MichaelP
Enthusiast
I have heard all the nice improvements in performance, now I hear it will not be legal for track use unless a roll bar is installed?
This can't be true.
This can't be true.
Is it true the SRT is not legal for track use?
- Thread starter MichaelP
- Start date
garolittle
Enthusiast
I keep hearing the same thing. I hope it is not true.
King GTS
Enthusiast
I heard the same thing from 1bad gts today. I don't think he would've posted it unless he knew for sure, so I'd have to say the source was good.
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
I guess it depends on what kind of track use you're talking about.
I drag race, and this car WILL be legal for drag racing just like the GTS is legal for drag racing. If you run below 12.00 in a coupe, YOU MUST HAVE A ROLL BAR! Any GTS should be able to run below 12.00, so to be legal to run a coupe, you need a roll bar.
In a convertible, you must have a roll bar if you run below 13.99.
The only difference is that not everyone can run below a 12.00 in a GTS - but most can... however most will be able to run 13.99 or lower in an SRT. So it's not like the SRT is "not legal", it's just that more people will be running fast enough to need a bar, that's all.
When the hardtop comes out, it should put the SRT in the same classification as a coupe in virtually all racing events. The SRT will be quicker and would probably still need a rollbar because it should run under 12.00 easier than a coupe.
As for road racing, one of the road racers would have to chime in on that one.
I drag race, and this car WILL be legal for drag racing just like the GTS is legal for drag racing. If you run below 12.00 in a coupe, YOU MUST HAVE A ROLL BAR! Any GTS should be able to run below 12.00, so to be legal to run a coupe, you need a roll bar.
In a convertible, you must have a roll bar if you run below 13.99.
The only difference is that not everyone can run below a 12.00 in a GTS - but most can... however most will be able to run 13.99 or lower in an SRT. So it's not like the SRT is "not legal", it's just that more people will be running fast enough to need a bar, that's all.
When the hardtop comes out, it should put the SRT in the same classification as a coupe in virtually all racing events. The SRT will be quicker and would probably still need a rollbar because it should run under 12.00 easier than a coupe.
As for road racing, one of the road racers would have to chime in on that one.
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
Mako,
In all fairness to Dodge, the focus groups were at VOI5 and I was there - and EVERYONE said they wanted a real convertible, more performance, etc, etc.
It's not like DC screwed people by making the car illegal for tracks - it's just the nature of the beast. You can't have a super high performance convertible and one that is going to be track legal right out of the box - just aint gonna happen. The hardtop will make the car road-course legal.
And to be honest, if you're THAT into racing that you can't wait a few months for the hardtop, then you're either a likely candidate for a Competition Coupe, OR you don't mind waiting over the winter to get a hardtop.
I just don't see this as being a downside to the SRT - it's a street car first and foremost, IMO.
In all fairness to Dodge, the focus groups were at VOI5 and I was there - and EVERYONE said they wanted a real convertible, more performance, etc, etc.
It's not like DC screwed people by making the car illegal for tracks - it's just the nature of the beast. You can't have a super high performance convertible and one that is going to be track legal right out of the box - just aint gonna happen. The hardtop will make the car road-course legal.
And to be honest, if you're THAT into racing that you can't wait a few months for the hardtop, then you're either a likely candidate for a Competition Coupe, OR you don't mind waiting over the winter to get a hardtop.
I just don't see this as being a downside to the SRT - it's a street car first and foremost, IMO.
Viperfreak2
Enthusiast
The twin hoops behind the seats ARE roll bars. I've seen tons of crash tests with these and they work. Why would I need to install another roll bar or hard top (useless) when the car already has them?
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
I am not sure, but doesn't it depend on EACH tracks rules? I can't tell you what each drag venue will decide, but I know that many convertibles run at Road America, Gingerman and Black Hawk. And if you REALLY want a track car I think you can get something called a Competition Coupe, which will be set up to run at ANY TRACK you desire. I have seen 360 Spyders and Cobras run with no top, so why would they not allow a SRT/10?
Surely depends on the track.... and the event. I've seen many 360's and other Ferrari's run without tops, along with many Vipers at Pocono.
As far as the Drag Racing NHRA rule, this is OLD news, as EVERY Viper is capable of breaking their existing rules, whether a coupe or a roadster! If I'm not mistaken, the letter didn't specify "SRT-10 Vipers", It just said to be aware that ALL Vipers do not meet NHRA restrictions as they all can run beyond set guidelines.
I've looked at some of the other convertible exotics in the marketplace and they all seem to have the double hoops, the Ferrari's seem to be a bit higher in relation to the seatback, but I'm not sure that really means anything. I think the rule is, on a roadcourse that is restricting convertibles, that you either need a hardtop, or they do a "broomstick test" where you, the helmeted driver, must be below the broomstick if they place the broomstick between the windshield header and the top of the rollhoop. (obviously to emulate the pavement in a rollover).
