Photos of Carbon Fiber Work. Need Your Openion.

[BlackViperGTS]

What does everyone think of this carbon fiber quality? I've ordered carbon fiber before and its always come with a smooth glossy finish and this is like an orange peel finish. In addition to that the sides look like they may not have gotten enough epoxy on it so I'm afraid to try and wed sand it as there may not be enough clear coat or epoxy to even it out before it gets into the fiber. What do you all think? Is it fixable? Is this normal when not completely finished? I plan on putting on a 3M clear bra will that make all this go away?

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[RobZilla]

I agree that finish makes it look cheap... send it back.

 

[BlackViperGTS]

Yeah I happened to just spend $550 on it so I'm a bit upset at Vipair right now. I'm waiting for a response about his work but anything short of a full refund including shipping or sending me out one that is of quality is completely unacceptable.

I was referred to GTS-R 001 by these forums as well.

 

[RobZilla]

Go with option two. I have heard good things about him as well.

 

[Alexarz]

With all that orange peel, are you sure that those parts are not for a corvette??

 

[jamie furman]

Look at the factory carbon fibre wing on the ACR and then make your own opinion. To me that looks like garbage.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

yeah, that looks like the epoxy was not mixed properly (not enough hardener)
then they couldn't get it smooth so they just clear-coated over it

 

[Chrissss]

The carbon fiber products I have ordered from Steve looked nothing like that. He will get back to and you and certainly make it right.

 

[2000_Black_RT10]

I work at probably one of the most respected automotive composites company in the supercar / race car industry, so.. don't mind me being critical.

It looks like 2x2, typically 2x2 is not the best for finish. For those that aren't aware, in composites you can have 2x2, 4x4, unidirectional, etc.. (and different thicknesses) Yet. the issue you see with your parts is that it may not be a curing issue. Typically you can build up any porous surface with clearcoat after the parts come out of the autoclave and sand it afterwards for a smooth finish. That's what I would suggest for your parts. Many don't know that there is clearcoat specifically formulated to survive in UV rays. Most carbon parts require clearcoat to creat smooth finish. I think the parts are ok, but they lack clearcoat. Prepreg carbon does not necessarily result in a smooth finish. The best finish is unidirectional yet you don't get that cosmetic weave appearance. Mayn are going with 4x4 (4 weaves under 4 weaves) to exagerate the weave appearance, again your parts are 2x2 (2 weaves under 2 weaves). Any weaving can create a rough finish, just think about it, weaving material and expecting a flat surface?? So, all I can suggest is to have them build up some clearcoat and wet sand it to a smooth finish.

Many don't realize that the quality in a carbon part is the lay-up of the weaves, the directional pattern, the weaves, etc.. to create a structural part. The last thing on the on the list is a surface finish, and to gain a quality surface finish you need unidirectional (i.e. for carbon satellite dishes, OEM panels, etc..), but it looks boring without a weave texture if clearcoated.

If you want to see where I work, see Multimatic Inc. , and a recent example, scroll down on our corp website and look for the Aston Martin One-77 (see the carbon fibre chassis pics) for more images. That's quality carbon fibre at it's finest.

 

[GTS-R 001]

The Carbon Fiber cowls are PRE - **** carbon fiber, different from the hoods and other items we sell. They are inherently (and people that know carbon fiber) the strongest and lightest but they are not covered with a thick coat of resin or gel coat.

I offered a full refund and a refund of shipping costs the minute BLACK GTS mentioned he was not happy.

He has now demanded that I refund his money BEFORE he ships the part back.

Unfortunately, that is not how business works, you send the part back you get the refund. Unfortunately I have been burned by doing the opposite in the past, so I will not refund in advance no matter what the threat or the pro active poor quality piece post.

If you were to show that cowl to a race car driver he would LOVE it, it weighs maybe 2 or 3 oz at most. I now make all my parts with lots of resin and gel coat on them as that is the expectation of the consumer these days, I had 2 of these cowls in my garage and offered them, my mistake.

Here is the PM's from today

BLACK GTS
Not happy at all. The product looks absolutely unfinished and nothing like your photos. No sheen, needs to possibly be wet sanded if that's even possible because the sides don't have enough resin it appears to handle wet sanding without going into the fibers.

ME
Its exactly like mine on my car, it is made form Preprig carbon fiber, the lightest and strongest carbon fiber out there, it is a real race piece. The one on my car is a little yellowed after being in the sun for 6 years. If it is not what you thought you can return it and I will refund your money. Usually if people get the CF that is all resin and backed by black fiberglass they don't like it.

Sorry for the mis understanding, just send it back ground and I will refund you.

