propane injection...

Eddie N

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with all the talk of supercharging and turbo charging going around, i find it odd that no one really mentions propane injection as a source of lowering the intake charge tempertures to allow a forced induction car to run more boost..

besides raising the octane inside the cylinder, propanes main function is reducing the air intake temperture dramatically by being injected into the intake at -60 degrees.. this has allowed some vehicles with all supporting mods to run an extra 7 or 8 psi on 91 octane pump gas..

are any tuners or shadetree mechanics out there experimenting with propane?

- eddie -
 
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Eddie N

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im pretty sure the propane system from BTR is a power adder like nitrous oxide.. same stuff, different use..

- eddie -
 
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Eddie N

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actually sheyster, the dodge stealth/VR4 TT guys are doing it for under a grand.. and propane is severely cheap, as opposed to race gas.. supposedly a tank lasts a while as well..

and yes, from what i understand, it is computer controlled.. it is injected into the intake progressively from 5 psi (or whatever you set it at) on up to where you have your boost set..

- eddie -
 

USAF BAD ASP

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I would never drive around with a propane tank in my car. I can't believe the BTR nos/propane guys haven't realized this. Do you know what might happen if you are rear ended with a full propane tank? If that tank crushes and splits, and in the processes there is one tiny little spark, (which there is almost always when you are crushing/scraping metal) you are history. A full propane bottle will blow a car in the air and blow it to pieces. Have you ever seen the trailer homes or RV's where the propane tank exploded? It's just an unnecesary chance when there are other systems that can do the same job with less danger.
 
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Eddie N

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bad asp,

driving around with 20 gallons of highly flammable gasoline is pretty dangerous as well..

- eddie -
 

MaxedGTS

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tooth doc 58:
Gee I wonder about all those fork lifts.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Fork lifts are operated in an open environment. The propane tank on the back not is concealed to the atmosphere, therefore, the fumes are not confined to an enclosed environment.

Max
 

Tom Welch

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Wow,

Looks like we gots us a few real scientists on this here board!

Propane injection is everywhere, including the trunks of hundreds of Vipers and other cars as a fuel supplement.

Grills, heaters, diesel trucks, tractors, rv's, industrial machinery, CIGARETTE LIGHTERS, and so on.

To be so narrow minded and rediculous in statements about propane use and storage in automotive applications only shows the ignorance of the poster.

Gasoline is far more flammable and its storage tank in all cars including the viper is far less stringent in its manufacture and testing requirements as a typical propane tank.

Just the facts.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com
 
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Eddie N

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also, im not talking about a 20 lb tank your typical gas grill would use, just a little 5 pound tank the size of a small fire extiguisher.. just enough so that if it blows, you'll only lose an eye
smile.gif
..

tom,

does the use of propane as a fuel supplement in a nitrous set up allow you to run a bigger shot because of lower air intake temps reducing the threshold of detonation?

excuse my ignorance, i dont know too much about nitrous..

- eddie -
 

Tom Welch

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Eddie,

It's a well kept secret that fuel(gasoline)puddling in the Viper intake manifold has caused explosions from leaking gasoline solenoids, too rich mixtures, backfires, etc. Propane is injected into the engine in a gaseous state(like the Nitrous) and does NOT have distribution problems that are associated with higher specific gravity gasoline.

Propane is lighter than gasoline, much higher octane, CHEAPER, and is self contained and uses bottle pressure to flow, therefore has NO moving parts to break, stick open or other failures which can cause severe engine damage.

Nitrous power is directly proportional to engine air fuel ratios, timing and most importantly detonation. Controlling detonation is the key to making more power on nitrous. Propane resists detonation better than any racing gasoline which in turn allows us to make as much power as any gasoline supplemented nitrous system on the market.

We do offer a gasoline addition for those who do not wish to use propane. The difference in our system from others is two fold.
1. We do not use gasoline that is slated for use by the fuel injectors..this could create a lean condition at WOT.

2. We offer a FRONT MOUNT fuel cell, which is the accepted method from the NHRA for fuel cell mounting.

No gas smell in your driver compartment, no need for big loud pumps that have to PUSH fuel forward during acceleration, and the list goes on.