As far as the Drag Racing NHRA rule, this is OLD news, as EVERY Viper is capable of breaking their existing rules, whether a coupe or a roadster! If I'm not mistaken, the letter didn't specify "SRT-10 Vipers", It just said to be aware that ALL Vipers do not meet NHRA restrictions as they all can run beyond set guidelines.
I've looked at some of the other convertible exotics in the marketplace and they all seem to have the double hoops, the Ferrari's seem to be a bit higher in relation to the seatback, but I'm not sure that really means anything. I think the rule is, on a roadcourse that is restricting convertibles, that you either need a hardtop, or they do a "broomstick test" where you, the helmeted driver, must be below the broomstick if they place the broomstick between the windshield header and the top of the rollhoop. (obviously to emulate the pavement in a rollover).
SRTRICK
Enthusiast
I am not so certain that the removable hardtop will make any difference at most road courses unless it is a structural member. For example, in spec miata where they run with tops, they also have to have a full roll cage. the top does more for the aero of the car than it offers protection. In many cases, a removable hardtop would just tear off in a violent roll over and would actually add to the danger level when they are coming off, adding the risk of the top taking your head with them when they go.
I really wish that DC would get tgether with a reputable roll bar manufacturer and design a reasonable roll bar that would use the existing mounting points for the factory bars and would allow use of the convertible top, that would pass the broomstick test. This bar could have a removable diagonal crossbar that would run from the center of the bar to the right front of the passenger footwell like the Lotus Elise. Most track day events would allow the car to run with this type of setup and most owners don't want to run wheel to wheel in their street car anyway. If one really wanted a full race car with roll cage you would indeed be better off getting a comp coupe.
I really wish that DC would get tgether with a reputable roll bar manufacturer and design a reasonable roll bar that would use the existing mounting points for the factory bars and would allow use of the convertible top, that would pass the broomstick test. This bar could have a removable diagonal crossbar that would run from the center of the bar to the right front of the passenger footwell like the Lotus Elise. Most track day events would allow the car to run with this type of setup and most owners don't want to run wheel to wheel in their street car anyway. If one really wanted a full race car with roll cage you would indeed be better off getting a comp coupe.
MichaelP
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
Mako,
And to be honest, if you're THAT into racing that you can't wait a few months for the hardtop, then you're either a likely candidate for a Competition Coupe, OR you don't mind waiting over the winter to get a hardtop.
I just don't see this as being a downside to the SRT - it's a street car first and foremost, IMO.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You mean the thing does not already come with a hard top???
Also if it is a street car first and foremost than why the need to up the power?
I thought everyone was saying that the SRT was designed for maximum performance and it was directed by the Viper race team designers?
Mako,
And to be honest, if you're THAT into racing that you can't wait a few months for the hardtop, then you're either a likely candidate for a Competition Coupe, OR you don't mind waiting over the winter to get a hardtop.
I just don't see this as being a downside to the SRT - it's a street car first and foremost, IMO.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You mean the thing does not already come with a hard top???
Also if it is a street car first and foremost than why the need to up the power?
I thought everyone was saying that the SRT was designed for maximum performance and it was directed by the Viper race team designers?
MichaelP
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by manasas1:
The twin hoops behind the seats ARE roll bars. I've seen tons of crash tests with these and they work. Why would I need to install another roll bar or hard top (useless) when the car already has them?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Manasas you have seen tons of crash tests of the SRT-10 or other cars.
You WILL need a hard top and/or roll bar to race the SRT.
The twin hoops behind the seats ARE roll bars. I've seen tons of crash tests with these and they work. Why would I need to install another roll bar or hard top (useless) when the car already has them?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Manasas you have seen tons of crash tests of the SRT-10 or other cars.
You WILL need a hard top and/or roll bar to race the SRT.
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
They will or cannot put roll-bar mounting points in a street vehicle for legal reasons. They are not responsible for YOUR desire to track a car. That responsibility is in the hands of the owner. And again, if you want a race car then BUY one. DC's obligation to you is to make the Viper the fastest STREET LEGAL CAR they can for their customer. That is what you are getting. Now wether you want to change the sound, color, style, of SAFETY of YOUR Viper, it is completely up to YOU.
The SRT IS designed for maximum performance, but thanks to the DOT and EPA, certain elements have to be added to get street production certification....
so,
The comp coupe can be faster, better handling because it doesn't have to meet the pollution and noise mandates, safety mandates, ground clearance (have you ever driven up a driveway?) & even turning radius issues that occur during the homologation stages of making a production car.
