How much weight? How much money?

SylvanSRT

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Just wondering how much weight could Dodge(DCX) save by making our SRT frames out of Aluminum? Using conventional methods of construction, not lots of expensive aerospace/future technology. How much more could this cost, my guess is buying so many the cost could not be that much more, or negligable at best. I hav lots friends that work for OEM suppliers and know they can twist and arm quite well. Anyone have an idea of the cost increase and the weight savings?
 

Cris

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Didn't the Z06 save approximately 150 lbs through the use of an aluminum frame.
 

Cris

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I agree. And if I recall correctly they required the fixed roof to gain back enough stiffness to be "close" to the base steel framed vette. That really is where design comes into it. How to make it lighter while retaining the stiffness or torsional rigidity. From some of the magazine reviews it seems that the Z06 lost something handling wise verus the base vette with the handling suspension (I do not remember any negative comments about its handling at th elimits as we do now with the Z06).
 

Kenny

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Wait until someone bolts a 1000hp lingenfelter turbo motor into one of those aluminum frame wonders and starts launching on slicks.

I didn't know corvettes could do Yoga.
 

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The trade offs for an aluminum frame in a viper are simply not worth it in my opinion. The cost is high for small production numbers, the weight loss is not very much (100 pounds TOPS) and torsional rigidity will be less (ie a Coupe with an AL frame will match a convertible with a steel frame) Besides, the Viper frame is not all that heavy! It only weighs around 400 pounds, and considering how big and strong it is, that is not bad at all.

The biggest area that a Viper needs help is the wheel/brake rotor area. Jesus... our wheel/tire/rotor combination on a stock car weighs almost 440 pounds! Thats more than the FRAME of the car!!! dropping 100+ pounds off of those numbers will yield better results as it is UNSPRUNG, and ROTATIONAL weight...it counts virtually double over weight in the frame area.
 

Warfang

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geez... do we have a bunch of guys working in the aluminum industry here? People, aluminum is NOT the only substance on earth that would increase preformance for a car. You see the vette using it and now you want it too?

There are better ways to innovate then to compromise what you already have just to match an arbitrary number on a vette. :rolleyes:
 

Viperfreak2

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geez... do we have a bunch of guys working in the STEEL industry here? People, STEEL is NOT the only substance on earth that would increase WEIGHT for a car.

There's always LEAD....

Yes, an aluminum chassis on the COUPE with a lightweight tire wheel package. You have something against a 510hp Viper Vs. a 505 hp Vette that weigh the SAME? Now add a 'little' more horsey power and make a beast. THAT's what I'm for.
 

acrdakota

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geez... do we have a bunch of guys working in the aluminum industry here? People, aluminum is NOT the only substance on earth that would increase preformance for a car. You see the vette using it and now you want it too?

There are better ways to innovate then to compromise what you already have just to match an arbitrary number on a vette. :rolleyes:

I completely agree, and it's the same people crying for "Hemi" heads, when in reality they are just victims of a marketing ploy. The lack of common sense in a group of fairly successful adults never ceases to amaze me.
 

Warfang

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I guess there are aluminum heads here...

Aluminum is a compromise in structural integrity... notice there are no z06 verts? There are other ways to lose weight, without resorting to a "me-too" approach that would compromise current designs.

Let's just agree that the Viper can benefit from some weight reduction, but weight is not the end all to better preformance, especially if you factor in HP, price and many other variables.
 

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ViperFreak- The problem with AL chassis is that they are more prone to cracking and twisting than a steel counterpart, especially under the extreme torque that a Viper can produce. I dont know of many other fames out there on STOCK cars that can handle serious power like the Viper! Geeze, we have 1500 RWHP cars runing around with stock frames and ZERO Frame related issues.

While the weight difference of the Coupe VS ZO6 is greater, the Weight difference between the Convertible and ZO6 is not all THAT much. The Convertibles are listed at 3310-3340 depending where you look, and the ZO6 is 3150. A 160-180 pound difference can EASILY be made in the Wheel/Tire/Rotor area alone. Now the Coupe needs to shed another 80 pounds somewhere... how about a CF top instead of Fiberglass? Smaller rear window, etc...
 

Hirohawa

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Doesn't the ford GT have an Aluminum frame?

Also the crap thing is the coupes wheel and tire package is heavier than the sidewinder wheels that where supposed to come with it.
 

