It's not 0.08 seconds

[ipetrov]

It's more like 2.2 seconds.

We have a perfect apples-to-apples comparison hidden in plain view: same expert driver (MT's Stig), multiple test laps, stock production cars with 100% streetable and comparable rain-ready tires, and what appear to be decent driving conditions (dry sunny track). It's the 2013 production-spec'd Viper(s) vs. the 2009 ZR1 (presumably not equipped with the alleged 2012 Ringer Edition 40 whp power bump). Moreover, Randy was new to the ZR1 platform at that point, just like he was with these recent Vipers.

T/A time 1.33.62
ZR1 time 1.35.80 For a difference of 2.18 sec

The production GTS and SRT cars bested the ZR1 comparable time by between 1 and 1.5 seconds.

And if you see the 2009 ZR1 test video, Randy was so focused on making a good lap, he didn't even utter a word during his hot lap, then mentioned that he had to be fully focused because of the explosive power of the car (hint hint - regular street tires).

http://www.motortrend.com/av/featur...rolet_corvette_zr1_laguna_seca_hot_lap_video/

A better apples-to-spples comparison to the 2012 ZR1 time of 1.33.70 would be the T/A's 1.30.XX time on slicks (although the T/A obviously has the unfair edge). But it's beyond any doubt that the T/A would shed at least a second from it's best time on a MPSC-comparable compound, so the difference would be a lot more than 0.08 seconds.

I'm not trying to be a fanboy of the new car (although I am very impressed by what the SRT team accomplished) and am genuinely interested in hearing why what I posted is wrong.

 

[Makara]

Sounds pretty fan boy to me.

 

[stingray23]

some of you guys are just reaching too far.

 

[bluestreak]

No, not really, Corsas are not as fast as MPSC, but they are CERTAINLY faster than PS2's. They are R-compound Rubber, as are MPSC. PS2's are not.

The gap, like you mention IS bigger, but not that much and the only way to get an exact number would be to run them on the exact same tire on the same day.

MotorTrend are you listening?!?!? Milk this cow and re-do the whole showdown with the same Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Tire. Tell SRT to get you some tires for a 10' ACR and put those suckers on there and run it!!! Bring back the ZR-1 and run it again, and let Randy go nuts!!!!

Battle of the century, American Muscle at it's best beating down the rest world while fighting for king of the hill!!!!!

 

[ViperSmith]

Everyone is reading into everything too much. Who cares, it did what it did. I still don't see the fascination and obsession over lap times by the pros.

Drive your cars as good as you can and enjoy it.

 

[stingray23]

No, not really, Corsas are not as fast as MPSC, but they are CERTAINLY faster than PS2's. They are R-compound Rubber, as are MPSC. PS2's are not.

The gap, like you mention IS bigger, but not that much and the only way to get an exact number would be to run them on the exact same tire on the same day.

MotorTrend are you listening?!?!? Milk this cow and re-do the whole showdown with the same Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Tire. Tell SRT to get you some tires for a 10' ACR and put those suckers on there and run it!!! Bring back the ZR-1 and run it again, and let Randy go nuts!!!!

Battle of the century, American Muscle at it's best beating down the rest world while fighting for king of the hill!!!!!

Does it get any better then that? Whether you're a fan of the Viper or the Corvette or even both, at the end of the day, Our American cars are kicking ass! No one can deny that.

 

[madninjaskillz]

Sounds pretty fan boy to me.

As a fan boy, I'm offended. Go back to the Vette forums. You are clearly a troll.

 

[ipetrov]

Thank you, this is the kind of criticism I wanted to hear. I guess for some people any post that seems to portray the new Viper in a good light condemns the author to eternal "fanboy" hell. Whatever. I don't like the new front end styling to begin with. Nothing in my post is not a factually documented fact, I was only asking for input on the validity of the drawn conclusion.

And yes, I think that lap times around world famous tracks do matter for most Viper guys.

