Mobil1 10w30 Used Oil Analysis

[adg44]

This should be fun

Here are the results from my UOA on M1 10w30 that was used in my Viper for roughly two years, but only 2500 miles. The previous owner figured an extended drain would be OK since the car was not driven very much. The main area that this affected was the TAN (Total Acid Number) , as the TBN (Total Base Number) was still OK (dropped from roughly 10-12 new), but unable to combat the acidity in the oil.

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Iron - not bad at all considering the extended drain and that the engine is still breaking in. Lead - slightly high. Chromium/Nickel - signs of varnish. Aluminum - piston wear, high. Zinc/Phosphate - good, shows that this M1 was from when it was still made with Group IV bases and higher. Flash point - bad. Fuel Dilution - high, cause of low flash point.

This wasn't too bad given the extended drain, but also this M1 is from circa-2005 when it was still a full synthetic. The additive package in the Valvoline SynPower should clean up the varnish quite well, and I am going to change the oil in 3,000 miles (6,000 on engine), and sample it and see how it compares to the M1.

- Anthony

 

[Steve-Indy]

Interesting...Thanks !!

Can you drscribe your driving pattern?? Short trips, long trips, both, etc.??

I personally have seen MUCH higher TBN's on Vipers ...one friend in particular that drove 800 miles over a 2 year period on Mobil 1 10W-30 and TBN came back closer to 11....which is the general range our low mileage Vipers see on annual oil changes. However, Vipers that I reference are driven on full warm-up highway trips only...i.e. each time engine started, there is a minimum of 25 miles of driving on non-congested freeway.

Interesting stuff.

 

[08Venom]

I've never seen a oil analysis before.Scientifically,judging from the results,both the lead/chromium/nickel levels are v.low relative to the watch/warning numbers.There are no reference standards included,how are the watch/warning levels determined?.Aluminum levels are not excessively high,especially if you change your oil every 3000 miles.Again,for the zinc/phosphate levels there is no reference standard.Just thinking about the dilution/flash point,I'm no mechanic but the dilution level is just 65% of which a watch is indicated.If you change at 3000 miles it shouldn't be a worry.Additionally,I was wondering,could the dilution level be what it is as a result of not running your engine long enough to heat up the oil to the point where it would remove the extra fuel?The flash point number is high,but is this a result of the dilution,or just something inherent to synthetic motor oils? I always thought that by running your engine at temp for at least 1/2 -1 hr the fuel in the oil would volitalize off.Could the total acid number be the result of the infrequent engine use or accumulation of byproducts from your vehicle?Look forward to the Valvoline analysis.

 

[TedK]

..........

 

[adg44]

Hey Ted - do you mind removing your post? The image is huge, and I don't want people to be confused when they see another report in here that isn't from a Viper. Thanks.

Furthermore, I used to use Blackstone, but the analysis isn't nearly as complete as the one that Terry gives you. I have a 10 minute long MP3 audio interpretation of the results explaining everything to me. I can't post that though as it is proprietary.

- Anthony

 

[TedK]

No problem.

 

[adg44]

Interesting...Thanks !!

Can you drscribe your driving pattern?? Short trips, long trips, both, etc.??

The previous owner put 2500 miles on the car in 2.5 years, so it did sit a lot. He would take it out and drive it usually at least once a week, but I don't know the length of the trips. That's why I'm curious to see the Valvoline report, as I have put 1200 miles on the car in just over a month.

I personally have seen MUCH higher TBN's on Vipers ...one friend in particular that drove 800 miles over a 2 year period on Mobil 1 10W-30 and TBN came back closer to 11....which is the general range our low mileage Vipers see on annual oil changes. However, Vipers that I reference are driven on full warm-up highway trips only...i.e. each time engine started, there is a minimum of 25 miles of driving on non-congested freeway.

Interesting stuff.

Don't worry too much about TBN, that tends to get over simplified on a lot of message boards. Also, depending on who analyzes it you will get different results. The ****** TBN should be between 10-12, so getting 11 on used oil would be pretty odd...

- Anthony

 

[adg44]

I've never seen a oil analysis before.Scientifically,judging from the results,both the lead/chromium/nickel levels are v.low relative to the watch/warning numbers.There are no reference standards included,how are the watch/warning levels determined?