Viperfreak2

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Yes, the GT is aluminum. So is the Ferrari F430 Spyder. So is the new Jag vert, so was the BMW Z8....etc etc . I don't think DC should necessarily change the vert to aluminum, but an ACR coupe with a frame built by Dana (same supplier to the Z06) and an up rated engine sounds like heaven to me. A YELLOW with BLACK STRIPES 3100 POUND ACR coupe with 600 HP. Ford and Chevy would no longer be #1 and #2, and that's the truth.
Warfang said it best:
Let's just agree that the Viper can benefit from some weight reduction
 

steve911

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Aluminum in my opinion isn't necessarily the "be all to end all" solution. While it is lighter than steel, it does creat its own set of challenges to make it work. Lets think back to the Plymouth Prowler. There were cracking problems with the chassis from the start ( granted it sort of new technology at the time, there are beginning to be corrosion problems, due to unforseen parts of the chassis that have collected dirt over the years and when the collected moisture in that dirt, just sits and doesn't dry out you get the ugly "C" word.

As an aircraft structural specialist with 30+ years of experience on military aircraft, I can tell you the military aircraft designers are absolutely anal about reducing weight to increase or even maintain performance in light of the new weapons systems that are being added to the jets. The substitution of aluminum and carbon and kevlar for traditionally steel structures is a constant ongoing process. The additional reinforcing that is required to maintain original rigidity can be mind boggling. Once the rigidity/strength is achieved, an ongoing concern is service life (not having to frequently replace/repair a component.) More and more components are being replaced with carbon/kevlar. The new F-22 that is now online in the USAF at a few bases, actually contains 35% less aluminum, and 9% more steel and a heck of alot more composites.

I would hazard a guess that there probably is a design sitting in a corner of a designers desk of an aluminum chassis or a least a chassis with aluminum components. But due to the low volume nature of the viper, I believe the cost versus benefit of that structure wouldn't be worth it. I also believe that there would have to be a wholesale body redesign in order to use an alumnum chassis because the existing steel design could not be duplicated in aluminum and expected to work.

I am in total agreement with other writers to remove weight where REASONABLY possible, (i.e. exhaust, tires and wheels) AND the addition of more horses. I would not want to have to pay for more exotic materials in the price of a car just to save a few pounds (the old cost vs. benefit thing). Horsepower is much much cheaper and makes for better bragging rights too. :)
 

dirk989

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Just to add a little perspective the Z06, that several of you seem to be using as an example, went to an aluminum frame, cf fenders, hood and flooring and saved a grand total of 80 lbs.

Do I want to add $7500 to the price to save 80 lbs? No. Some of you may, but I would think DC would realize that most buyers wouldn't.

For the same $7500 you can add 150 hp.


Dirk
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Steve911, your whole post exactly what I've been assuming (I'm not an engineer). Seems like some folks think switching to aluminum is a simple matter of placing Al in the jig instead of steel.

Good post. :2tu:
 

STUGOTS

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Steve911, your whole post exactly what I've been assuming (I'm not an engineer). Seems like some folks think switching to aluminum is a simple matter of placing Al in the jig instead of steel.

Good post. :2tu:

agreed
 

Viperfreak2

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Just to add a little perspective the Z06, that several of you seem to be using as an example, went to an aluminum frame, cf fenders, hood and flooring and saved a grand total of 80 lbs.

You're just a little off with your facts.

IF you took the standard C6 and added:
Bigger Wheels
Bigger Tires
Bigger Engine
Dry sump oiling system
Bigger Brakes

The car would weigh MORE than a Viper.

By taking the time and spending the money to engineer the aluminum frame and carbon fiber parts, they were able to beat the Viper in almost all performance specs. It may be the only smart move GM makes this decade.

My issue is that DC knew what was coming years ago, and sat on its wallet.
 

Janni

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having had a Viper frame repaired on the race car - quickly, easily and back as good as new - I DO NOT WANT AN ALUMINUM FRAME.

We'll see what happens to the first Z06 that's in a fender bender (*******??) and needs a new frame because so few body shops want to deal with an aluminum frame.

Or, when the track rats start seeing any stress cracks when they bolt on the Goodyear slicks and the suspension pickup points start taking a HUGE amount of stress......

Please find other weight reducing items.
 

Lee00blacksilverGTS

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Just to add a little perspective the Z06, that several of you seem to be using as an example, went to an aluminum frame, cf fenders, hood and flooring and saved a grand total of 80 lbs.