No, not really, Corsas are not as fast as MPSC, but they are CERTAINLY faster than PS2's. They are R-compound Rubber, as are MPSC. PS2's are not.
The gap, like you mention IS bigger, but not that much and the only way to get an exact number would be to run them on the exact same tire on the same day.

MotorTrend are you listening?!?!? Milk this cow and re-do the whole showdown with the same Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Tire. Tell SRT to get you some tires for a 10' ACR and put those suckers on there and run it!!! Bring back the ZR-1 and run it again, and let Randy go nuts!!!!

Battle of the century, American Muscle at it's best beating down the rest world while fighting for king of the hill!!!!!

 

[VENOM V]

[/B]

Does it get any better then that? Whether you're a fan of the Viper or the Corvette or even both, at the end of the day, Our American cars are kicking ass! No one can deny that.

Amen, brother. I was reflecting on this the other day. These really are the glory days the supercar, and America is leading the world. If I weren't getting a Viper, the only other I would seriously consider is a Corvette. Look at Laguna Seca, look at 12 Hours of Sebring, look at Nurburgring. Proud of both GM and SRT, proud to be an American. Damn I know that sounds sappy, but we will look back on these glory days and tell stories for decades. Appreciate this moment in time.

 

[1BADGTS]

It's more like 2.2 seconds.

We have a perfect apples-to-apples comparison hidden in plain view: same expert driver (MT's Stig), multiple test laps, stock production cars with 100% streetable and comparable rain-ready tires, and what appear to be decent driving conditions (dry sunny track). It's the 2013 production-spec'd Viper(s) vs. the 2009 ZR1 (presumably not equipped with the alleged 2012 Ringer Edition 40 whp power bump). Moreover, Randy was new to the ZR1 platform at that point, just like he was with these recent Vipers.

T/A time 1.33.62
ZR1 time 1.35.80 For a difference of 2.18 sec

The production GTS and SRT cars bested the ZR1 comparable time by between 1 and 1.5 seconds.

And if you see the 2009 ZR1 test video, Randy was so focused on making a good lap, he didn't even utter a word during his hot lap, then mentioned that he had to be fully focused because of the explosive power of the car (hint hint - regular street tires).

http://www.motortrend.com/av/featur...rolet_corvette_zr1_laguna_seca_hot_lap_video/

A better apples-to-spples comparison to the 2012 ZR1 time of 1.33.70 would be the T/A's 1.30.XX time on slicks (although the T/A obviously has the unfair edge). But it's beyond any doubt that the T/A would shed at least a second from it's best time on a MPSC-comparable compound, so the difference would be a lot more than 0.08 seconds.

I'm not trying to be a fanboy of the new car (although I am very impressed by what the SRT team accomplished) and am genuinely interested in hearing why what I posted is wrong.

Having appropriated more private cars(VIPERS ECT ) for mag tests than i can count literally i can tell you first hand THERE ARE NO RINGER CARS (unless a prototype is involved )Mag test cars(be it GM ,FORD OR DODGE ) COME FROM THE MARKETING DEPT NOT THE PERFORMANCE DIVISION When a car is requested marketing doesnt ask (or care )what it being used for Often the same car goes from mag to mag as test mules.

 

[stingray23]

Amen, brother. I was reflecting on this the other day. These really are the glory days the supercar, and America is leading the world. If I weren't getting a Viper, the only other I would seriously consider is a Corvette. Look at Laguna Seca, look at 12 Hours of Sebring, look at Nurburgring. Proud of both GM and SRT, proud to be an American. Damn I know that sounds sappy, but we will look back on these glory days and tell stories for decades. Appreciate this moment in time.

And they say our cars cant handle. LOL!!!!

 

[ipetrov]

Duly noted, but that's why I used the qualifier "alleged". No one even alleged any shennanigans for the 2009 test.

I didn't like the countless excuses after the original Viper v. ZR1 controversy - tires, brakes, ringers, dynos with hoods open, toe link problems on the GTS, lack of driver skills, you name it. That's why the only things I'm interested are two: i) actual third party documented lap tests, and ii) apples-to-apples comparisons.