... but needless to say, knowing PVO,
the SRT-10 will be AS CLOSE TO A RACECAR, OUT OF THE CRATE, that is allowable by law!
so,
The comp coupe can be faster, better handling because it doesn't have to meet the pollution and noise mandates, safety mandates, ground clearance (have you ever driven up a driveway?) & even turning radius issues that occur during the homologation stages of making a production car.
... but needless to say, knowing PVO,
the SRT-10 will be AS CLOSE TO A RACECAR, OUT OF THE CRATE, that is allowable by law!
MichaelP
Enthusiast
Rick I see you have an SRT on order congrats.
What Viper do you have now?
What Viper do you have now?
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
I thought the answers were obvious, but I'll play...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MichaelP:
You mean the thing does not already come with a hard top???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, it's been said all along that the hardtop will not be available until 6 months after the car is released. Perhaps they will include it in the MSRP? Who knows - but it will not roll off the truck with one.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Also if it is a street car first and foremost than why the need to up the power?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
By this logic, why do we need 450hp? Or even 100hp? A Geo Metro is sufficiently fast to break every speed limit in the USA, so why do we need more? What does the fact that it is a street car have to do with the power level? I will certainly enjoy driving a car thats much faster than my GTS on the street.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I thought everyone was saying that the SRT was designed for maximum performance and it was directed by the Viper race team designers?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It was directed by PVO to be one of the (if not THE) best performing car you can buy. Who ever said it was meant to be a race car? It appears it will do very well at that mission. If the point people are making is that the SRT is not as suitable for track use as the GTS was... well DUHHH. If the point is that modification will be required if one wants to make this into a track car... well DUHHH. If the point is that a coupe would require less modification to be a good track car and therefore DC should have done a coupe - well, now you're spouting opinion, and my opinion is I'd rather have a real convertible, and if I ever get really into racing, I'll buy a Comp. Coupe or a purpose built racecar. As long as I can bolt on a hardtop and go to the drag strip or road course, I'll be happy. If that isn't possible, well, I can still run at VCA sanctioned events which would be enough for me.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MichaelP:
You mean the thing does not already come with a hard top???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, it's been said all along that the hardtop will not be available until 6 months after the car is released. Perhaps they will include it in the MSRP? Who knows - but it will not roll off the truck with one.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Also if it is a street car first and foremost than why the need to up the power?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
By this logic, why do we need 450hp? Or even 100hp? A Geo Metro is sufficiently fast to break every speed limit in the USA, so why do we need more? What does the fact that it is a street car have to do with the power level? I will certainly enjoy driving a car thats much faster than my GTS on the street.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I thought everyone was saying that the SRT was designed for maximum performance and it was directed by the Viper race team designers?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It was directed by PVO to be one of the (if not THE) best performing car you can buy. Who ever said it was meant to be a race car? It appears it will do very well at that mission. If the point people are making is that the SRT is not as suitable for track use as the GTS was... well DUHHH. If the point is that modification will be required if one wants to make this into a track car... well DUHHH. If the point is that a coupe would require less modification to be a good track car and therefore DC should have done a coupe - well, now you're spouting opinion, and my opinion is I'd rather have a real convertible, and if I ever get really into racing, I'll buy a Comp. Coupe or a purpose built racecar. As long as I can bolt on a hardtop and go to the drag strip or road course, I'll be happy. If that isn't possible, well, I can still run at VCA sanctioned events which would be enough for me.
MichaelP
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
If the point is that a coupe would require less modification to be a good track car and therefore DC should have done a coupe - well, now you're spouting opinion, and my opinion is I'd rather have a real convertible, and if I ever get really into racing, I'll buy a Comp. Coupe or a purpose built racecar. As long as I can bolt on a hardtop and go to the drag strip or road course, I'll be happy. If that isn't possible, well, I can still run at VCA sanctioned events which would be enough for me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually wasn't making a point at all Mike Just asking a few questions. Did you happen to see the ???
Now if I was making a point I would say
The SRT looks like a piece of ****
See that would be making a point.
But since I do not feel that way I would not say that although others do.
If the point is that a coupe would require less modification to be a good track car and therefore DC should have done a coupe - well, now you're spouting opinion, and my opinion is I'd rather have a real convertible, and if I ever get really into racing, I'll buy a Comp. Coupe or a purpose built racecar. As long as I can bolt on a hardtop and go to the drag strip or road course, I'll be happy. If that isn't possible, well, I can still run at VCA sanctioned events which would be enough for me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually wasn't making a point at all Mike Just asking a few questions. Did you happen to see the ???
Now if I was making a point I would say
The SRT looks like a piece of ****
See that would be making a point.
But since I do not feel that way I would not say that although others do.