Terry gives you an audio interpretation and explains each of the numbers, and on the PDF there are notes (which I had to remove before I posted the image). The watch/warning levels are generic across the board, they aren't tailored to each motor. What you really pay for is his interpretation, not the results, as just sampling the oil isn't expensive (and thus why Blackstone only charges ~$30 for a report with TBN).

Aluminum levels are not excessively high,especially if you change your oil every 3000 miles.Again,for the zinc/phosphate levels there is no reference standard.

It's not high compared to the watch/warning, but it is definitely elevated. The next one should be lower since the engine is finishing its break in.

Just thinking about the dilution/flash point,I'm no mechanic but the dilution level is just 65% of which a watch is indicated.If you change at 3000 miles it shouldn't be a worry.Additionally,I was wondering,could the dilution level be what it is as a result of not running your engine long enough to heat up the oil to the point where it would remove the extra fuel?The flash point number is high,but is this a result of the dilution,or just something inherent to synthetic motor oils? I always thought that by running your engine at temp for at least 1/2 -1 hr the fuel in the oil would volitalize off.Could the total acid number be the result of the infrequent engine use or accumulation of byproducts from your vehicle?Look forward to the Valvoline analysis.

The fuel dilution and low flash point is because the oil got very acidic from the long drain interval. Synthetic fluids have a higher flash point than dino-based fluids. This also seems to be an area where the Mobil1 did not stand up well. I had driven the car about 20 some miles before I changed the oil, and it was at operating temperature when it was done, so there shouldn't be any trace fuel in the oil.

- Anthony

 

[08Venom]

Thanks for explaining.I also realize that I mistakenly typed high flash point when I meant to type the reduction in flash point temperature.

Trevor

 

[TAXIMAN1]

very interesting... I'd be curious to see more examples, from cars with similar mileage, not so much the age.. To see if these levels are high, or just normal for a Viper... Neat stuff.

I have a VERY low mileage 2006... But the oil has been changed 3 times already, just to keep things fresh..

 

[adg44]

very interesting... I'd be curious to see more examples, from cars with similar mileage, not so much the age.. To see if these levels are high, or just normal for a Viper... Neat stuff.

I would, too. Then we can see which oils actually work well in this engine, not which company Chrysler has an agreement with for oils.

I'll try and put 2k miles on my car in the next 2 months so that I can change out the oil and get it sampled.

- Anthony

 

[Revtune]

Just curious if anybody has tried Amsoil. I have used it in my Ram with the cast iron V10, my Acura TL, 1969 Charger, and my motorcycles with great success on extended drain intervals, even exceeding one year. I can tell you that in my truck V10 it was the only oil I tried (including Mobil 1 and Redline) that did not loose any oil pressure when running in the Las Vegas heat at 118 degrees ambient in 4WD climbing hills and crawling through valleys.

Don't have a viper to try it in yet, but plan to next year.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

I have run Amsoil in most of my vehicles since 1976. Nothing but excellent results. The 2000 Viper has had nothing but Amsoil front to back pretty much since new. I use oil analysis on every change. It always comes back fine for oil and gear lubes.....meaning there was more life in the oil. I have varied the change intervals from 5,000 to 10,000 miles and/or once a year. This includes track time. This year, I will change the oil next month at 9,000 miles (we got a one month late start this year --bad summer) and one year. Heck, on street vehicles, I have gone 20,000 miles a year (many times) with analysis. No problems. My 2001 GMC truck has 144K on the clock and uses a quart every 6000 - 7000 miles. The Viper above uses a quart every 4,000-5,000 miles with 82K miles on the clock.

I can add to this thread with the modified car we picked up in 8/06. I got the complete records for the car at purchase. The oil (Mobil 1)/ gear lubes (OEM recommended) had been last changed 4/7/04 at 8,000 miles on the clock. All of the previous owner's miles were basically Detroit suburban miles. No road miles. We bought the car at 12,847 miles. I wanted to switch everything to Amsoil before storage and did so at 14,100 miles on 9/11/06. I sent all 3 lubes in for analysis for my own base line. They all came back perfectly good for further use. There was 6,038 miles on the samples. We only put 1500 miles on the car this year and I am not changing it out before storage.

