MASH'S APEX 550 STROKER

[Torquemonster]

MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Does anyone know if the Mash ever get his car sorted in the end?

Seems there were some assurances made that he would be looked after, but we've heard nothing since. Normally that isn't good news....

 

[GaryA]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I thought Apex got out of the Viper business. I hope they still work things out with Mash.

 

[RedSnakeGTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

i cant [******]!ng believe they got out of the business. all these advancements they said they had, and TONS of money wasted on R&D. i had no idea!

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Bill gave his word on this forum that things would be sorted properly. I'd like to hear he made good on that whether they're still in the Viper business or not - his word is his word.

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Word is a word...if he does not have a contract that could be hard. I wish him all the best.

 

[MaxedGTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I didn't know that Apex wasn't doing viper performance anymore . Does anybody know why?

Max

 

[Gerald]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

i cant [******]!ng believe they got out of the business. all these advancements they said they had, and TONS of money wasted on R&D. i had no idea!

I could read between the lines on everyone of their posts. It was actually kind of amusing.. I'm sure many would agree. I think the Apex 2400000 was next.
It's sad, ppl will beleive anything they read...

Good Luck to Mash

Gerald

 

[RedSnakeGTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

i cant [******]!ng believe they got out of the business. all these advancements they said they had, and TONS of money wasted on R&D. i had no idea!

I could read between the lines on everyone of their posts. It was actually kind of amusing.. I'm sure many would agree. I think the Apex 2400000 was next.
It's sad, ppl will beleive anything they read...

Good Luck to Mash

Gerald

i was being sarcastic

 

[Gerald]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

REd, that wasn't meant towards you..

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I'll give a certain person a little more time to do the right thing

but if we haven't got good news very soon - the truth is going to come out and whether they are into Vipers still or not - they do other cars and everyone will get to see whether that is somewhere they could support. This is a clear cut case - don't anyone be fooled.

as for threat of lawsuits etc - I'm overseas - they can kiss my a$$, I'll eat them alive if they want to go that route. If they want to rip people off they're gonna get called on it... clock is ticking...

 

[joe117]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Anyone know the thread where this started. I'd like to go back and look.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Joe - you have PM

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Ok - I've been getting a lot of support/enquiry by PM - here's the plan.

Mashur - a Viper owner and good guy has to this point been terribly let down - some might say ripped off big time. We're talking $7,000 to fix this guys engine from what appears to be gross negligence (I'm wording this carefully). Those responsible have not made good their promise to do the right thing....

perhaps they have just been distracted.

I think that all forum members who care about their fellow members getting shafted can help send a reminder.

I'm going to prepare a simple polite but firm email to the person who can fix this problem. The email will give them 24 hours to notify their ex customer that they will pay at least half the $7000 which was requested to fix their mistake and that they pay it to Jason Heffner so he can do the fix. Jason has put some considerable time and effort into this at no charge to help Mash and this problem is not his fault in any way shape or form. But Jason cannot fix the engine for free nor should he, that would be so unfair. Nor should the Mash have to pay at all - but he has agreed to meet Apex halfway.

I have no personal gain in this - I do not even know Mash - I just know what has been done to him and want to see him get what is right.

I propose that all those in favor of the plan send the same email I do to APEX. When they get many emails with the same demand they will not be able to ignore it.

If they do not respond in 24 hours - I'll post the truth both here and ask those with membership to arrange the same on Mustang forums etc so everyone knows what they are dealing with when they deal with that tuner. If they want to shaft a customer like this - they will pay for it one way or another. They can't touch any of us legally because we will hit with evidence so hard they will have no where to run.

All those willing to support by sending a bulk email please hit my profile, send an email to me with your email address on it and I'll forward the APEX email to you each one so we can all forward it to APEX. Of course you'll all be free to edit your own - but I'd suggest we keep it simple and clean from legal ramifications.

This may take a few days - lets support the Mash here - he is half a world away from his car and it would be great to see him looked after. Jason has been a great help and has done everything possible to work with APEX to ensure the matter could be fixed without anyone having to know what actually happened so APEX could save face while the problem was fixed.

This has not worked. So APEX have already lost face in this community, now all we can do is call them on it and in return agree not to publish the facts right across the net. If they apologize as well - they may regain a bit of respect if only under duress.

Whatever - lets see if we can get APEX to do the right thing now.

