I need serious advice regarding titling issue ->

[artman]

First let me say, I love my Viper and have enjoyed meeting many like enthusiasts since owning it. Hope I am posting this in the correct spot ->

I purchased my Viper out of state (TX) in February (no it wasn't from Hennesey )

. Have paid for and have received the car obviously, but I have yet to receive the title from previous owner. He has acknowledged that due tax has not been paid in his state of TX and thus he does not have a title in his or anyone elses name. Have tried most all forms of contact with polite diligence and I am still unable to, at a minimum, have him register the car in TX so he can get the title available for transfer to myself. The last contact I had was 'I will get you a title if you pay the due TX taxes which is 6.75% of $76,000. I even offered to pay half just to get this over with; no response. This is total BS.........

I need your advice as to who to contact next such as TX DMV or any other authorities or recourse for getting a title, if possible, before I pursue civil action. Bottom line is I have a very expensive car which on paper I do not own.

BTW: The prev owner, at least, has been sending me a TX temp tag so I can ride. I am certain this will end once I lose my cool the next time we talk...

And yes, he did pay for and took delivery of the car as I have all original paperwork. He just never payed the tax to get it titled/registered.

Thanxs ahead.

 

[Janni]

Here's my bet...

Did the owner buy the car for cash or was there a lien on it? (His paperwork MAY show the first lienholder - or it may not, it it was done outside the dealership.)

I fear he has taken your money, spent / disposed of it, and now cannot get the title because its in the hands of a bank / credit union and he does not have the funds to get the lien released.

Admittedly, I am not familiar with the TX tax laws, but his excuse seems ODD. Most taxes are paid at the dealer and the car is then registered. (When's the last time you went to a dealer and had to then go to DMV and pay MORE money???) Dealers collect the taxes on behalf of the state. Now if he did not register the car at the dealer, I suppose its possible the not pay the taxes due at registration (like doing an out of state transaction...) But again - if you've already PAID him, the taqxes due thing is a lie because he does have enough $$$ to pay them. He may not, however, have enough money to pay off the lien, and therefore, cannot get the title. And is DMV gonna make him register the car for a year in order to sell it? That doesn't seem right. Lastly, if the car was paid for in $$$, then the dealer would have given him the title - so yes, he would have it.

Maybe the Texas guys can help out -but I'd start with contacting the Texas DMY in his area for starters. And then, unfortunately, you may need an attorney. I'd be afraid that the car is going to be the subject of a repossession... especially if he has not paid off the loan.

 

[MichaelP]

I will be goint to TX in 20 days. I would be happy to look this fine gentleman up and talk it over with him. Just PM me if you need some help.

 

[ewave]

In Texas when you purchase a vehicle, you have to pay 6.25% State sales tax. The tax is paid to the Tax Collectors office which is part of the DMV at the time that you title the car.

Now the law, (IMHO) is really screwed up. This has to do with when you purchase a vehicle that you were leasing. When you start the lease you pay sales tax on the total value of the vehicle (so for a Viper, tax on about $70K). Then if you chose to buy the vehicle at the end of the lease, once again you get to pay the sales tax on the Payoff value of the car (maybe this is about $50K value). At that time the title is transferred to you from the leasing company.

As a Texas Resident you can not get a title issued in your name without paying the sales tax.

The buyer of the car does not pay the sales tax to the seller. They pay it directly to the DMV.

Have you seen a copy of the title? Does the owner show up as a leasing company?

I'd be so angry if I was in your shoes. This should not be your financial obligation ot pay the Texas taxes, unless you are licensing the car in Texas. I'm sure you will have to pay your local state's sales tax.

This sounds like a really raw deal!

 

[artman]

Thanxs for the replies. Mike if you are serious I'll definitely take you up on your offer. . .

He bought the car new from Ohio and paid with cashiers check - it is lien free. Still has MSO etc., but the back of MSO has his name assigned to it. Dealer would not let a car go to private party without signing over the MSO. And of course the private party cannot sign over a MSO to another private party (me). I don't think there is a loophole, is there??