You're just a little off with your facts.

IF you took the standard C6 and added:
Bigger Wheels
Bigger Tires
Bigger Engine
Dry sump oiling system
Bigger Brakes

The car would weigh MORE than a Viper.

By taking the time and spending the money to engineer the aluminum frame and carbon fiber parts, they were able to beat the Viper in almost all performance specs. It may be the only smart move GM makes this decade.

My issue is that DC knew what was coming years ago, and sat on its wallet.

Then you don't really have an issue because they did NOT know it was coming for years. Their marketing assumptions were that Chevy would never drop that much money on a special model. In effect Chevy is wasting a bunch of the profit from the regular C6 to support the R&D that went into the Z AND to subsidize the price point that has been set for the Z. VERY surprising they did that in their most unprofitable years. And but for Lutz they would not have. Hence the surprise. DC did not know about the Z till the rumors started halfway through 04.
Having said all that I'm kinda surprised that knowing Lutz as well as they did I wonder why DC did not surmise he would try and hit it over the fence with his first try. My guess is they really did not think he could break through the GM system to get it done that fast. But he sure did.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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My issue is that DC knew what was coming years ago, and sat on its wallet.

From GM? You gotta be kidding. I don't know how old you are but GM has failed to live up to the hype for decades.

So great, they finally delivered. I am honestly glad they did. Now we will see if DC raises the bar in 2007.
 

Warfang

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Just to add a little perspective the Z06, that several of you seem to be using as an example, went to an aluminum frame, cf fenders, hood and flooring and saved a grand total of 80 lbs.

You're just a little off with your facts.

IF you took the standard C6 and added:
Bigger Wheels
Bigger Tires
Bigger Engine
Dry sump oiling system
Bigger Brakes

The car would weigh MORE than a Viper.

By taking the time and spending the money to engineer the aluminum frame and carbon fiber parts, they were able to beat the Viper in almost all performance specs. It may be the only smart move GM makes this decade.

My issue is that DC knew what was coming years ago, and sat on its wallet.

Then you don't really have an issue because they did NOT know it was coming for years. Their marketing assumptions were that Chevy would never drop that much money on a special model. In effect Chevy is wasting a bunch of the profit from the regular C6 to support the R&D that went into the Z AND to subsidize the price point that has been set for the Z. VERY surprising they did that in their most unprofitable years. And but for Lutz they would not have. Hence the surprise. DC did not know about the Z till the rumors started halfway through 04.
Having said all that I'm kinda surprised that knowing Lutz as well as they did I wonder why DC did not surmise he would try and hit it over the fence with his first try. My guess is they really did not think he could break through the GM system to get it done that fast. But he sure did.

Lee: your similar post from another "vette is better, DC fell asleep at the switch" thread, made me see the light. So my hats off to you for that.

I'm willing to give DC a year to at least ANNOUNCE that they're working on something. Until then, any demands and postering by the "keyboard car engineers" here is no more productive to DC than it is for someone playing fantasy football to help a team win in an actual game. :rolleyes:
 

VENOMAHOLIC

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Excellent post steve911. :2tu: I also agree that an aluminum frame is not the answer. The R&D costs required would be huge to make it and we will still probably end up with a fixed roof to support 600hp. A steady trimming of weight as technology improves and costs on such go down is preferable. Bringing the price down is much more desireable than weight loss.

More hp will always be cheaper and easier to impliment with todays fuel injection. Meeting emissions is the only challenge there.
 

Viperfreak2

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My issue is that DC knew what was coming years ago, and sat on its wallet.

From GM? You gotta be kidding. I don't know how old you are but GM has failed to live up to the hype for decades.

So great, they finally delivered. I am honestly glad they did. Now we will see if DC raises the bar in 2007.

I'm 39, and work for a major auto manufacturer.

I'll use an analogy to help you understand:
Suppose you were in the real estate business. You've been in that field for 25 years. You know the area and business VERY well. Someone tells you their house is a gem, worth $100,000 more than your experience tells you. They would be wise to listen to you, right?

Most car companies know what the others are doing down to specific details. GM and DC have offices and plants in Detroit so there's a lot of cross town job changes, loose lips, and brand loyal people. This 'super secret' didn't make it past the initial discussion of 'beat Viper' before DC heard the whispers. Did DC honestly believe GM would falter again? I probably would. At the same time, ALWAYS HAVE A BACKUP PLAN IN CASE THE RUMORS ARE TRUE. 2007 isn't such a quick response time, if that rumor even comes true.