The only issue I have with Blackstone is that they use 'universal' averages. Most of the Vipers using them change their oil way more often than necessary, therefore the 'universal' average numbers are based on the lower mileage. 1500 miles for example. It only stands to reason that if you send a sample in with 6000 or more miles, the numbers will come back with 4 times as much contaminants, or less additive than 1500 mile oil. That doesn't necessarily mean the oil is used up. The TBN number kind of tell the tale of how much additive is left. I think it can be as low as 4? and still be OK. Tom would have to chip in. He's the guy for this stuff. Blackstone charges extra for the TBN number. Others don't. I think you should know your TBN number if you're using analysis.

Steve

 

[adg44]

The only issue I have with Blackstone is that they use 'universal' averages. Most of the Vipers using them change their oil way more often than necessary, therefore the 'universal' average numbers are based on the lower mileage.

All places use "universal averages", that's why you send the sample to Terry and he interprets it for you and tells you exactly what's going on.

The TBN number kind of tell the tale of how much additive is left. I think it can be as low as 4? and still be OK. Tom would have to chip in. He's the guy for this stuff. Blackstone charges extra for the TBN number. Others don't. I think you should know your TBN number if you're using analysis.

Steve

Don't over simplify TBN, which a lot of people do on message boards. The 'Total Base Number' is the indicator of the additive left in the oil, but as you see, mine had a TBN of almost 6, yet it did nothing to combat the acidity of the oil.

- Anthony

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

All places use "universal averages", that's why you send the sample to Terry and he interprets it for you and tells you exactly what's going on.

Not true. The Viper engine is a big block gas engine...not much different from any other. There are not different universal averages for every different gas engine. It's much more important to track your own experience than to worry about a so called universal unrealistic Viper average of 1500 miles. Diesels are a different animal.



Don't over simplify TBN, which a lot of people do on message boards. The 'Total Base Number' is the indicator of the additive left in the oil, but as you see, mine had a TBN of almost 6, yet it did nothing to combat the acidity of the oil.

I didn't oversimplify it. I simply said you should get the TBN done in the analysis to see what additives are left. Blackstone charges an extra $10 to know this information. ... at least the last time I used them they did. From what I can find, TAN is not a test ususally done on motor oil. It's more for gear oil. Neither Blackstone or the company I use tests motor oil for TAN as part of a standard oil analysis. That's because all engines produce acid as a by product. It will always be present as a product of combustion. Your 4.36 may be a little high, but is not necessarily exteme...and with a 5.9 TBN, you still had additive left to help neutralize the acid. Closed gear systems are monitored for TAN because they don't normally have additives to combat the acid.

Steve

 

[adg44]

Not true. The Viper engine is a big block gas engine...not much different from any other. There are not different universal averages for every different gas engine. It's much more important to track your own experience than to worry about a so called universal unrealistic Viper average of 1500 miles. Diesels are a different animal.

That's not what I said. If you read what I wrote again, I said they all use "universal averages" when analyzing oil. And then Terry reads the data and based on your application tells you what is high or not. That is why his analysis costs $60 compared to $30 for Blackstone with TBN.

I didn't oversimplify it. I simply said you should get the TBN done in the analysis to see what additives are left. Blackstone charges an extra $10 to know this information. ... at least the last time I used them they did. From what I can find, TAN is not a test ususally done on motor oil. It's more for gear oil. Neither Blackstone or the company I use tests motor oil for TAN as part of a standard oil analysis. That's because all engines produce acid as a by product. It will always be present as a product of combustion. Your 4.36 may be a little high, but is not necessarily exteme...and with a 5.9 TBN, you still had additive left to help neutralize the acid. Closed gear systems are monitored for TAN because they don't normally have additives to combat the acid.

I agree, you should do a TBN test, especially if you want an extended drain interval. However, I had plenty of TBN left and it wasn't neutralizing the acid. TAN is important, and mine was very high. That is what I meant by over-simplifying TBN, as you said there was enough to neutralize the acid, which it wasn't doing.

- Anthony

 

[Steve-Indy]

In my opinion...a TBN of 6 is not "plenty of TBN"...though it IS much better that a TBN of 3 that we tested on UOA of a late model Mercedes when the owner took the car in for a routine oil change based on his on board diagnostics (24 months and 13,000 miles of driving). The whole UOA showed trash floating around in his engine....and, I'm SURE Mercedes will be glad to sell him another car SOON with their "recommended" oil changes !!!