Feel free to field any intelligent questions on the field of nitrous usage. There are many alternatives, but im willing to bet that over the last 20 years no-one has flowed more Nitrous SAFELY through engines than we have.

Great topic though, keep it going..

Tom
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Gerald

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
Eddie,

It's a well kept secret that fuel(gasoline)puddling in the Viper intake manifold has caused explosions from leaking gasoline solenoids, too rich mixtures, backfires, etc. Propane is injected into the engine in a gaseous state(like the Nitrous) and does NOT have distribution problems that are associated with higher specific gravity gasoline.

Propane is lighter than gasoline, much higher octane, CHEAPER, and is self contained and uses bottle pressure to flow, therefore has NO moving parts to break, stick open or other failures which can cause severe engine damage.

Nitrous power is directly proportional to engine air fuel ratios, timing and most importantly detonation. Controlling detonation is the key to making more power on nitrous. Propane resists detonation better than any racing gasoline which in turn allows us to make as much power as any gasoline supplemented nitrous system on the market.

We do offer a gasoline addition for those who do not wish to use propane. The difference in our system from others is two fold.
1. We do not use gasoline that is slated for use by the fuel injectors..this could create a lean condition at WOT.

2. We offer a FRONT MOUNT fuel cell, which is the accepted method from the NHRA for fuel cell mounting.

No gas smell in your driver compartment, no need for big loud pumps that have to PUSH fuel forward during acceleration, and the list goes on.

Feel free to field any intelligent questions on the field of nitrous usage. There are many alternatives, but im willing to bet that over the last 20 years no-one has flowed more Nitrous SAFELY through engines than we have.

Great topic though, keep it going..

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
.
gawd, I guess I have a lean running, unsafe, fuel pushing monster.. **** , should've gone the Nitrous route...
smile.gif


Tom, next time you see a mobil home, they all bolt the propane tank on the outside, not on the inside in an enclosed compartment..

p.s. Love my fuel cell...
 

FastMatt

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That is My kit that you are talking about that is being used on the stealths/3000gt's, we sell it for $525, it allows stealths/3000gt's to run about 7psi more boost on 91 pump gas (22psi vs 15psi)...

here is a vid of A person that works for me, driving his 3000Gt VR-4, with up-graded turbos ect, running 22psi, and Propane. Smoking my Viper from a roll (on a closed test track in Mexico)

http://www.dynamicracing.com/racing_movies/ryan-3000gt-vs-matt-viper-acr-dynamicracing.com.avi


we use a 1.5gal tank, and it lasts a month or so, it only comes on when making over 14psi of boost... If I put a blower on my viper I will have it on there..
 

USAF BAD ASP

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
Wow,

Looks like we gots us a few real scientists on this here board!

Propane injection is everywhere, including the trunks of hundreds of Vipers and other cars as a fuel supplement.

Grills, heaters, diesel trucks, tractors, rv's, industrial machinery, CIGARETTE LIGHTERS, and so on.

To be so narrow minded and rediculous in statements about propane use and storage in automotive applications only shows the ignorance of the poster.

Gasoline is far more flammable and its storage tank in all cars including the viper is far less stringent in its manufacture and testing requirements as a typical propane tank.

Just the facts.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Typically the propane powered cars I've seen have the tanks mounted somewhere that is vented, and somewhere that is NOT in a crumple zone. Which is what the trunk in a viper is. It's designed to crush and absorb a rear end collision.

How many 18wheelers, fork lifts, etc, do you see with the propane tanks mounted on the back just hanging off where they could be crushed?

If you put a full propane tank and a full gas tank in the middle of a large field, opened the valve on the propane, and opened the lid on the gas tank, then shot them both with a gun, which would you think would explode first? I'd bet the propane. Propane vaporizes easier, which is when it's most explosive/flammable. The propane is also under pressure, so it's shooting out any hole/crack it can find. The gas will just sit there. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I do remember seeing a video of a guy holding a spark plug submerged in a small glass filled with gas, and sparked the plug, but nothing happened. Because it's mostly gas vapor that will start a fire. That stuff of cars exploding from a rear end collision is from the movies. Yes, it can and does happen, but not as easily as most think. Talk to a fireman, and they will probably tell you most of the car fires they see are electrical, not from crushing gas tanks. The gas tanks I saw at the local nissan plant that they use now are a highly pucture resistant plastic, which won't spark if punctured, and will bend and absorb a crash better than metal.