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
SRTrick, there is a big difference between purchasing a race car and a street car. First off, the race car is actually sold direct from the factory as a race car. The street car is sold through a dealer body. The race car is not certified for any street use, so the ONLY thing they have to make sure of is that the car is in condition to be raced on a track. The street car cannot even LEGALLY have 5 or 6 point belts in use on the street! The car you are purchasing is a street car. It has passed street legal crash testing. If they alter the structure in any manor, they need to run the $10,000,000 test AGAIN. What you are asking for is the same thing that many aftermarket companies will be doing once the SRT/10 is out, just as many have done with the existing body styles. Every action has a price.
slaughterj
Enthusiast
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
If that isn't possible, well, I can still run at VCA sanctioned events which would be enough for me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
VCA events are going to let SRTs run without hard-tops? I'm not an expert on VCA events, but for ViperDays at VIR, the rt/10s are required to have a hardtop (perhaps a track-specific rule, but still...).
If that isn't possible, well, I can still run at VCA sanctioned events which would be enough for me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
VCA events are going to let SRTs run without hard-tops? I'm not an expert on VCA events, but for ViperDays at VIR, the rt/10s are required to have a hardtop (perhaps a track-specific rule, but still...).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slaughterj:
VCA events are going to let SRTs run without hard-tops? I'm not an expert on VCA events, but for ViperDays at VIR, the rt/10s are required to have a hardtop (perhaps a track-specific rule, but still...).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SLAUGHTERJ..I'm far from an expert myself, but what was it like before the GTSs' came out? Were there any VCA events with the Gen I cars?(92-95 RT/10s). I bet there were, so shouldn't the same situation prevail?
VCA events are going to let SRTs run without hard-tops? I'm not an expert on VCA events, but for ViperDays at VIR, the rt/10s are required to have a hardtop (perhaps a track-specific rule, but still...).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SLAUGHTERJ..I'm far from an expert myself, but what was it like before the GTSs' came out? Were there any VCA events with the Gen I cars?(92-95 RT/10s). I bet there were, so shouldn't the same situation prevail?
SRTRICK
Enthusiast
It's kind of peculiar to build a car that can't possibly be used to it's potential legally on the street and then to say that "we can't make the rollbars crashworthy because of liability issues". It seems to me as though there would be liability issues in a car of this type if the "roll bars" didn't effectively protect you in a rollover because they are not tall enough.
Also, I didn't say that DC had to sell the roll bar, just provide assistance to a responsible aftermarket supplier. I assume that the stock mounting points for the roll bars are attached to a structural member, no?
Porsche has a similar situation in their club racer cars, and while they also will not sell a car with a roll bar installed, they will provide a roll cage to bolt into the car that can be shipped uninstalled.
Whatever.
Also, I didn't say that DC had to sell the roll bar, just provide assistance to a responsible aftermarket supplier. I assume that the stock mounting points for the roll bars are attached to a structural member, no?
Porsche has a similar situation in their club racer cars, and while they also will not sell a car with a roll bar installed, they will provide a roll cage to bolt into the car that can be shipped uninstalled.
Whatever.
It's really interesting to see the SRT people backpedaling; first they say "The SRT is the closest thing to a street legal racer you can get, it's gonna be 6.5 seconds faster around a track than a Gen II." (I got that info here ) Then they say "It really wasn't designed for track use, it's purely a street car, buy a Comp Coupe if you want to track something."
Which is it? Is the SRT designed with track use in mind, or to be a really fast street car? What was the initial vision for this car? I don't want to hear the same old "faster, more grip, better aero" reason. What was the intentions of PVO; you (the SRT defenders) say they listened to the attendants at various VOI's.. Did those Viper cognoscenti ask for a car which was faster, handled better, and was easier to drive which they couldn't use to it's full potential, at least not legally, on the street or road course/strip?
Sounds like someone's people didn't talk to someone else's people...
No Flame Intended, Just An Observation...
Which is it? Is the SRT designed with track use in mind, or to be a really fast street car? What was the initial vision for this car? I don't want to hear the same old "faster, more grip, better aero" reason. What was the intentions of PVO; you (the SRT defenders) say they listened to the attendants at various VOI's.. Did those Viper cognoscenti ask for a car which was faster, handled better, and was easier to drive which they couldn't use to it's full potential, at least not legally, on the street or road course/strip?
Sounds like someone's people didn't talk to someone else's people...
No Flame Intended, Just An Observation...
MichaelP
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
Who ever said it was meant to be a race car? It appears it will do very well at that mission. If the point people are making is that the SRT is not as suitable for track use as the GTS was... well DUHHH.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I see you asked me a simple question Mike.
Hmmmmmmm let me see, let me see where in the world did I read the SRT "was meant to be a race car?"