I thought the 2013 Viper vs. the 2009 ZR1 comparo fitted both criteria, but bluestreak provided an excellent argument to expose a flaw in my thinking. Now I know I'm wrong and I know why, and that was the whole point. There's nothing wrong with being wrong unless you don't learn anything from it and stick to being either in the whining bashers or eternal fanboys camps.

Having appropriated more private cars(VIPERS ECT ) for mag tests than i can count literally i can tell you first hand THERE ARE NO RINGER CARS (unless a prototype is involved )Mag test cars(be it GM ,FORD OR DODGE ) COME FROM THE MARKETING DEPT NOT THE PERFORMANCE DIVISION When a car is requested marketing doesnt ask (or care )what it being used for Often the same car goes from mag to mag as test mules.

 

[Makara]

No, not really, Corsas are not as fast as MPSC, but they are CERTAINLY faster than PS2's. They are R-compound Rubber, as are MPSC. PS2's are not.

The gap, like you mention IS bigger, but not that much and the only way to get an exact number would be to run them on the exact same tire on the same day.

MotorTrend are you listening?!?!? Milk this cow and re-do the whole showdown with the same Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Tire. Tell SRT to get you some tires for a 10' ACR and put those suckers on there and run it!!! Bring back the ZR-1 and run it again, and let Randy go nuts!!!!

Battle of the century, American Muscle at it's best beating down the rest world while fighting for king of the hill!!!!!

If they were to be run on the same tire, then both cars wouldn't be stock either. MPSCs don't even come in the correct size for the Gen V either, do they? We went through this whole thing back when the ACR beat the ZR1 and the vette fanboys were up in arms over the tires not being fair. All the viper guys said stock is stock. Fast forward a few years and now the viper fanboys are moaning about the tires not being fair. Stock is stock. The Gen V still edged out the outgoing vette on superior tires. Be happy with that and hope that more improvements keep coming that keep the viper out front against the fury that GM will undoubtably unleash in retaliation in a few years. With Ralph at the helm, I think that we are in good hands with someone who is passionate about making the best, most fun car he can with the budget.

It doesn't make one a troll to not drink the kool-aid and see things for what they are.


...and yes, it is quite a battle going on and it is very cool that it is two cars from the States that are in the lead against the mega buck cars. I think that the Hyuara, LaFerrari, and P1 will knock both cars down a peg, but we'll see...

 

[BlackSnake99]

This thread made my head hurt.

 

[mad0953]

What's a fanboy?

 

[ipetrov]

Here...

 

[SnakeBitten]

Botomline is the two cars are essentially equal in performance at Laguna...............................As long as the Viper is wearing Corsa's that is

 

[bluestreak]

Yeah yeah yeah, who cares. The Viper has come on MPSC before so its not like they bought some aftermarket stuff. Even if they are not the correct size they would still be faster. Would be a unique test, breaking the mold. Besides, Pirelli slicks dont come on the Viper stock either do they but they sure tested it didnt they?

Hardly anyone (fast) drives at the track on stock tires. Lets see who's car is actually faster by equalizing tires.

Heck they could put them both on hoosiers for all I care. It would be more like racing that way. Both SRT and Corvette run Michelins in ALMS. Somebody needs to step outside of the box. Would be a fun test between american rivals and more like what you would see at a track day.

If they were to be run on the same tire, then both cars wouldn't be stock either. MPSCs don't even come in the correct size for the Gen V either, do they? We went through this whole thing back when the ACR beat the ZR1 and the vette fanboys were up in arms over the tires not being fair. All the viper guys said stock is stock. Fast forward a few years and now the viper fanboys are moaning about the tires not being fair. Stock is stock. The Gen V still edged out the outgoing vette on superior tires. Be happy with that and hope that more improvements keep coming that keep the viper out front against the fury that GM will undoubtably unleash in retaliation in a few years. With Ralph at the helm, I think that we are in good hands with someone who is passionate about making the best, most fun car he can with the budget.

It doesn't make one a troll to not drink the kool-aid and see things for what they are.