Imagine what it's like in southern Germany....BMW,Mercedes,Audi,Porsche. Do you think the senior management of those companies are clueless about what's going on at the others? Ever heard of industrial spies?

The way the global auto business works today is that a lot of the developement work on parts happens at the suppliers. I visit a supplier to look at a new part for my company. Over in the corner I see people working on an aluminum frame that has the shape of a Corvette. I'm not bound to any internal secrecy rule for the other guys product! Happens every day.

The above isn't trying to prove anything, just my experienced opinions.

Janni, I think an aluminum frame would benefit me. I don't want a fix job if I have a wreck. I want new. The last thing I need is a 'straightened out rewelded' frame. If it costs more than the car is worth to give me a new frame, total it! I guess from a track perspective it might be different. As far as strength, aluminum is 1/3 the density of steel.
 

Janni

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Just to add a little perspective the Z06, that several of you seem to be using as an example, went to an aluminum frame, cf fenders, hood and flooring and saved a grand total of 80 lbs.

You're just a little off with your facts.

IF you took the standard C6 and added:
Bigger Wheels
Bigger Tires
Bigger Engine
Dry sump oiling system
Bigger Brakes

The car would weigh MORE than a Viper.

By taking the time and spending the money to engineer the aluminum frame and carbon fiber parts, they were able to beat the Viper in almost all performance specs. It may be the only smart move GM makes this decade.

My issue is that DC knew what was coming years ago, and sat on its wallet.

Then you don't really have an issue because they did NOT know it was coming for years. Their marketing assumptions were that Chevy would never drop that much money on a special model. In effect Chevy is wasting a bunch of the profit from the regular C6 to support the R&D that went into the Z AND to subsidize the price point that has been set for the Z. VERY surprising they did that in their most unprofitable years. And but for Lutz they would not have. Hence the surprise. DC did not know about the Z till the rumors started halfway through 04.
Having said all that I'm kinda surprised that knowing Lutz as well as they did I wonder why DC did not surmise he would try and hit it over the fence with his first try. My guess is they really did not think he could break through the GM system to get it done that fast. But he sure did.

Sorry, Lee - gotta disagree with you here. With Bob Lutz at GM, DC knew that there would be a concerted effort to beat Viper - if for nothing else - as a direct "screw you" for forcing his retirement - as he obviously had a few more good years left in him. ;) I also happen to know that Mr Lutz himself was sending his own spy photos to the folks at DC and even some VCA'ers before the C6 was unveiled. He also arranged ot have a Z06 for Maurice Liang to drive at a west coast Viper Days - coincidence? I think not. The dry sump motor was a direct thumbing of the nose at Dodge for not doing anything to address the oiling problem on their "street legal race car"

These guys are a competitive bunch and they REALLY like to drop hints and play other minds games with the competition - it's guerilla marketing at it's finest - by manipulating the key players.

DC knew that it was coming.
 

dirk989

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"You're just a little off with your facts.

IF you took the standard C6 and added:
Bigger Wheels
Bigger Tires
Bigger Engine
Dry sump oiling system
Bigger Brakes

The car would weigh MORE than a Viper."


I'm not off with "my" facts. GM is the source that claims going to an aluminum frame, and cf fenders and floors only saved 80 lbs. There were a lot of other adjustments made to save weight to set off the gains from larger wheels etc.

My post was in response to the ones claiming that DC could easily and cheaply switch to an aluminum frame and sprinkle some cf bits in there for a 300lb weight saving. I believe that is wrong. When you consider that GM only saved 80lbs by switching frames and using cf in the fenders and floors (along with balsa wood) then it seems unreasonable to assume the Viper will shed 300 lbs from the same approach.

Dirk
 

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Is is just me... or do people forget VERY easily how big of a car the Viper is? or the Corvette? or any supercar for that matter? There is a REASON that superscars the same size of a Viper and weight in at less than 3000 pounds cost 300K+... EXOTIC MATERIALS ARE EXPENSIVE AND COST A LOT TO USE. And even then- Many of the supercars are HEAVIER than the Viper! Lambos? You bet. Porsche? Them too. Exotic Materials require sacrafice... weather it be Dollar Signs for CF, or Strength for AL.