Thanks

Steve

BLACK GTS
it's not anything like the pictures on your site of other carbon fiber pieces--- you couldn't get a shine off this piece if you tried. I'm absolutely not satisfied because it has no nice finish on it at all. I'd either like a piece with the same finish as your carbon fiber that your displaying on your website or a refund of both shipping to and from as well as the cost of the part.

ME
I said I would refund you, send it back and it will be done, send me the fed ex ground charge receipt and I will cover that as well.

The one on my car is way flatter than the one you got which was pretty damn shinny when I sent it to you. But I cannot argue and there is no point right now if you are unhappy then send it back. The one on my car was quickly wiped with quick detailer (mothers) before the pic was taken.

Thanks

Steve

BLACK GTS
just refund me now and I'll mail it back when I get a refund. The people on the site agree that the workmanship was horrible. I'm not about to send you back the part along with my money. I'd like my money back now please.

MY RESPONSE, not by PM but HERE,
Like I iterated earlier, please send the part back and I will refund your money.
It is our company policy that all returns need to be received before the refund is given as in the past we have had parts not returned. This is no slight on you, it is just our policy and it is the policy of most businesses.

Again, sorry that this is not what you were expecting but it is exactly like the one I posted the picture of and it is exactly like the one on my car. I can do no better than that.

PS. The piece does have quite a few views where it looks way better than the pics you posted as well. The nature of the pre-**** carbon is that there is exactly the amount of resin needed to create optimal strength and no more, part of the inherent properties in this type of carbon fiber is that you can see and feel the weave of the carbon fiber.

 

[HHI VIPER]

The Carbon Fiber cowls are PRE - **** carbon fiber, different from the hoods and other items we sell. They are inherently (and people thta know carbon fiber) the strongest and lightest but they are not covered with a thick coat of resin or gel coat.

I offered a full refund and a refund of shipping costs the minute BLACK GTS mentioned he was not happy.

He has now demanded that I refund his money BEFORE he ships the part back.

Unfortunately, that is not how business works, you send the part back you get the refund. Unfortunately I have been burned by doing the opposite in the past, so I will not refund in advance no matter hwat the threat or the pro active poor qulaity piece post.

If you were to show that cowl to a race car driver he would LOVE it, it weighs maybe 2 or 3 oz at most. I now make all my parts with lots of resin and gel coat on them as that is the expectation of the consumer these days, I had 2 of these cowls in my garage and offered them, my mistake.

Here is the PM's from today

BLACK GTS
Not happy at all. The product looks absolutely unfinished and nothing like your photos. No sheen, needs to possibly be wet sanded if that's even possible because the sides don't have enough resin it appears to handle wet sanding without going into the fibers.

ME
Its exactly like mine on my car, it is made form Preprig carbon fiber, the lightest and strongest carbon fiber out there, it is a real race piece. The one on my car is a little yellowed after being in the sun for 6 years. If it is not what you thought you can return it and I will refund your money. Usually if people get the CF that is all resin and backed by black fiberglass they don't like it.

Sorry for the mis understanding, just send it back ground and I will refund you.

Thanks

Steve

BLACK GTS
it's not anything like the pictures on your site of other carbon fiber pieces--- you couldn't get a shine off this piece if you tried. I'm absolutely not satisfied because it has no nice finish on it at all. I'd either like a piece with the same finish as your carbon fiber that your displaying on your website or a refund of both shipping to and from as well as the cost of the part.

ME
I said I would refund you, send it back and it will be done, send me the fed ex ground charge receipt and I will cover that as well.

The one on my car is way flatter than the one you got which was pretty damn shinny when I sent it to you. But I cannot argue and there is no point right now if you are unhappy then send it back. The one on my car was quickly wiped with quick detailer (mothers) before the pic was taken.

Thanks

Steve

BLACK GTS
just refund me now and I'll mail it back when I get a refund. The people on the site agree that the workmanship was horrible. I'm not about to send you back the part along with my money. I'd like my money back now please.

MY RESPONSE, not by PM but HERE,
Like I iterated earlier, please send the part back and I will refund your money.
It is our company policy that all returns need to be received before the refund is given as in the past we have had parts not returned. This is no slight on you, it is just our policy and it is the policy of most businesses.

Again, sorry that this is not what you were expecting but it is exactly like the one I posted the picture of and it is exactly like the one on my car. I can do no better than that.

PS. The piece does have quite a few views where it looks way better than the pics you posted as well. The nature of the pre-**** carbon is that there is exactly the amount of resin needed to create optimal strength and no more, part of the inherent properties in this type of carbon fiber is that you can see and feel the weave of the carbon fiber.