Well good golly wait a darn tootin minute I remember now a guy by the name of Mike Burton said
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
I will tell you guys this - there is going to be some AMAZING stuff out there that will make the SRT Viper the best track Viper ever. The new diff is a very good thing - but it doesn't begin to scratch the surface of the technology that will make this Viper quicker around the track than any previously available snake. Mark my words... just wait and see!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You aren't by any chance related to him are you ???
If you missed his post why don't you take a gander over here: http://vca1.viperclub.org/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000313.html
It is the 9th post down. To quote an infamous board member well DUHHH
Who ever said it was meant to be a race car? It appears it will do very well at that mission. If the point people are making is that the SRT is not as suitable for track use as the GTS was... well DUHHH.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I see you asked me a simple question Mike.
Hmmmmmmm let me see, let me see where in the world did I read the SRT "was meant to be a race car?"
Well good golly wait a darn tootin minute I remember now a guy by the name of Mike Burton said
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
I will tell you guys this - there is going to be some AMAZING stuff out there that will make the SRT Viper the best track Viper ever. The new diff is a very good thing - but it doesn't begin to scratch the surface of the technology that will make this Viper quicker around the track than any previously available snake. Mark my words... just wait and see!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You aren't by any chance related to him are you ???
If you missed his post why don't you take a gander over here: http://vca1.viperclub.org/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000313.html
It is the 9th post down. To quote an infamous board member well DUHHH
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MichaelP:
The SRT looks like a piece of ****
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And you would be wrong... you should have said "The SRT looks like a FAST piece of ****!!!"
Michael, don't let it get to you... it's JUST a message board! But I'm flattered my posts make such impressions on you.
To answer your question, I can't believe people aren't "getting" this. We all know the SRT is a STREET car. It is sold for use on the street. Now what is the complaint again? That Dodge somehow did something to make the car not race-track ready? Or that they neglected to do something that would have made it track-legal?
What could they have done? Put a factory roll bar in? Surely you're not saying they should have done that right? Or are you saying they should have made the coupe? Well, OK, I can see that point, but it doesn't talk to the point which is that the car is a street car that will be very at home on a track too. Did you know your GTS is not legal for drag racing if you can make it perform to it's potential? Did you know that your GTS will require extensive modification to be legal for virtually all sanctioned racing events? I'm sure you know that the GTS is not very track-ready for competition... needs things like brakes, etc.
So what is the complaint? That you can't drive to Viperdays, run your car, and drive home? Well I'm sure you can if you get a hardtop. Anyone who really is into the racing thing and wants to use the potential of the SRT would get a hardtop for racing - I know I will for drag racing.
I'm missing what the complaint is. The SRT is a street car that has extensive track capabilities. Just like the GTS, it will require modification to be legal in most sanctioned racing organizations. It will require the purchase of a hardtop if you really want to race it on the track... just like the GTS really requires the purchase of brakes if you really want to use it on the track.
I'd MUCH rather have a convertible I can drive top-down 99% of the time, and toss on the hardtop for the Friday night drags, or for the occasional time I get it on a road course... rather than having a coupe where I don't have the option to remove the top.
Isn't all of this blindingly obvious??? I dunno.. it's coming across as an extremely weak way of whining about the SRT. Maybe it's just me....
EDIT,
Regarding my post of a few months back about the SRT being the best track Viper yet... how isn't it? Have you seen the Vipers that race? They are nothing like street cars - gutted interiors, carbon fiber bodies, etc. These guys will buy competition coupes. For the other 95% of us that maybe get to the track once every few months, if that, the SRT will still vastly outperform the GTS. It's so obvious my brain is hurting... if you wanna race seriously, you get a CC. If you wanna race from time to time, you're going to need a hardtop. If you want to race just at sanctioned events like VOI's and zone events, you can do without the hardtop. I fail to see how the SRT is not a superior track car to the GTS. At least it doesn't need brakes... and they BOTH need roll bars for anything more than the occasional track jaunt.
The SRT looks like a piece of ****
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And you would be wrong... you should have said "The SRT looks like a FAST piece of ****!!!"
Michael, don't let it get to you... it's JUST a message board! But I'm flattered my posts make such impressions on you.
To answer your question, I can't believe people aren't "getting" this. We all know the SRT is a STREET car. It is sold for use on the street. Now what is the complaint again? That Dodge somehow did something to make the car not race-track ready? Or that they neglected to do something that would have made it track-legal?
What could they have done? Put a factory roll bar in? Surely you're not saying they should have done that right? Or are you saying they should have made the coupe? Well, OK, I can see that point, but it doesn't talk to the point which is that the car is a street car that will be very at home on a track too. Did you know your GTS is not legal for drag racing if you can make it perform to it's potential? Did you know that your GTS will require extensive modification to be legal for virtually all sanctioned racing events? I'm sure you know that the GTS is not very track-ready for competition... needs things like brakes, etc.