 

[RedGTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Torque, I know you're just trying to help, but why would a bunch of forum members band together and make demands of Apex when they have no idea what went on here? It appears that Apex was made aware of the evidence here, whatever it is, some time ago, and if they have failed to deal with the problem honorably then someone who knows the facts should feel free to lay the cards on the table. But trying to involve other people who clearly don't know what happened makes no sense to me.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Ronnie - that makes sense to me!

The only reason was as a last ditch effort to pressure them into doing what they indicated they would if it were their fault.

Once we post it all over the net - where's the leverage?

I understand everyone needing to know something to form an opinion so here's the bottom line...

the engine was filled with metal filings and extrude honing abraisives. not just a residue, but so much it did major damage. The engine was never cleaned after machining before assembly, certainly not key parts of it anyway. On top of that - the expensive stroker crank had been machined in error right into the very keyway itself.

The full story is obviously bigger - and APEX will not want to see it on the net - but that is why the engine had to be stripped down.

what does everyone suggest that might still pressure them to change their mind and pay up? Let's face it - they've been asked for only $3.5k out of a deal they probably charged well over $20k for.

 

[treynor]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

TM - very interesting. One question, however - who diagnosed the problem? For obvious reasons it couldn't be either Apex or Heffner, since they both have a vested interest in the problem not being of their making. Was this a local Viper tech, or some other unbiased mechanic?

I'm trying to picture enough metal detritus being accidentally left in the intake & engine to do that kind of damage, without someone noticing at any stage during the assembly process, and it's a little hard to picture. Extrude hone composite in that quantity would be fairly evident if one just looked at the intake after honing. Was this remainder left somewhere nonobvious?

 

[1TONY1]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I had dealings with Mash on a nitrous kit I purchased from him and I say.....what goes around, comes around. Sorry Torque I can't support you on this one. Here are a few quotes from Mash's e-mails to me.

"once you buy something,that's it. The deal is done."

" the sale is final, this is not a store. you bought something used and off the internet, you take the chances of something not being there"

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

"the sale is final, this is not a store. you bought something used and off the internet, you take the chances of something not being there"

Something not being there??? Misrepresenting something for sale, whether it's on the Internet or at Walmart, is fraud. The seller is responsible for an accurate representation of what he is selling. I would have gone after him.

Who's Mash?

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

As for APEX. They installed there 500 package in my car, and did some other work as well, back in 2001/02 and I was and continue to be 100% satisfied with everything. Great guys to deal with and the work was on time and top notch. I am very sorry to see them going away from Viper work. They seemed to be doing some great things with the car.

This doesn't mean to suggest that Mash isn't having a legit problem though.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Ben - I'm not sure how many people have seen the engine when it was stripped down - but I'd wager there are a few that can independently verify there was a lot of metal filings and abbraisive in there.

The thing to remember is that the engine did not blow up - the customer and Jason noticed that the car started to lose power, and each time they re-checked it got less. Jason could advise how much running on it was done by the Mash before he noticed. Anyway, rather than risk any more testing Jason decided to look inside to see if he could find anything obvious and that was when he discovered the debri in the engine - which of course then required a complete strip down.

There are pictures of everything! And why would Jason sabotage his own customers engine? The very idea makes no sense. I don't think APEX sabotaged it either - I simply think that someone there was very negligent.

Tony - I can understand what you are saying. As I said - I do not know the guy at all - know nothing about him. All I know is that he has paid a huge amount of money for an engine that was not cleaned and the material left in it was so bad - it has done major damage. Selling a used part over the net is one thing - but professional tuning shops who CLAIM to stand by their workmanship is another. This is a negligent workmanship issue and no one argues with the fact that APEX were probably not delighted their engine was being sent to someone else to get supercharged - but that does not excuse this!

Outhere - I've heard only good reports about Waynes Lethal 750, you say you are very happy, and there are probably others too. I do not think this issue is about their ability, it is about their integrity when someone there made a REALLY bad error or TWO (crank) and despite all claims on this forum they'd do what was right they have persistently closed their ears and eyes - they do not want to know.

I'd stick up for any of you guys no matter where you went - if you paid well into 5 figures for an engine job - then suffered severe engine damage only to find it was due to clearly gross negligence like this and you got told via the forum it would be sorted but privately you were ignored or told to get off.

I do not think $3500 requested against a possibly $30,000 job to fix this problem is unreasonable. APEX might as well have put sand in the oil for the damage that was done - does anyone think that's cool? That they should just be able to walk away and say - "not my problem?" - after they told us all they would do the right thing?