I am considering just paying the TX tax to get this over with and maybe sue him if possible. Worst part is I have NC tax also if and when I get to registering it here.

And Paul, you are right; it is not my obligation to pay his TX tax = $4750, plus my NC tax due - ouch. I wonder if he had or still is viewing this board......

 

[MichaelP]

Serious as a heart attack Art.

Email me with any info you have including VIN, sellers name, address, phone #'s any extra info like where he works or if he owns a business the business name.

Go back through all your emails with him and gather ANY and ALL info that might even be remotely helpful such as if he belongs to a Viper club, the name of his wife etc. Better to have too much info and not need it then hit a dead end. It would also be helpful if you could tell me how you found out he was selling. If it was ebay or the classifieds hopefully you took a screen shot of the listing.

The more info you can give me the better. These dirtbags have to learn their lesson DO NOT SCREW with this group.

Michael

[email protected]

 

[King GTS]

I WOULD NEVER EVER PAY THAT TAX!!

WHOEVER THIS IS, HE WAS DISHONEST FROM THE START! HE KNEW HE DIDN'T HAVE THE TITLE & HE KNEW YOU'D NEED IT TOO! THAT'S DECEPTIVE! I'D GO AHEAD AND LOSE MY COOL IF I WERE YOU. I ACTUALLY WOULD'VE ALREADY LOST MY COOL. I'D GIVE HIM A DEADLINE TO HAVE IT IN YOUR HANDS, OR HE'LL BE PAYING FOR YOUR ATTORNEY FEES, HIS ATTORNEY FEE'S, COURT COST, AND A LITTLE EXTRA FOR THE INCONVENIENCE. SORRY YOUR GOING THROUGH THIS. YOU MUST HAVE A REAL BAD TASTE IN YOUR MOUTH ABOUT TEXAS ALL TOGETHER BUT WE AREN'T ALL LIKE THAT LOSER.
WAS IT A DEALER OR AN INDIVIDUAL?

 

[artman]

I guess was just nieve. Actually didn't even think anything of it until a few weeks ago some friends at work mentioned a title is your OWNERSHIP. I am originally from Canada and they do 'titling' much different there; almost like an honor system - no legal document such as a title, just registration. Plus my ins co. sent me a letter a week ago saying I can lose liability coverage for he car because it is not registered anywhere so I need this resolved asap for that reason alone. And now that I fuming further you are all correct; I am not paying his tax but do need to get it registered - stuck between a rock and a rock I suppose.

 

[utahviper]

I talked with an attorney before I sold my last viper and he told me that whoever holds the title to the car owns the car. The gentlemen who bought my car wanted me to send him the title before he sent the money, so he could see if the title was clear. That's when I called my attorney and he said no way!

Be careful!!!

 

[grayman]

I am in the car titling business in Maryland. When a dealer in the US sells a new vehicle, he must provide the owner with the following: 1) CO - certificate of origin. The dealer will fill out the buyers name on the rear of the CO as well as any lien info to ensure it gets recorded that way in the buyer's home state, regardless of where that is. 2) Bill of sale made out to buyer 3) Odometer disclosure statement

The previous owner bought the vehicle out of state with the intent on registering in TX. Ohio dealer doesnt do out of state registrations for his customers, so he let the new owner take the paperwork and do it himself. Problem is, he never did. Now he is trying to sell a car, and apparently has, that he does not technically own until he titles in his home state.

Email me or call me...I have some ideas for you. Grayson H 410-586-3871.

Moral of story...Make sure you have title in hand when you fork over the cash or at least know where it is and what its status is.

 

[Anthony - 98 GTS]

Most states give you credit if you pay sales/registration tax in another state.

When you register the car in your name in North Carolina do you have to pay sales/registration tax? If yes, you could title the car in Texas in your name - pay the 6.25% tax - and then get a credit against the sales tax you have to pay to register the car in NC.