Can't ask for more than this! Sounds fair IMO!

 

[GTS-R 001]

I work at probably one of the most respected automotive composites company in the supercar / race car industry, so.. don't mind me being critical.

It looks like 2x2, typically 2x2 is not the best for finish. For those that aren't aware, in composites you can have 2x2, 4x4, unidirectional, etc.. (and different thicknesses) Yet. the issue you see with your parts is that it may not be a curing issue. Typically you can build up any porous surface with clearcoat after the parts come out of the autoclave and sand it afterwards for a smooth finish. That's what I would suggest for your parts. Many don't know that there is clearcoat specifically formulated to survive in UV rays. Most carbon parts require clearcoat to creat smooth finish. I think the parts are ok, but they lack clearcoat. Prepreg carbon does not necessarily result in a smooth finish. The best finish is unidirectional yet you don't get that cosmetic weave appearance. Mayn are going with 4x4 (4 weaves under 4 weaves) to exagerate the weave appearance, again your parts are 2x2 (2 weaves under 2 weaves). Any weaving can create a rough finish, just think about it, weaving material and expecting a flat surface?? So, all I can suggest is to have them build up some clearcoat and wet sand it to a smooth finish.

Many don't realize that the quality in a carbon part is the lay-up of the weaves, the directional pattern, the weaves, etc.. to create a structural part. The last thing on the on the list is a surface finish, and to gain a quality surface finish you need unidirectional (i.e. for carbon satellite dishes, OEM panels, etc..), but it looks boring without a weave texture if clearcoated.

If you want to see where I work, see Multimatic Inc. , and a recent example, scroll down on our corp website and look for the Aston Martin One-77 (see the carbon fibre chassis pics) for more images. That's quality carbon fibre at it's finest.

Good Post,
For all my hoods and other parts I have quite a bit of resin and clear on the top for that shiny look. Since the pics I had posted of the cowls were of the pre-**** version that is what I shipped as that is what I perceived was ordered.

 

[Camfab]

Seems fair enough to me, ship it back. You've been here for 6 posts and he's been here for 7 yrs! He's not going to sc^^w you.

 

[2000_Black_RT10]

Good Post,
For all my hoods and other parts I have quite a bit of resin and clear on the top for that shiny look. Since the pics I had posted of the cowls were of the pre-**** version that is what I shipped as that is what I perceived was ordered.

That's cool, I'm just lingering tonight. btw.. it's pre pregnated or in short words: pre preg not pre ****. This is carbon fibre material with resin impregnated. I know you know this, I'm just babbling for anyone else. In an autoclave while the carbon fibre material is cooked under vacuum and heat, the pre pregnated resin oozes out fo the material, yet in some cases this oozed out resin will not fullfil a smooth exterior finish, this is why a secondary clearcoat process is required. Typicaly carbon fibre parts are made up of multiple layers. The coarse material is used on ths inside (opposite side of the exposed exterior surface no need for a smooth finish), and to get the best exterior finish a thin layer of carbon fibre is layed in the mold first. So there may be thick 2x2 underneath, than a thinner layer of 2x2 on top. If any carbon fibre panels are going to be painted, typically uni-directional is the first layer in the mold, then the mold is baged and vacuumed down to be sure the thin layer is tight to the mold surface, and then the next layers stack up, the thicker structural layers and then it is tossed into the autoclave for a cure which can take up to 12 hours depending on the size. The autoclave measures vacuum and temperatuire and controls cool down to avoid warpage. Laying up a carbon fibre part is a science, quite a bit of analysis to determine the best distributed material and weave directions considering the stress on the part, especially for a structural part.
Best regards,
Mike

 

[2000_Black_RT10]

btw GTS-R 001 for a bit of fun trivia science in the carbon fibre world.. carbon fibre weaves are layed up to accommodate structural directional stress. Ferrari was busted in F1. They layed up a wing, so as it is measured as the car was stationary / static, the wing met the measurement regulations., looked good, no problems. The trick they used was laying up the weaves so under wing force at high speed the wing would flex and twist and then provide more downforce, in other words the wing tilted down on the leading edge and hence the wing created more downforce. So depending how you lay up a part (multiple layers), you can control how it can flex under force.

 

[Russ M]

So even though he offered you a full refund+shipping(unheard of) you still come on here to bad mouth him?

Vipair and I don't have any love lost between us, but you are being completely unreasonable and attempting to drag his name through the dirt even though he is willing to make you happy at his own expense.

 

[2000_Black_RT10]

With all that orange peel, are you sure that those parts are not for a corvette??