...and yes, it is quite a battle going on and it is very cool that it is two cars from the States that are in the lead against the mega buck cars. I think that the Hyuara, LaFerrari, and P1 will knock both cars down a peg, but we'll see...

 

[Makara]

Yeah yeah yeah, who cares.

Nearly every viper fan cared a whole lot when it was the vette guys who were crying about the tires. The tables turned and you see what happened here. At any rate, I would like to see both cars on slicks run against each other and I imagine that the TA would come out a bit ahead all things considered. To keep things in perspective though, it was a 8/100th of a second that the viper beat the ZR1 by though, with a car that only 33 are being made of. I'm glad that Ralph was able to step up quickly with the TA, but it isn't victory dance material yet. Hopefully the suspension tweaks will find their way to the other cars and the ACR will drop the hammer just in time to make the next ZR1 and Z06 look bad.

Speaking of the ACR, if it gets a power upgrade, I would like to see all of the vipers get them. I have always liked the fact that the ACR has always been essentially a regular viper with a few tweaks here and there that help the car on the track.

 

[ipetrov]

I sincerely hope the new Z06/ZR1 Corvettes turn out to be the fire-breathing monsters everyone's expecting them to be. As you guys said, there's nothing better for both brands and for the consumer than their fierce rivalry. I really like the outgoing z06 and almost bought one instead of my viper.

My concern is that GM doesn't run out of budget to make the cars competitive yet affordable enough for the target audience. We've already written them a pretty tall order, so I hope they'll follow through without cutting corners (problematic valvetrains with the '06-'12 z06 come to mind). There was barely any demand for a $100k Corvette, I can't imagine how much smaller it would be at $140k. We already know what total worldwide demand is for a $200k Vette - 8 units (Pratt & Miller C6RS).

Hopefully economies of scale at GM and things like cheaper carbon fiber manufacturing will be the saving grace for the upcoming Chevy top dogs, so that we can continue to enjoy this fantastic rivalry.

 

[TrackAire]

Yeah yeah yeah, who cares. The Viper has come on MPSC before so its not like they bought some aftermarket stuff. Even if they are not the correct size they would still be faster. Would be a unique test, breaking the mold. Besides, Pirelli slicks dont come on the Viper stock either do they but they sure tested it didnt they?

Hardly anyone (fast) drives at the track on stock tires. Lets see who's car is actually faster by equalizing tires.

Heck they could put them both on hoosiers for all I care. It would be more like racing that way. Both SRT and Corvette run Michelins in ALMS. Somebody needs to step outside of the box. Would be a fun test between american rivals and more like what you would see at a track day.

Great idea, but I know that on my track days I don't do just one or two fast laps. I've posted this before, but I want to know how my performance car can handle at least 10 laps in moderate heat....at least 3 or 4 sessions in one day.

That will show the real bones of a car....anything weak will rear it's ugly head. 85% of the performance cars available can't handle the track....heat soak, brake fade, oil temps, over heating, transmissions overheating, etc.

Come on Motor Trend, here is your chance to have a new "industry standard" for testing performance cars. Summer is just a couple of months away, start lining up some contestants (good luck getting manufacturers to give you cars for this torture session....most don't want to get embarrassed) and put them to the test!!

Cheers,
George

 

[bluestreak]

Tires are a big part of today's modern technology, it's the manufacturers responsibility to put tires on a car that will still make it competitive with the competition. GM finally stepped up and did so after years of putting crappy rubber on supercars. I don't care what kind of tire it is as long as it's the same tire, it will tell us which car is the fastest without regards to tire deficiencies. I think everyone would love to see that result. Both groups at least have experience with Sport Cups so that would probably be the easiest choice.

Nearly every viper fan cared a whole lot when it was the vette guys who were crying about the tires. The tables turned and you see what happened here. At any rate, I would like to see both cars on slicks run against each other and I imagine that the TA would come out a bit ahead all things considered. To keep things in perspective though, it was a 8/100th of a second that the viper beat the ZR1 by though, with a car that only 33 are being made of. I'm glad that Ralph was able to step up quickly with the TA, but it isn't victory dance material yet. Hopefully the suspension tweaks will find their way to the other cars and the ACR will drop the hammer just in time to make the next ZR1 and Z06 look bad.