The supercharger broke nothing, nor caused any problem. If it had - it would be a different issue, and have been fixed by now. Neither Jason nor Doug at DLM have any problem fixing their own work as several can attest, both strive very hard to make sure there is no problem before it leaves.

This is not a warranty claim. The MASH had no warranty from APEX. They wanted to run the car for 1000 miles before they would warranty it.

Guys - by 20 miles the rings have sealed as good as they WILL EVER be. No amount of effort after that is going to make a hill of difference - the old school of careful quiet running over 500 miles+ is BS - engines treated like that make less power. The engine needs to see the redline at WOT a few times by the first 20 miles to get the best seal. Then it can be run around a bit, oil changed and dynoed in depth.

Who here would be happy to pay so much money for your toy only to have someone tell you that they want the first 1000 miles on it before they'll stand by their work?

The Mash would not agree. So they allegedly got it going, gave him the car and told him he was on his own.

This is why only 50% of repair bill is being sought. But 50% is more than fair considering this damage was either sabotage (which I don't beleive) or gross negligence.

Negligence goes beyond warranty. There is clear liability for gross negligence. Otherwise anyone could sabatage their work with impunity just because they didn't like the customer.

If a tuner will not be responsible for such clear mistakes - what do we do? Leave them in peace? They've had all the evidence they needed offered to them - they're just not interested.

What do we do now if email is a bad idea?

 

[SylvanSRT]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I agree w/ toquemonster. If the debris was in there from time of build they(Apex) would have destroyed the motor anyway. I dont think i have EVER heard of a tuner needing this(miles) much time to sort a car out!

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Surprising that no one w/ APEX will respond. I guess they are really out of the Viper bus for good.

Toquemonster - Without speaking for them, can you summarize their side? Are they blaming the SC tuner or MASH?

 

[Gerald]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

If Apex did leave metal shavings found by Jason Heffner, then I would think it's a no brainer.

What OutThere said, what is Apex's side of this story?

AND 3,500 does seem pretty cheap to make a customer happy after spending 5 figures for an engine..

G

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Seems VERY cheap. They must have a very good reason for not settling for such a small amount.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Seems VERY cheap. They must have a very good reason for not settling for such a small amount.

I've asked them - lets see what they say.

Reading between the lines - things were probably not sweet between customer and APEX by the time it left - and who knows what was said between parties in private.... fact is - there's an engine with bad scouring from abraisives and pictures of the material still lose in engine parts and intake - maybe Jason will be willing to post them??

I do know Jason worked really hard to work something out with Bill at APex. He tried to get hold of them to discuss the whole situation as soon as the problem was identified. Bill could not be contacted nor return messages. Somebody posted something and suddenly Bill phones Jason.

Jason tells everything that happened and what was found - Bill asks Jason to promise not to say anything bad on the forum then goes and posts himself that everything is under control and reassures everyone "the head and cam are not broken" as though anyone said they were!

Since then there have been emails and phone calls but no more than a set of rings offered.

It is not possible that a centrigugal supercharger system could cause this problem, besides which the honing abraisive was traced back to fragments still left in the inner intake - which would have been out of sight during the SC installation.

My understanding is that APEX are saying "we didn't do it, we weren't there etc" Mash is not sending them the engine back to APEX either understandedly because he does not believe that and was very unhappy with the way their deal ended.

Lets see what Apex say - if they reply to me at all. But re the rumors - ask yourselves this....

engine comes back from Apex, is given a basic dyno tune and turns some quite acceptable numbers. Customer reasonably happy. Jason happy enough to take on the job and complete installation. Run up on boost - and runs some really strong numbers - everyone happy - even Apex gets on forum and grabs some limelight. Sounds like a happy ending to that point...

After that there is no motive for sabatage. Too many witnesses, too little interest shown by APEX to verify anything - if it had been a role reversal - Jason would have been on the next flight out as would have Doug or John or any other tuner whose reputation was suddenly at stake... the lack of action tells you a lot. They didn't care.

 

[King GTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Ronnie - that makes sense to me!

The only reason was as a last ditch effort to pressure them into doing what they indicated they would if it were their fault.

Once we post it all over the net - where's the leverage?