 

[adg44]

In my opinion...a TBN of 6 is not "plenty of TBN"...though it IS much better that a TBN of 3 that we tested on UOA of a late model Mercedes when the owner took the car in for a routine oil change based on his on board diagnostics (24 months and 13,000 miles of driving). The whole UOA showed trash floating around in his engine....and, I'm SURE Mercedes will be glad to sell him another car SOON with their "recommended" oil changes !!!

A TBN of 6 is plenty. Many new oils only have a TBN of 8-9. But as I am saying, TBN is over-rated as it didn't neutralize the acid in the oil. If you just look at TBN, you'd think I could run this oil for a longer duration, but I couldn't because the acidity was way too high.

We'll see how the Valvoline stands up after 3,000 miles and then determine how long I can go on oil changes. I have a feeling 5-6k isn't out of the picture.

- Anthony

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

That's not what I said. If you read what I wrote again, I said they all use "universal averages" when analyzing oil. And then Terry reads the data and based on your application tells you what is high or not. That is why his analysis costs $60 compared to $30 for Blackstone with TBN.

If you mean universal averages, as in most all gas engines, i would agree. I don't believe the Viper engine is singled out (like Blackstone does). I can get the same info from the lab I use...for $15 bucks + shipping...no TAN. Except for using the lower mile average, Blackstone also does a good job of explaining their analysis. My guess is any lab would be more than happy to talk to you about your specific application. I have talked to mine several times over the years. $60 is way up there for a single 'reading'

I also question sending a single sample and the lab being able to tell you what your numbers should be for your application. A single sample is merely a base line to start from (unless that sample shows some glaring deficiencies). When you're talking parts per million, normal for one vehicle may be vastly different from another as pertains to wear materials.




I agree, you should do a TBN test, especially if you want an extended drain interval. However, I had plenty of TBN left and it wasn't neutralizing the acid. TAN is important, and mine was very high. That is what I meant by over-simplifying TBN, as you said there was enough to neutralize the acid, which it wasn't doing.

I am curious as to why some oil labs do not include the TAN in their basic analysis? I don't know the answer. I didn't say the TBN would neutralize the acid completely. I said with a 5.9, you had enough additive left to help that process along. I'm not sure that additives ever completely neutralize the acid by products of combustion. In other words, there will always be an acid number present. What the acceptable level is I don't know. I've heard 3% for closed gear box systems is a take notice number. We need to get Tom in here to educate us.

Steve

 

[adg44]

If you mean universal averages, as in most all gas engines, i would agree. I don't believe the Viper engine is singled out (like Blackstone does). I can get the same info from the lab I use...for $15 bucks + shipping...no TAN. Except for using the lower mile average, Blackstone also does a good job of explaining their analysis. My guess is any lab would be more than happy to talk to you about your specific application. I have talked to mine several times over the years. $60 is way up there for a single 'reading'

I also question sending a single sample and the lab being able to tell you what your numbers should be for your application. A single sample is merely a base line to start from (unless that sample shows some glaring deficiencies). When you're talking parts per million, normal for one vehicle may be vastly different from another as pertains to wear materials.

It's all about how much you want to know. I have used blackstone before many times, the little blurbs they give you are decent. Terry sends me a 10 minute long mp3 audio interpretation of the oil. He knows the engines and he knows where the levels need to be. That is why I said don't pay much attention to the universal averages listed.

I am curious as to why some oil labs do not include the TAN in their basic analysis? I don't know the answer. I didn't say the TBN would neutralize the acid completely. I said with a 5.9, you had enough additive left to help that process along. I'm not sure that additives ever completely neutralize the acid by products of combustion. In other words, there will always be an acid number present. What the acceptable level is I don't know. I've heard 3% for closed gear box systems is a take notice number. We need to get Tom in here to educate us.

Steve

It all comes down to cost. That is also a reason why this oil analysis is $60 compared to $30. Yes, there will always be an acid number present because of combustion blow by, but the TBN didn't neutralize the acid at all in this case. It also depends on the additive package used in the oil. It's one of the reasons why I'm using Valvoline 10w30 in my engine currently.

- Anthony