 

[Wing King]

Artman..... I've sent you a private e-mail to see if we can help you in Texas. Let me know.

 

[kverges]

Feel free to contact me; I have dealt with lost titles (gotten new title issued) and have researched the issue of sales of vehicles in TX as far as title is concerned. I was not sure about the CO stuff above; as far as I know that only applies to sales by manufacturers. Titles themselves are the negotiable instruments for car sales in TX.

The bottom line in TX is very simple. The title itself is the one and only evidence of ownership and unless you have it, properly negotiated to you by (1) the owner; and (2) any lienholder, YOU DO NOT OWN THE CAR. Possession is irrelevant and the car may be repossessed with your only recourse being an action against the "seller" to refund money you paid. Pretty poor recourse if the money is spent.

I would immediately insist on seeing at least a copy of the title to see what is going on. The "seller" might not even be the record owner, there might be a lien, or who knows what is going on. I can say that the "tax" issue sounds spurious to me. Someone (and not the state) has the "blue" title copy. They may want to be reimbursed for taxes or something like that, but someone has that title and they are at present first in line to possess that car. Until you have that figured out, it is impossible to tell how to resolve the problem. Don't wait on this, though, as the "seller" may not have spent all the money and you might be able to get enough back to cover the lien, taxes, or whatever is clouding the title.

I posted this publicly just so folks would know, at least in TX (and I think most states): Never, ever, part with money without a title. Unlike lots of property, possession and having paid in full are no defense when the record owner on the title comes looking for the car.

 

[MichaelP]

Thanks for the info Keith.

How would this work in TX? Person owns a car with a lien on it. Would the title be held by the bank? Then they have to pay off their loan to get the title so they could sign it over to you?

If so how could they give you the title until you give them the money and they settle the loan?

Thanks.

 

[artman]

Good info. I do not think there is no lien in my case. Prev owner paid cash for the car. I do have a copy of he MSO front and back given to him by the dealer in Ohio and on the back it is assigned to him and for lienholder it states 'none'. A thought, If I can obtain the original MSO that he supposedly has can I -somehow- get it assigned to me and I use that for registration in my home state?

 

[Dixter]

I think I can help with this... the seller by law has to surrender
the title within a 20 day period in Texas... this is to keep the
dealers from taking your money and putting it in their bank account
and drawing interest while the bank is holding the title...
I have a number at work that you can call and turn the person in...
They will start the process of fining him for the days he has not
given you the title...

I'll email it to you in the morning... ( when I get to work )

 

[Dixter]

Artman, First thing... concidering this is an out of state
transaction you should at least call your DOMV to see if they can help you. You might be OK and not know it.
In either case I would not pay the state of Texas any tax's...
The seller should take care of this...

Here are two numbers for people to assist with your issue. Remeber to collect as much factual info as you can. Its probably just a mis understanding between you and the seller. These folks will be able to give each of you the facts...

First number is the DMV in Collin County... 972-547-5014
Second number is the DMV enforcement dept... 800-687-7846

Between the two they should be able to get it all straight..

 

[grayman]

Artman cannot even pay the TX tax and hope to retitle in his home state getting some sort of credit for tax paid out of state. Reason is because dealer who originally sold car wrote buyers name at top back of CO. Dealer sold the car to that individual and car MUST be titled into that persons name. Artman cannot simply one line that guys name and write in his own or the CO will be voided. Dealers do this so they know who a vehicle will be titled to....otherwise a minor may put his name on the CO and claim an unlawful sale 3 years later for a full refund. What this guy did to you may technically constitute fraud and the vehicle was not yet officially recognized as HIS to sell until he declares it as so by registering in a state. You may try talking to the original dealer about obtaining a duplicate certificate of origin but, my guess is that the dealer will not be too interested in giving you any help. Good thing at least that there are no liens involved.