So what is the complaint? That you can't drive to Viperdays, run your car, and drive home? Well I'm sure you can if you get a hardtop. Anyone who really is into the racing thing and wants to use the potential of the SRT would get a hardtop for racing - I know I will for drag racing.
I'm missing what the complaint is. The SRT is a street car that has extensive track capabilities. Just like the GTS, it will require modification to be legal in most sanctioned racing organizations. It will require the purchase of a hardtop if you really want to race it on the track... just like the GTS really requires the purchase of brakes if you really want to use it on the track.
I'd MUCH rather have a convertible I can drive top-down 99% of the time, and toss on the hardtop for the Friday night drags, or for the occasional time I get it on a road course... rather than having a coupe where I don't have the option to remove the top.
Isn't all of this blindingly obvious??? I dunno.. it's coming across as an extremely weak way of whining about the SRT. Maybe it's just me....
EDIT,
Regarding my post of a few months back about the SRT being the best track Viper yet... how isn't it? Have you seen the Vipers that race? They are nothing like street cars - gutted interiors, carbon fiber bodies, etc. These guys will buy competition coupes. For the other 95% of us that maybe get to the track once every few months, if that, the SRT will still vastly outperform the GTS. It's so obvious my brain is hurting... if you wanna race seriously, you get a CC. If you wanna race from time to time, you're going to need a hardtop. If you want to race just at sanctioned events like VOI's and zone events, you can do without the hardtop. I fail to see how the SRT is not a superior track car to the GTS. At least it doesn't need brakes... and they BOTH need roll bars for anything more than the occasional track jaunt.
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slaughterj:
VCA events are going to let SRTs run without hard-tops? I'm not an expert on VCA events, but for ViperDays at VIR, the rt/10s are required to have a hardtop (perhaps a track-specific rule, but still...).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dunno about Viperdays... I do know that at VOI, they allowed RT/10's to run on the road course without tops. At the N.E. Zone Event, Vipers were allowed to run in the 11's without a roll-bar, which is in direct violation of NHRA rules.
I believe it would be up to the person who sets up the rules. Any Viper oriented event would have rules tailored to the Viper... so I woulnd't be surprised if they allow SRT's to run - although they might do something like require a hardtop.
VCA events are going to let SRTs run without hard-tops? I'm not an expert on VCA events, but for ViperDays at VIR, the rt/10s are required to have a hardtop (perhaps a track-specific rule, but still...).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dunno about Viperdays... I do know that at VOI, they allowed RT/10's to run on the road course without tops. At the N.E. Zone Event, Vipers were allowed to run in the 11's without a roll-bar, which is in direct violation of NHRA rules.
I believe it would be up to the person who sets up the rules. Any Viper oriented event would have rules tailored to the Viper... so I woulnd't be surprised if they allow SRT's to run - although they might do something like require a hardtop.
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clint Sever:
Is the SRT designed with track use in mind, or to be a really fast street car? What was the initial vision for this car? I don't want to hear the same old "faster, more grip, better aero" reason.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Clint,
It was designed to be the same thing the GTS is - an awesome street car that does very well on a track too. Can you explain to me how the SRT ISN'T a competent track car please????
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
What was the intentions of PVO; you (the SRT defenders) say they listened to the attendants at various VOI's.. Did those Viper cognoscenti ask for a car which was faster, handled better, and was easier to drive which they couldn't use to it's full potential, at least not legally, on the street or road course/strip?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uhh, well I was one of those folks, and in a new RT, *we* asked for faster, better handling, bigger engine, more power, and a real convertible. Can you explain what your statement "at least not legally on the street...." means. How is the SRT not street legal? How is it any less track legal than the GTS? Do you think coupes are magically legal and convertibles are not? The GTS isn't legal either for most sorts of racing. Certainly an SRT with a hardtop is every bit as legal as a coupe is. It remains to be seen how the SRT will be treated in racing events. Please explain your statements though...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Sounds like someone's people didn't talk to someone else's people...
No Flame Intended, Just An Observation...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll ask you the same thing I asked that other guy... what would YOU have DC do? The options are to either sell the car with a factory roll bar (never gonna happen), or sell it as a coupe. The car IS a convertible - just like the RT before it. Do you also think the RT is a stupid car because it's "not track legal"? If DC was going to do a convertible - which is their design goal, should they have made it slower so that nobody could say it wasn't legal? Why do you think they're coming out with a hardtop anyways?
With a hardtop, the SRT is every bit as legal as the GTS is. If you just want to race at the occasional VOI, etc, you don't even need a hardtop. If you want to race seriously, the SRT is as good a choice as the GTS is.
