------------------------------------
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Russ, Where are you getting your info about the wide band 02 ? On Haltechs web site in the E11 page I pulled up the instructions and all it talks about is a narrow band and does not recommend it for heavy load tuning (which is correct)I have not followed this up with a phone call.....yet.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1TONY1:
Large reply fro Haltech but it gets the point across:
Our new E11 can run the engine.
Haltech USA
PH 972-831-9800
Fax 972-831-9802 www.haltech.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's the response I got frmo Haltech yesterday on this same subject:
===============================================
Hi,
At this stage we have not confirmed our system can work on the Dodge Viper engine...
we are gathering info on this engine at the moment,
please email back to us in the new year and i will be able to give you a more definite answer.
Kind regards
Adam Neish
HALTECH SALES / TECHNICIAN
===============================================
I don't like the mixed stories...gives me a bad feeling.
Large reply fro Haltech but it gets the point across:
Our new E11 can run the engine.
Haltech USA
PH 972-831-9800
Fax 972-831-9802 www.haltech.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's the response I got frmo Haltech yesterday on this same subject:
===============================================
Hi,
At this stage we have not confirmed our system can work on the Dodge Viper engine...
we are gathering info on this engine at the moment,
please email back to us in the new year and i will be able to give you a more definite answer.
Kind regards
Adam Neish
HALTECH SALES / TECHNICIAN
===============================================
I don't like the mixed stories...gives me a bad feeling.
1TONY1
Enthusiast
That *****...maybe thats why their response to me was so vague. Anyway, if it doesn't use a w/b 02 then I can't see how its $1000 better than a piggyback system.
WESTCOAST JASON
Enthusiast
IMO the biggest problem with the piggyback in general is the 'hitting a moving target problem' - whatever settings a piggyback have put into them only works if the factory ECM is on the particular set of variables (MAP) that it was tuned for. My experience has been (so far) that a good piggyback setting works great until a variable changes (such as different temp or anything that causes the factory ECM to run different levels of timing or fuel) Locking the factory ECM somehow into a solid map would make piggybacking work fine. How is the big question....
.02
.02
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Good point Jason. I didn't know they would change when the factory ecu was in a different spot. I did figure when there was a large change in the air quality changes would be needed. What are you using to manipulate a/f...timing ?
WESTCOAST JASON
Enthusiast
Currently I am using one of the piggyback boxes from splitsec and an MSD dial retard for the Viper (for minor hotter/colder weather changes). But that is just it, the 'perfect' tune is not ever going to come from a piggyback box since it only changes the signal by whatever it is programmed to do.
I.E. if I tell it to remove 8 degrees of timing at 5psi and 4000RPM it does that all the time. Which for instance when I set it was fine, but then if the factory ECM runs an extra 10 degrees for whatever reason based on its inputs, my 8 degrees does not compensate for that. Hence, 'The moving target' - This is the whole reason I have been so excited about a product from AEM or ROE that will literally replace the factory ECM so the tuner can control it all (all the time) - I know it is just around the corner..... the race is on for who comes out with one first. Then regardless of the mods each Viper owner can really get what they feel the perfect tune is. SOON!
I.E. if I tell it to remove 8 degrees of timing at 5psi and 4000RPM it does that all the time. Which for instance when I set it was fine, but then if the factory ECM runs an extra 10 degrees for whatever reason based on its inputs, my 8 degrees does not compensate for that. Hence, 'The moving target' - This is the whole reason I have been so excited about a product from AEM or ROE that will literally replace the factory ECM so the tuner can control it all (all the time) - I know it is just around the corner..... the race is on for who comes out with one first. Then regardless of the mods each Viper owner can really get what they feel the perfect tune is. SOON!
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
There are just too many adaptive blocks to constantly chase around on the SBEC and JTEC for any piggyback module to do it justice. Then there's the (not so) minor issue of handing off control from closed loop to open loop. The solution is a quality race ecu to replace the JTEC, but how many of them can control your emissions system functions?
Perhaps the controller on the Turbo PT Cruiser would provide some useful clues. Somebody has to get in touch with the elusive "Mr. MOTOrola" and get to the root of the programming and hardware issues.
(You can thank me later...
)
Perhaps the controller on the Turbo PT Cruiser would provide some useful clues. Somebody has to get in touch with the elusive "Mr. MOTOrola" and get to the root of the programming and hardware issues.
(You can thank me later...