It is not as easy as some people make it out to be. Its not like you can just use AL stock instead of steel and it will work. An immense amount of structure would have to be added to make it strong again, and you lose much of the initial weight savings to get that strength back. As I pointed out above, the Viper frame only weighs around 400 pounds. A copy in aluminum would weigh roughly 150, but would require another 150-180 pounds of additional reinforcement to make it as strong as the steel original. would it even be possible to brace an AL frame in a Viper-Like body? Maybe not. To save 80-100 pounds? NO THANKS.

Now, if DC tossed on a set of light weight wheels and composite rotors to shave 100 pounds of UNSPRUNG, ROTATIONAL mass, I would spring for that in a heartbeat!

A good comparison I have seen is this:
-Take a weight belt such as for Scuba Diving, and put it on your waist. Jump up. Not that hard huh? Now, take those weights and strap them on your ankles- then try the same thing. Quite a bit harder, isnt it. Think of a car with heavy wheels and rotors as a basketball player trying to play with concrete shoes.
 

Vic

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How much would a titanium frame cost? Stronger than steel, and lighter, too. I know, I know, the cost/benefit ratio is off the scale, I can hear it now.

Why are things built the way they are? One reason is technical enertia, meaning, that we build upon concepts of the past. Everyone from engineers to suppliers are geared for the status quo, common materials and construction techniques.

In the early stages of horseless carriages, a frame was built by taking two timbers of the most plentiful and easily worked construction material around, or wood. Given the materials and fabrication techniques available of the day, that was perfectly acceptable. For that era! From that point on, we have still been making frames by taking two basic rails of some material, then tacking on all the components. The separation between the components and the framework adds unnescessary weight, but integration reduces weight. Traditional steel frame rails is a very rudimentary construction concept, going back to hewing out rails from a fallen tree, and laying them down to form a basic framework. This principle is as obsolete as a log cabin, since composites and bonding techniques have eclipsed steel frameworks.

If you start with the concept that a frame exists to hang components on, you relegate yourself to the same formulas and design elements that have faced engineers for 100 years. ie, a steel frame, with plastic and aluminum body parts, and various bits bolted to that frame. Sports cars end up weighing about 3000-3500 lbs with traditional techniques and materials.

What if you started with the concept of a stressed skin, where the body itself is responsible for some of the torsional and beaming forces, in conjunction with a composite frame? The body and frame can be the same material, formed at the same time. In essence, there is no separation in purpose and material between the body and the frame. For that matter, you could form the cylinder bore holes and main bearing bosses right into the composite structure! (Provided you had enough strength, or maybe with liners) For many years now, unitized body structure already takes advantage of integration between body and frame, but mostly in steel bodied cars, not so much with RTM or fiberglass, as in the Viper and Vette. In a fully integrated design, each component of the car would lend itself to the strucural integrity of the vehicle, "carrying their own weight". Kind of like the designs seen in nature, such as a simple leaf, where the center spine and leaf surface are intertwined into one seamless unit, and while very weak for our purposes, it boasts an impressive strength-to-weight ratio. The same principles of design can be applied to car design, on a bigger scale, with tougher materials. This is a more advanced design concept, that goes beyond taking two rails with cross members, and hanging everything on that. Oddly enough, the old VW Beetle had an well integrated frame, where the engine/tranny supports were an extension of the center spine, and the front torsion tubes also held the front suspension to the center spine. That is an early example of a high level of component/frame integration. While it was only done on a cheap car, the same principles of integration (albeit of different designs) can work equally well for a sports car, by reducing weight, and providing a high degree of rigidity.

Because of "technical enertia", costs for the latest and greatest technology are prohibitive, so you will see many more common designs of steel rails and X members for years to come. But as newer materials find their way into more widespread use, we may also see more use of stressed skins and composites, as the costs are spread into the mainstream of the auto industry. (Time to short steel stocks!)

Look at the Stealth fighter aircraft, thats where technology is headed, composites, high strength bonding techniques, more integration in design. Someday, the automotive industry may go that way also, and those left behind will complain about change, and be left in the dust of history like wooden wheelsmiths at the advent of the stamped steel wheel. Those who look ahead make the future happen, they invent and create, but unimaginative types who merely cling to the present are soon left in the past.
 

Catwood

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So where can I get a complete set of wheels and tires for 100#?
 

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