 

[artman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by grayman:
Artman cannot even pay the TX tax and hope to retitle in his home state getting some sort of credit for tax paid out of state. Reason is because dealer who originally sold car wrote buyers name at top back of CO. Dealer sold the car to that individual and car MUST be titled into that persons name. Artman cannot simply one line that guys name and write in his own or the CO will be voided. Dealers do this so they know who a vehicle will be titled to....otherwise a minor may put his name on the CO and claim an unlawful sale 3 years later for a full refund. What this guy did to you may technically constitute fraud and the vehicle was not yet officially recognized as HIS to sell until he declares it as so by registering in a state.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is 100% correct Grayman..... I sincerely appreciate all your advice. Special thanxs to Keith Verges for taking time from his busy law practice to offer me his guidance.

Appears my best bet now (costwise) is to pay the full TX tax (6.25% of original sell price), try to get the TX title in my name and then transfer to get my NC title; sort of like if I was moving in from out of state. I believe NC will give me a credit so I should be out $3000 or so (as my Max NC tax would have been $1500 - 3% of wholesale price up to $1500). Sad, as Keith stated to me "This guy is just having you pay the freight for his use of an unregistered car, which sort of offends me!" At this point, to me, $3000 is not worth suing over........ if I can get this resolved. Sad...

Well, at lease I have the actual goods in the Viper which I adore. Can't take that away from me at this point.

 

[Mike Brunton]

I hope this guy doesn't read this site....

It may be a little different in TX (I don't think so however), but to get a title, you take the CO with your name on it to the DMV, pay the tax, and in 3-4 weeks a title shows up at your home in your name.

If you pay the sales tax, the title will be issues TO THE PERSON WHO'SE NAME AND ADDRESS ARE ON THE CO!!! That means this guy will get a title at his house PROVING he owns this car. He could *easily* claim the car was stolen, or that he let you borrow it, or whatever - and your only recourse would be to sue him for the $$'s.

Do you have a bill of sale that shows he sold the car to you - or at least a receipt? Surely it was secured funds so there should be a paper trail.

If this were me, I would be freaking out BIG TIME at this point. I'm a sly SOB though and I would call the guy and be all friendly and tell him that my home state would give me a title if I had proof of purchase and proof that he willingly delivered the car, etc. At least he would be admitting selling the car, so that if you had to go to court later, you have documentation of that.

Anyone who has bought or sold more than one car knows these laws and regulations. I firmly believe this guy knew he did not really own the car, and probably figured that you would cave in and pay the tax after the fact. That's deceptive, AND he was selling something he DIDN'T own. I'd be LIVID.

 

[grayman]

That is correct. If you pay the TX sales tax, which by the way I think is even higher than 6.5%.....maybe 7.25% or so when the county of origin takes their bite too.... then the guy on the CO will get a TX title in the mail in a few weeks. He can then sign it over to you as a private sale. Private sale transactions vary state to state as far as documentation goes for tax purposes. Some states (ie Maryland) only require a notorized bill of sale to determine sales value for tax purposes. Other states are different. Im not sure what NC does....Ill check my book for you. But bottom line is you'll be paying full TX tax for this loser who sold you the car to get a title in his name. After which point, he will (hopefully) sign TX title over to you and you will pay sales tax in your state to register it again. You see, you know and I know that you paid the tax twice....but your state will only see it as if you bought the car from him and you will pay the tax to them. Of course, keep in mind....with private sale transfers tax is charged in many states on the value paid as determined by the seller and buyer. Remember, last time I checked it was still a free country...and if some guy is willing to sell you a car for $100, then so be it. Hate to see you get burned twice.

 

[Fast Viper Dan]

If you are going to pay the tax. Have the guy meet you at his local DMV and sine a note of sale at that time. DMV may be able to transfer title at that time knowing all fees have been payed.
Good Luck,
Dan

 

[Dixter]

Artman, Hey if your willing to just give up $3000 in tax money
to Texas for nothing why don't you just give me the money and
I'll do the leg work for you and get you the title...

I can do all kinds of things for an easy $3K...