Sorry to say but GM uses a better clearcoat than Dodge on their exposed carbon fibre parts. Corvette ZR1 exposed carbon parts (the clearcoat) can withstand more hours of UV *********** than the Viper / ACR parts. Clearcoat is a costly item (type), manufacturing cars is a balance of performance and durability. The test (UV high exposure) numbers were something like 7000 hours for the Corvette and 5000 for the ACR Viper clearcoat.

 

[BlackViperGTS]

So even though he offered you a full refund+shipping(unheard of) you still come on here to bad mouth him?

Vipair and I don't have any love lost between us, but you are being completely unreasonable and attempting to drag his name through the dirt even though he is willing to make you happy at his own expense.

Unreasonable? I think not. The product is some of the worst work I've ever seen. And he offers a full refund which is NOT unheard of when the product does not some as described or as it looks in the add presented. He can either refund my money and I'll ship him back the cowl, or I'll just post pictures of his work on every car website I know and let people judge for themselves whether or not they want to use Vipair for carbon fiber work. In carbon fiber, the materials are nearly nothing when it comes to cost--it's all workmanship. It's why people recommend others for carbon fiber work. Word of mouth is the only way carbon fiber people get business. If you'd like to see pictures of what he claims is the same work then here you go.

Carbon Fiber Cowl

It looks NOTHING like the cowl I got NOTHING. I'm not about to send back the cowl so he has my money AND the cowl. I can make this one work if I have to with many hours of sanding and clear coating---but if I have to I will drag his name through the mud as you say.

 

[J&R3xV10]

2000 Black RT10, its great to get such great information from such a knowledgeable source. Very cool info that I had no idea about. Carbon fiber has always been a bit of a mystery to me, thanks for posting

And Black Viper GTS...... take the deal and be VERY happy that you have the opportunity to deal with such an upstanding businessman. You would be hard pressed to find this sort of response from other companies. It makes sense that this may not be exactly what you were looking for in the product that you ordered but the man is making things right.

 

[RobZilla]

I am a complete amatuer at understanding carbon fiber. Now after reading the posts on this thread I can agree that the pictured pieces above may not be "show" quality. Then again, the manufacturer/seller admits that these are performance designed parts.

Either way, if you are unhappy you have been given a truly reasonable offer to rectify the lack of satisfaction.

 

[J&R3xV10]

hmmmm you said you paid $550 and the website shows it listed for $649....... sounds like you got a good deal. and the pictures on the site aren't close enough to show comparative detail to the pictures you posted. The MAN CAN BE TRUSTED send him the part and stop complaining.

 

[RobZilla]

It looks NOTHING like the cowl I got NOTHING. I'm not about to send back the cowl so he has my money AND the cowl.

You are expecting him to send you the money back and let you have the cowl in hand?!? That is obsurd.

Ill take the rath for this next comment if I must... You are an idiot. You are going to try to bash a business and an outstanding reputation when you have been offered the same refund policy of any company in this great country. You need some sense knocked into you.

 

[crossram440]

Just wanted to chime in on a professional level about the carbon parts pictured and most of the stuff that is available to the "street" car buyer. First off the parts pictured by their appearance are not junk. That is typically what a properly cured and molded carbon piece will look like if is it laid with pre preg carbon and cured correctly. All of the Glassy carbon fiber pieces you see have been made with with other components such as the before mentioned clear coats or gel coats added as a first step or as an after treatment. Pre preg carbon gives the best strength to weight ratio of a given carbon part, "Extra" Resin or glossy clearcoats actually make a part not as effective from standpoint of it's pupose. An entire Indy car chassis has the same look as the parts pictured when delivered. Carbon fiber in it use was not designed as an asthetic look in it's raw form. The bare carbon pieces that we see on cars and products is a bastardized version of it's form. Many of the parts available (some, not all ,but you have to be careful) Use one or two layers of carbon (I have also seen Black fiberglass used, but has a very smal square pattern called plain weave instead of the big diagonal "twill" effect we like to see) then several layers of fiberglass with black dye in it. The worst part of these products is that they use Polyester resin instead of epoxy, It is only for decoration and does not posess the lightweight and strength properties of carbon fiber, What you have bought is essentially a glorified Fiberglasss part, usually this stuff is mostly prominent in the Import car world, those guys are buying "Carbon fiber " hodds and all they are getting is a fiberglass hood with one layer of carbon for decoration. If you want the best carbon fiber Strength to Weight product you want the ones like is pictured at the beginning of this thread, Pre Preg with the proper amount of resin determined. 9 times out of 10 though the average street car buyer is buying for the look and not for the actual qualities that a carbon fiber part can provide so the additives to get there are used to get that pretty look. There are lots of ways to produce a carbon part from hand lay ups and room tempurature cures and low buck wet resins, all the way to pre preg auto-clave components. I have been working with the stuff for 10yrs in the racing industry.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

If you were to show that cowl to a race car driver he would LOVE it, it weighs maybe 2 or 3 oz at most.