I understand everyone needing to know something to form an opinion so here's the bottom line...

the engine was filled with metal filings and extrude honing abraisives. not just a residue, but so much it did major damage. The engine was never cleaned after machining before assembly, certainly not key parts of it anyway. On top of that - the expensive stroker crank had been machined in error right into the very keyway itself.

The full story is obviously bigger - and APEX will not want to see it on the net - but that is why the engine had to be stripped down.

what does everyone suggest that might still pressure them to change their mind and pay up? Let's face it - they've been asked for only $3.5k out of a deal they probably charged well over $20k for.

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[Vic]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I've got a feeling that Apex is only legally liable for the repairs if Mash brings the engine back to them to do the work. If Mash doesn't want Apex to do the work, I think the law would back Apex, since they don't have to pay anybody else to fix what might have been a latent defect. Since Mash won't bring it back to Apex, then Apex is probably conveniently walking away from it. (Not good, but possibly legal)

I'm not a lawyer, just guessing.

Guys - by 20 miles the rings have sealed as good as they WILL EVER be. No amount of effort after that is going to make a hill of difference - the old school of careful quiet running over 500 miles+ is BS - engines treated like that make less power. The engine needs to see the redline at WOT a few times by the first 20 miles to get the best seal.

What is the reason, scientifically speaking, for what you say? I'm not trying to stump you, becasue I know you well enough to beleive that you know what you are saying, and you know why you say it. But can you put it in words that relate to science, instead of just what you beleive? I would really, REALLY like to know more about that.

TM, if you can't explain it, no one can! Take the floor, my engine guru!

ps. The only thing I have heard in regards to this, is that if you don't go to redline once in a while, the top of the cylinder develops a ridge, where the rings stop going up, at top dead center. This ridge can upset the seal of the rings, if redline is only hit rarely. Running at redline some helps "stretch" the internals, and prevent this ridge from forming.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Hey Vic - re break in - the lnk on this thread covers it better than I could....

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB17&Number=329023&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

I learned something on the link in there too - but we always were taught that to get the best power - you broke in the cam - then gave it a base tune with mineral oil - took it out, didn't lug it, but went thru the gears 3-4 times each time pushing it a bit harder and letting the rpms go higher until final run was WOT to redline. That was break in. A few of those changing speeds, and alternating light throttle to letting it rip - all done

It makes logical sense when you think about it - what race engine gets nursed? They get run hard same day as finished after cam break in and a few up and down rpm band on dyno. If racers could get more power by dialing the engine in gently over 24 hours on dyno - they'd do it to get an edge - but it just does not work. Read the link you'll see that faster break in also helps reliability too! It's very unpolitically correct I know

 

[treynor]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

> And why would Jason sabotage his own customers engine?

I rather doubt that any of the parties involved would actively sabotage their own work. My question was simply to check that the teardown was done by a third party. There are a few different ways material could get into the engine -- it could be sucked in during a no-air-filter tuning run; it could be something which broke off of a supercharger impeller (or which was left inside the S/C accidentally); it could be the result of not properly cleaning an engine/intake after modification; etc. If it were my car, I certainly would want the diagnosis done by someone with no stake in the outcome.

One interesting thought would be to have a metallurgical analysis done on the metal fragments found inside. That's straightforward enough, and the composition would tell volumes about the probable source of the material, and thus culpability.

 

[Vic]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Hey Vic - re break in - the lnk on this thread covers it better than I could....

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB17&Number=329023&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Read the link you'll see that faster break in also helps reliability too! It's very unpolitically correct I know

Fascinating! Absolutely riveting, couldn't stop reading it, all the way through. About the 20 miles first oil change, I gotta say that he attributes this to the fact that on a motorcycle, the gears chew up soft metals released by break in, and these resultant finer particles flow through the filter, and "aluminize" the engine, taking up oil clearance space. But on a car engine, the gears are separate, so this phenomenon is not as pronounced.

But it still sounds like a good thing to do, if just for the fact that most ring seal happens very early.

He didn't mention anything about harmonics. Engine parts don't just rotate, they also have minute angular perterbations, caused by subtle imbalances, such as the cyclical pulses on the crank, as each piston fires sequentially, and this makes the crank sort of "dance" in the mains, as it also rotates. The cam has the same unequal load forces acting upon it. This dance, if you will, causes sublte wear patterns that are best established slowly.

I just made that up, not bad, huh? Just thought I'd try and muddy up the waters a bit! Whats life without a little mystery, ya know?