It's not like convertibles can't be used on a track.
Is the SRT designed with track use in mind, or to be a really fast street car? What was the initial vision for this car? I don't want to hear the same old "faster, more grip, better aero" reason.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Clint,
It was designed to be the same thing the GTS is - an awesome street car that does very well on a track too. Can you explain to me how the SRT ISN'T a competent track car please????
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
What was the intentions of PVO; you (the SRT defenders) say they listened to the attendants at various VOI's.. Did those Viper cognoscenti ask for a car which was faster, handled better, and was easier to drive which they couldn't use to it's full potential, at least not legally, on the street or road course/strip?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uhh, well I was one of those folks, and in a new RT, *we* asked for faster, better handling, bigger engine, more power, and a real convertible. Can you explain what your statement "at least not legally on the street...." means. How is the SRT not street legal? How is it any less track legal than the GTS? Do you think coupes are magically legal and convertibles are not? The GTS isn't legal either for most sorts of racing. Certainly an SRT with a hardtop is every bit as legal as a coupe is. It remains to be seen how the SRT will be treated in racing events. Please explain your statements though...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Sounds like someone's people didn't talk to someone else's people...
No Flame Intended, Just An Observation...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll ask you the same thing I asked that other guy... what would YOU have DC do? The options are to either sell the car with a factory roll bar (never gonna happen), or sell it as a coupe. The car IS a convertible - just like the RT before it. Do you also think the RT is a stupid car because it's "not track legal"? If DC was going to do a convertible - which is their design goal, should they have made it slower so that nobody could say it wasn't legal? Why do you think they're coming out with a hardtop anyways?
With a hardtop, the SRT is every bit as legal as the GTS is. If you just want to race at the occasional VOI, etc, you don't even need a hardtop. If you want to race seriously, the SRT is as good a choice as the GTS is.
It's not like convertibles can't be used on a track.
RoyV101621
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clint Sever:
Is the SRT designed with track use in mind, or to be a really fast street car? What was the initial vision for this car? I don't want to hear the same old "faster, more grip, better aero" reason. What was the intentions of PVO;
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How about "We where getting are butts kicked by all the car magazines."
Is the SRT designed with track use in mind, or to be a really fast street car? What was the initial vision for this car? I don't want to hear the same old "faster, more grip, better aero" reason. What was the intentions of PVO;
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How about "We where getting are butts kicked by all the car magazines."
SEASNAKE
Enthusiast
I can't believe Dodge made this car without designing a hard top to be bought with the car. This is my biggest disappointment with the SRT, especially after dealing with so many questionable aftermarket products on my old Gen 1. I was going to wait on the SRT after I wrecked my old one, but decided against it after learning this and seeing the pics. Its a shame because it had everything I wanted (convertible, side pipes, power). I also don't understand why they built it without planning for the hardtop and having one available.
Lee00blacksilverGTS
Enthusiast
Clown shoe? Hey, are'nt you da' guy with the minivan.."breadbox" and the wagon?...I still really, really, really wanna' buy that wagon if it EVER goes on the market! And speaking of that, and of course in the wrong forum, did it ever get finished, painted etc. Seriously, did you get it done, and if you did..PICTURES PLEASE!
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark O:
Then why did you buy a GTS instaed of an RT/10????? Your also assuming that a hard top is availble for the SRT.
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I hate how the RT/10 looks... I love how the GTS looks. It had *nothing* to do with track-worthiness.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Funny, last year you were ecstatic at your high 11 quarter mile times in your GTS, & now that same Viper is just an old "clown shoe". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not true... I still love GTS Vipers - and I wish I still had mine. But it *IS* just a car. I think guys like you place way too much stock in what it is. it's not the best car ever made, it's not a magical machine, and it's not in the same league as a Ferrari - it's a Dodge.. one that looks awesome and performs just as good, but it's still a Dodge. That's what the SRT will be too.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Mike, why waste all of this time & effort defending the SRT. When something else comes along that'll have 3 horsepower more than the SRT, you'll jump ship & go to that camp.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jump ship? Come on - how can you be soooo loyal to a CAR manufacturer. They are not your beneficiary, they are not your friends, they are a company. I have no more loyalty to Dodge than I have to Hitachi (who'se TV I happen to have right now). I buy what I like... I never let silly notions of brand loyalty sway my decisions.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
For you, the SRT is now the greatest thing since sliced bread. It could look like a **** & you wouldn't care. But I can see the great SRT of today will be your "clown shoe" of the future.