At the local uhaul station where I get my grill propane tank filled, there is a sign that says the propane tank MUST be vented on the ride home. (ie, it can't be in a trunk, it has to be in the cab with the windows open) I'm not sure if that is any kind of state or federal law, but are you sure about that?

I think it's funny you made fun of me by calling me a bad scientists when I just stated my opinion on the setup. Then, in response you compare driving around in a fast sports car with a big propane tank in your trunk to:

tractors - that's a good one, how many tractors you see doing over 10mph in anything other than a deserted field?

cig lights - this is my favorite... i have yet to see any lighters collide at 70mph while lighting a cigarette...

grills - see above

industrial machines - see above

rv's - all the rv's I've seen have them mounted on the tongue of the trailer in between the rv and towing truck fairly well protected, or somewhere away from where an accident could crush them.

forks lifts were mentioned - the tanks are mounted on the top of the rear end, out of the way of being crushed if another fork where to hit it at the 5-10mph that they do go...

If propane tanks have more stringent testing processes, wouldn't that signal that it's because they are more susceptible to explosions? Isn't it true that the current standard propane tanks were designed with a stationary product in mind? (ie, grill, or slow moving fork lift?)

If I am wrong about propane being more dangerous than gas tanks in a collision, and you are right when you say they are no more dangerous than gas, that means that by putting a propane tank in the back of your car, you are DOUBLING your chance of an explosion in a rear end accident. So, even in the scenario that it isn't more dangerous than gas, you are still 2x your chance of an explosion.. but what if I'm right and it is more suscetible to explosion. What if your explosion chances are now 3x... or 10x... or 20x..???

I would consider a propane system if the tank was small enough, mounted in a non-crumple zone location and perhaps was a special vehicle tank that was designed with cars in mind, not grills or forklifts.

I'm not bashing you tom, i'm just giving my opinion. Much of which is just based on things I've picked up over the years. Can I give you a government study that says everything I just said is fact? Nope. Can you give me one that says you're in no more danger with a big propane tank added in your trunk during a rear end accident, VS no propane tank and just your gas tank back there? Nope

So, it just comes down to a matter of opinion. But seeing as you make your living off selling this stuff, thus making you a salesman, (and we all know how honest salesmen can be at times, right?) I will take your opinion with a grain of salt.

I am willing to change my opinion however, if honests, serious facts can be presented to show I'm wrong. Otherwise, my gut feeling is the best thing I've got to go on..
 

CAS

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I have yet to see any lighters collide at 70mph while lighting a cigarette...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
we all know how honest salesmen can be at times, right?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're talking John Hennessey, than that's so true it's not even funny, but Tom seems to me a very standup guy. JMHO.

Remember, No Flame Intended USAF
smile.gif
.

Clint
 

GaryA

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
Wow,

Gasoline is far more flammable and its storage tank in all cars including the viper is far less stringent in its manufacture and testing requirements as a typical propane tank.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure that gasoline is more flammable than propane, but even if it is I know in my area there are several tunnels where propane tanks are prohibited. Why would they be prohibited if they are safer than gas tanks?

Also, would an insurance company deny coverage for a car equipped with a propane bottle in the trunk? I've talked to a few guys that run the nitrous/propane setup and they all seemed uneasy with the propane in the trunk. I've also known of two who have removed their systems.
 

USAF BAD ASP

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no flames taken clint. I understand and like I said, I'm not bashing Tom and I'm sure he's a good guy. From what I've picked up on around here his rep is top notch.