LOL It's funny you mentioned that because I thought it looked fine to me. BlackViperGTS send the pieces back. A lot of us can vouch for Steve but not many know you. No offense meant.

In fact, just send the pieces to me and Steve will reimburse you. He's just gonna send them to me anyway since none of the posers will want them.

 

[GTS-R 001]

LOL It's funny you mentioned that because I thought it looked fine to me. BlackViperGTS send the pieces back. A lot of us can vouch for Steve but not many know you. No offense meant.

In fact, just send the pieces to me and Steve will reimburse you. He's just gonna send them to me anyway since none of the posers will want them.

Damn it Chuck , your probably right.

On another note I will let you guys in on why I will not make an exception to the return policy with this one. This is one of the PM's I got from this guy making all the threats when he was trying to order the part.

"BlackViperGTS
Enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7

Re: carbon fiber cowl inquiry.
not trying to scam you here or anything but I took all the money out of my paypal account except the $500 because I thought when you said "all in" it meant shipping with it as well. Not even going to try and haggle you about it I'm just curious if I send over the $500 I have in the account would be enough for you to ship it out until I can deposit the other $50 into the account on Tuesday. I guess I just misunderstood but from talking to others your cowl is the best quality around so the price isn't the problem, like I said I just transfered everything out except the $500 like 2 days ago when you said it was $500.""

LOL - He already tried to "F" me out of the shipping, and now instead of just sending the part back and getting his money, he wants to threaten to run to all the other forums/boards in the world and bad mouth me, seems like a hell of a waste of time!

 

[GTS-R 001]

So even though he offered you a full refund+shipping(unheard of) you still come on here to bad mouth him?

Vipair and I don't have any love lost between us, but you are being completely unreasonable and attempting to drag his name through the dirt even though he is willing to make you happy at his own expense.

Hey Russ,

Thanks Man!

 

[bushido]

It doesnt look that bad to me. With that said my SVS CF cowl is almost the same..

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

he wants to threaten to run to all the other forums/boards in the world and bad mouth me

That's funny considering you only deal in Viper parts and if by "all the other forums" he means Viper forums they are visited largely by the same people and badmouthing you is gonna go nowhere.

This guy is a poser anyway Steve. Start listing your parts by a Tracker category and a Poser category. Might not solve anything but it should make for some heated discussion.

Where is he located anyway? If it is nearby I'll go pick the part up and install it on my Viper right in front of him.

 

[Chrissss]

Unreasonable? I think not. The product is some of the worst work I've ever seen. And he offers a full refund which is NOT unheard of when the product does not some as described or as it looks in the add presented. He can either refund my money and I'll ship him back the cowl, or I'll just post pictures of his work on every car website I know and let people judge for themselves whether or not they want to use Vipair for carbon fiber work. In carbon fiber, the materials are nearly nothing when it comes to cost--it's all workmanship. It's why people recommend others for carbon fiber work. Word of mouth is the only way carbon fiber people get business. If you'd like to see pictures of what he claims is the same work then here you go.

Carbon Fiber Cowl

It looks NOTHING like the cowl I got NOTHING. I'm not about to send back the cowl so he has my money AND the cowl. I can make this one work if I have to with many hours of sanding and clear coating---but if I have to I will drag his name through the mud as you say.

What you are expecting is completely, totally unreasonable. What other company would refund on a product before they had the product back? None! You paid for it before you got it didn't you? If he refunds and you don't send the item back, what recourse does he have? None. Buy something at a retail store and try and get a refund without returning the product first. I think Vipair is completely in the right. He offered a refund and quite frankly, it looks to me like you are trying to pull something. Okay, so you are aren't happy. Send it back and get your refund. No? Looks to me like you may have to decide to be happy with it. And, after you are completely being unreasonable, going against common sense business, what do you do? You threaten to literally blackmail him by trying to discredit him and his business on the net!! Sounds to me like we have an enthusiast that already needs to be booted off of this site. P.S.....remind me to never do business with you.

 

[GTS-R 001]

I think that if this cowl ever makes it back I'll spray it white and send it to Dave!

Chuck, I have one with no clear at all on it that you would just love, even has some **** spilled on it that won't wipe off!