Speaking of the ACR, if it gets a power upgrade, I would like to see all of the vipers get them. I have always liked the fact that the ACR has always been essentially a regular viper with a few tweaks here and there that help the car on the track.

On stock pads and fluid, most any stock cars driven at Randy Pobst's pace are not going to last for 10 straight laps. It's pretty much mandatory that you upgrade pads and fluid for the track even in today's track oriented cars. Many times you will need to add additional brake cooling as well. I run Time Trials, so I'm okay with 3-5 laps at pace and for them to take an average to see which car will last because many of them won't even last that long (Ahem GT-R) at full clip.

Also the other problem is that most of the bench racers don't actually know anything about the track so all they care about is that one flying lap time, regardless of if you have to do a cooldown lap immediately after that flying lap. They don't understand how frustrating it is to have to do that while your friends and fellow enthusiasts leave you in the dust while you are waiting on your car to cool down.

Great idea, but I know that on my track days I don't do just one or two fast laps. I've posted this before, but I want to know how my performance car can handle at least 10 laps in moderate heat....at least 3 or 4 sessions in one day.

That will show the real bones of a car....anything weak will rear it's ugly head. 85% of the performance cars available can't handle the track....heat soak, brake fade, oil temps, over heating, transmissions overheating, etc.

Come on Motor Trend, here is your chance to have a new "industry standard" for testing performance cars. Summer is just a couple of months away, start lining up some contestants (good luck getting manufacturers to give you cars for this torture session....most don't want to get embarrassed) and put them to the test!!

Cheers,
George

 

[1BADGTS]

LOL the fact of the matter is EXTREMELY FEW (approx 5%)of buyers will ever take any of these 125k cars out on a roadcourse and beat the hell out of them (if they do it will come down to driver skill WAY BEFORE WHICH CAR IS SUPERIOR ) but it makes for great debates.

 

[Makara]

LOL the fact of the matter is EXTREMELY FEW (approx 5%)of buyers will ever take any of these 125k cars out on a roadcourse and beat the hell out of them (if they do it will come down to driver skill WAY BEFORE WHICH CAR IS SUPERIOR ) but it makes for great debates.

Yeah, but if there are two drivers with equal skill on that track, all 33 SRT Viper TAs would win by .08 of a second.

 

[Coloviper]

Makara, are you for real? Just buy the Vette already. It is ever apparent in every post you write which car you want. Gets a little old and predictable with the Vette worship.

 

[Makara]

Makara, are you for real? Just buy the Vette already. It is ever apparent in every post you write which car you want. Gets a little old and predictable with the Vette worship.

Vette worship? Why did I buy three vipers then?

 

[BlackSnake99]

Yeah, but if there are two drivers with equal skill on that track, all 33 SRT Viper TAs would win by .08 of a second.

Makara, are you for real? Just buy the Vette already. It is ever apparent in every post you write which car you want. Gets a little old and predictable with the Vette worship.

Sounds like Makara was DEFENDING the Viper to me, as I have seen him do consistently.

 

[ipetrov]

DING DING DING DING! We have a winner.

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...edition-with-sport-cups?p=3168542#post3168542

Turns out I was right on the money after all...

 

[Policy Limits]

Like the average owner could drive like Randy & get the car to its limits anyway...its laughable. Its a great performance machine period. just drive it and enjoy it. Its not thefastest car out there. But its one of the coolest and has lots of soul.

BTW I'd hafta disagree with the sentiment that American brands are on top. They've come a long way but german, italian, japanese and english brands all have outstanding models out there and the competition has never been stiffer. And last I checked it was nissan McLaren and lambo that had cars going 0-60 in 2 seconds, and not in 3 seconds.

 

[bigmack339]

GM builds the Corvette to compete with Porsche. Why do we compare and/ or care?