I have to admit, when I first got my viper, his system was what I wanted. But after thinking about it I'm against it. If you look at the raw numbers, I think Tom is correct in saying propane is less flammable, but that's not what we're worried about here. What we're worried about is how EASY it will ignite. And since a small hole/crack in a propane tank can send highly ignitable vapors shooting everywhere, and a gas tank with a crack will either drip slowly, or not at all (since it's not under pressure) then, when looking at it that way, which one becomes the obvious danger?

Also, Tom mentioned that there are hundreds of vipers driving around that have been doing so safely. Well, DUH! I don't care if they can DRIVE around safely. I want to know what happens in a serious accident!

I could drive around for 5 years and not ever wear my seat belt. Does that mean I can come on here and proclaim it's perfectly safe to drive with no seat belts because i've been doing it for 5 years? NO! See how silly that sounds? You have to do some crash annalysis before you can say it's safe doing it your way.

To sum it up: I'm erring on the safe side, especially seeing there are other options which do the same job with less apparent danger. Once again, nothing against Tom, in fact when I'm serious about a regular nitrous setup, I'm going to call him about his packages, just not a propane one unless facts can prove my gut feeling wrong.
 

Gerald

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I just thought I'd chime in here (again)....

I remembered something a WHILE back I did as a kid and it stuck with me..

We were going out camping and I bought some cheap lighter fluid... hehe, GASOLINE! 87 octane.. Throw it on the fire, throw a match at it **********... Next time out, I bought some superunleaded.... I could NOT get the campfire to light by throwing a match on it!! I had to have the match sit in the flame for a second or two...

Now I'm thinking with the fuel cell in my car if I did get into a wreck (
frown.gif
) where it would, if possible, puncture it. It would take some serious fire to ignite it as the octane points are 11 points higher (103 race fuel) than the 92 octane I used when camping.. And I KNOW a spark or series of sparks wouldn't even come close to igniting it.. Now I thinking what would happen if I would take a spark to a propane tank if it would leak in the back of the car with my factory stereo amp only popping fuse... ****KABOOM*****

OK dumb story, but I thought it was edumakational for me..

Gerald
 

Tom Welch

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While I don't have time to answer everyones responses I can say from experience of ownership that a Custom Motorhome(prevost bus) has the propane tanks mounted inside the chassis. I would be willing to say that they are typically mounted outside because they are much easier to access for refilling from outside of the vehicle.

The gun theory is a little overboard..a stick of dynamite just sitting in a field is far less harmful than a propane or gas tank, but shoot it and see what happens. Ive never seen on any TV shows or movies the guy shooting at the forklift propane tank, but I can think of dozens of clips of gas tanks getting shot and exploding..just saw Mission Impossible II the other night and saw Cruise shooting the cars gas tank while riding his motorcycle on the front wheel! BOOM! Lets get real.

What about all of the propane heaters, ovens and other IN home appliances?

This is a topic that will continue on for ever. I feel perfectly safe with my propane tank in the "crumple zone" of my Viper. I feel less safe about the nitrous tank and gas tank that are also in the same area.

There are lots of different ways to mod these cars, I like the advantages of propane injection far more than the risks that are associated with its use. I wouldn't have a rear mounted fuel cell in my viper if someone gave me a brand new car with it installed..but thats just me. If you don't like what I have to sell, don't buy it, but don't bash it until you either try it or have beat it.

Tom
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Gerald

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Exactly. Don't bash it... You seem to be the 1st person to bash anything you do not sell
smile.gif
, or cannot make.


Gerald
 

VENM8R

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(info gleaned from some MSD's at my work) I know this is a little long, but I do not want to see people get the wrong information or idea about propane (compared to gasoline).

Let's compare some of the characteristics of both:

Typical Unleaded Fuel(gasoline):
FLAMMABLE PROPERTIES:
FLASH POINT: -50 F
AUTOIGNITION TEMP: C.A. 495 F
EXPLOSIVE LIMITS (% BY VOLUME IN AIR)
LOWER: 1.4
UPPER: 7.6

Portable containers of 12 gallons (45 liters) or less should never be filled with gasoline while they are in or on a motor vehicle or marine craft. Static electric discharge can ignite fuel vapors when filling non-grounded containers or vehicles on trailers. Containers should be placed on the ground. The nozzle spout must be kept in contact with the container before and duringt the entire filling operation. Use only approved containers.

FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARDS:
This material has been determined to be a flammable liquid. Vapors may travel along the ground or be moved by ventilation and ignited by many sources such as pilot lights, sparks, electric motors, static discharge, or other ignition sources at locations distant from material handling.
Flashback may occur along vapor trail. For additional fire related information, see NFPA 30 or North American Emergency Response Guide 128.

NFPA CLASSIFICATION/HAZARD RATING

HEALTH: 1
FIRE: 3
REACTIVITY: 0
OTHER: -

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Propane; or Petroleum Gas, Liquified:
Flash Point: -156 F
Auto-ignition temp: 842 F
Flammable limits in air (%): 2.15% (lower) - 9.8% (upper)

HEALTH: 1
FIRE: 4
REACTIVITY: 0

Fire And Explosion Hazards:
Propane is easily ignited. It is heavier than air, therefore, it may collect in low areas or travel along the ground where an ignition source may be present. Pressure in a container can build up due to heat, and it may rupture if pressure relief devices should fail to function.

Hazardous Combustion Products: None known.
Sensitivity To Static Discharge: Possible, container should be grounded.
Sensitivity To Mechanical Impact: None.

HANDLING AND STORAGE
Storage:
Specific requirements are listed in NFPA 58. Cylinder storage locations should be well-protected, well-ventilated, dry, and separated from combustible materials.

Cylinders should never knowingly be allowed to reach a temperature exceeding 125°F (52°C). Cylinders of propane should be separated from oxygen cylinders or other oxidizers by a minimum distance of 20 ft., or by a barrier of non-combustible
material at least 5 ft. high having a fire resistance rating of at least ½ hour.
Full and empty cylinders should be segregated. Use a first-in, first-out inventory system to prevent full containers from being stored for long periods of time.

Cylinders should be stored upright with valve protection cap in place and firmly secured to prevent falling or being knocked over. Protect cylinders from physical amage; do not drag, roll, slide or drop. Use a suitable hand truck for cylinder movement.

Post "No Smoking or Open Flames" signs in the storage areas. There should be no sources of ignition. All electrical equipment should be explosion proof in the storage and use areas. Storage areas must meet national electric codes for class 1 hazardous areas.

Handling: Propane is heavier than air and may collect in low areas that are without proper ventilation. Leak check system with leak detection solution, never with flame. If user experiences difficulty operating cylinder valve, discontinue use and contact supplier.
Never insert an object (e.g., wrench, screwdriver, pry bar, etc.) into valve cap openings. Doing so may damage valve, causing a leak to occur. Use an adjustable strap wrench to remove over-tight or rusted caps.
Non-sparking tools should be used. Never strike an arc on a compressed gas cylinder or make a cylinder a part of an electrical circuit. Electrically bond and ground cylinder when transferring liquid product.
-----------------------------------------------
 

Tom Welch

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AKVIPER,

EXCELLENT POST!!

The propane tanks that we use and sell have 3 built in safety features to prevent overfilling.
1. A "float valve" that only allows the tank to be filled to 60% of its capacity. The filling station has no possible way to overfill this tank regardless of the knowledge or capabilities of the filling station attendant.

2. An overflow vent system that allows excess propane or propane that is too warm to vent overboard without using a blow off valve.

3. A blow off valve set at the factory to 325 psi(the tank itself is rated at 1350 psi and ANSI and DOT Approved for use in Vehicles that travel on the highway.

I live in Florida where the summer time daytime high temps average 97+ degrees during the day and my propane tank mounted in the trunk of my GTS has NEVER exceeded 190 psi..NEVER. The cars interior temp exceeded 130 degrees on several occasions. My main concern is for the NOS blow off valve breaking and wasting a bottle of nitrous under the car as Nitrous has a resting pressure of 900 psi at 85 degrees and over 1200 psi at near 100 degrees(the nitrous blow off valve is set at 1600+-100 psi while the bottle can withstand 3300 psi).

Tom
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