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I would care - I happen to think it looks great. Maybe that's the problem here - do you feel DC is hurting it's great legacy? What did you do during the late 70's and 80's??? Sit at home depressed that Mopar didn't make any performance cars worth buying? Geez, you missed out on some GREAT cars. My '88 Vette with the big LPE motor was awesome - so was the turbo TA, and the RX-7's I owned and the 300ZX's and others too. Seriously, if you follow DC around, you're really missing out. The Viper is just a car - nothing more. Do you know I actually know of Ford guys who would not be friends with someone who owned a Chevy? I am amazed that sort of thing exists - you're sounding like those guys.
Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to buy an SRT since I'm not a "loyal" owner? The days of loyalty to a company (and one that makes CARS at that) are long gone. DC hasn't been resting on it's laurels for years now, and they will continue not to rest on them in years to come - lest they lose sales to folks like me who don't care if there is a DC, GM, BMW, or Ford emblem on the hood.
Then why did you buy a GTS instaed of an RT/10????? Your also assuming that a hard top is availble for the SRT.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hate how the RT/10 looks... I love how the GTS looks. It had *nothing* to do with track-worthiness.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Funny, last year you were ecstatic at your high 11 quarter mile times in your GTS, & now that same Viper is just an old "clown shoe". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not true... I still love GTS Vipers - and I wish I still had mine. But it *IS* just a car. I think guys like you place way too much stock in what it is. it's not the best car ever made, it's not a magical machine, and it's not in the same league as a Ferrari - it's a Dodge.. one that looks awesome and performs just as good, but it's still a Dodge. That's what the SRT will be too.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Mike, why waste all of this time & effort defending the SRT. When something else comes along that'll have 3 horsepower more than the SRT, you'll jump ship & go to that camp.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jump ship? Come on - how can you be soooo loyal to a CAR manufacturer. They are not your beneficiary, they are not your friends, they are a company. I have no more loyalty to Dodge than I have to Hitachi (who'se TV I happen to have right now). I buy what I like... I never let silly notions of brand loyalty sway my decisions.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
For you, the SRT is now the greatest thing since sliced bread. It could look like a **** & you wouldn't care. But I can see the great SRT of today will be your "clown shoe" of the future.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would care - I happen to think it looks great. Maybe that's the problem here - do you feel DC is hurting it's great legacy? What did you do during the late 70's and 80's??? Sit at home depressed that Mopar didn't make any performance cars worth buying? Geez, you missed out on some GREAT cars. My '88 Vette with the big LPE motor was awesome - so was the turbo TA, and the RX-7's I owned and the 300ZX's and others too. Seriously, if you follow DC around, you're really missing out. The Viper is just a car - nothing more. Do you know I actually know of Ford guys who would not be friends with someone who owned a Chevy? I am amazed that sort of thing exists - you're sounding like those guys.
Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to buy an SRT since I'm not a "loyal" owner? The days of loyalty to a company (and one that makes CARS at that) are long gone. DC hasn't been resting on it's laurels for years now, and they will continue not to rest on them in years to come - lest they lose sales to folks like me who don't care if there is a DC, GM, BMW, or Ford emblem on the hood.
Janni
Enthusiast
OK, I have to clear something up here... as one of the people that sat in the room and voiced her opinion about what I wanted in the next generation Viper (I was the ONLY one that asked for the curves to be kept (double bubble roof, GREAT butt) all the motorheads just looked at me like I was a freak....)
We were all discussing convertible vs roadster issues, i.e. would you like a true convertible instead of a roadster. To that everyone agreed.
But, and this is a big but, NO ONE THOUGHT THAT WAS GOING TO BE AT THE EXPENSE OF GETTING A COUPE! Maybe that was naive, but this is the first time we have gone through a redesign. The coupe people natually assumed they would still have an option - and THAT is why there was so much focus on more power, better brakes (certainly not a drag racing issue???) and better handling - because of the track rats. If we ever thought it would be an either / or situation, you can bet your dang bippy that folks would have been more vocal about wanting a fixed roof so that they could continue to enjoy their car on the track.
I think all this complaining is that folks never expected to lose the coupe option. Maybe we should have known... Ah, to be able to turn back the clock.....
We were all discussing convertible vs roadster issues, i.e. would you like a true convertible instead of a roadster. To that everyone agreed.
But, and this is a big but, NO ONE THOUGHT THAT WAS GOING TO BE AT THE EXPENSE OF GETTING A COUPE! Maybe that was naive, but this is the first time we have gone through a redesign. The coupe people natually assumed they would still have an option - and THAT is why there was so much focus on more power, better brakes (certainly not a drag racing issue???) and better handling - because of the track rats. If we ever thought it would be an either / or situation, you can bet your dang bippy that folks would have been more vocal about wanting a fixed roof so that they could continue to enjoy their car on the track.
I think all this complaining is that folks never expected to lose the coupe option. Maybe we should have known... Ah, to be able to turn back the clock.....
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