Bravo
Enthusiast
I'm thinking about getting one. Prefer perfect used, otherwise I'll check with JonB...but not on Mondays.
Random Tech GTS Muffler Delete
- Thread starter Bravo
- Start date
Ricketts
Enthusiast
Great product! I installed one awhile back on a buddies 96 GTS, went on with a breeze
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
Any good muffler shop can do this with two 18" pieces of pipe and 1/2 hour labor. I had him put the stock tips back on. Paid $30 bucks total in 2000 for the muffler delete at my local shop.
Steve
Steve
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
No, it was aluminized tubing, just like my entire exhaust has now been for the last 73,000 miles. Except for new mufflers, my system has never been touched since install in 4/01. I am well aware that SS exhausts are touted as the best, but I know of cases where under high heat (and warranty) it can get brittle and break, due to the extra heat build up in the SS pipe. On a Viper, which typically sees zero salty conditions, there's really no good reason to worry about longevity for aluminized tubing.....especially two 18" pieces. The rear muffler delete is a great way to improve the stock sound very cheaply if you go to your local shop.
That being said, I just called my shop. He said 2.5" T304 SS runs about $7 per foot. That's $21 dollars in pipe. He told me $45 out the door.
I've spent big dollars on our car over the years and paid plenty of Viper tax along the way, but for a rear muffler delete, there is no added benefit to spending a bunch of money for something so simple to do.
Steve
dave6666
Enthusiast
I'm with you all the way on that Steve. But just out of curiosity, what does the big box kit cost in comparison?
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
A quick check looks to be $550 or so plus shipping
Steve
Steve
Glen97
Enthusiast
I put one on my 96 RT/10 and also have one on my 97 GTS. Easy install nice sound and the 4 inch tips look killer.
Glen
Glen
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
If the price I found above is about right........those tips outta be killer at about $250 each
Steve
dave6666
Enthusiast
If the price I found above is about right........those tips outta be killer at about $250 each
Steve
Glen97
Enthusiast
If the price I found above is about right........those tips outta be killer at about $250 each
Steve
They do look killer! A much better look than stock. Your also getting 3 inch SS with the X pipe. So its more than just a muffler delete.
Glen
dave6666
Enthusiast
Glen97
Enthusiast
Any dyno numbers floating around?
I dont know of any. I just like the look and the sound.
Glen
Bravo
Enthusiast
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
Ok. So now you've 3” choked down to 2.5” from the end of this assembly forward. What’s the purpose of that? Can’t see it from the street. Power gain? I doubt it. 4” tips…. 4” tips could easily be put on the stock 2.5” pipe. X pipe…no power adder here. I’ve always been told that Xs and Hs are effective for a slight power gain in systems of unequal length --sideways motors for example. They then have to be placed as close to the unequal portion as possible. Ie. back at the engine or wherever the pipes come back together again. Viper exhaust is the exact same length…..therefore there is basically zero power gain. If anything, on a Viper, it might possibly serve to quiet it down a tad. The rear muffler delete is fairly benign mod to start with. Great improvement over stock, but it definitely doesn’t need an X pipe to make it quieter. Bottom line is you basically paid over $500 dollars for 2 tips, as the same sound (maybe better) and HP gains can be accomplished by the above.
I hate to say it, but people willing to pay this kind of money for something so simple to do is part of the reason the Viper tax came to be. Dodge is responsible as well…….like a power steering cap.
Viper $25 bucks / JEEP $5 bucks……same cap. Ridiculous!
Steve
dave6666
Enthusiast
You can buy SS exhaust tips from your local Redneck truck accessory shops. Probably the same math as pointed out on the P/S cap above.
Bravo
Enthusiast
How about some hi-res pics of Random vs. Redneck.....?
dave6666
Enthusiast
Redneck pics delivered.
And why would I have pics of the Random? Don't they?
And why would I have pics of the Random? Don't they?
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Bravo
Enthusiast
Thanks Dave..... McGuiverized Redneck......function over form.
Anyone have good Random delete pics? Going to have to be a few hundred dollars prettier.
Anyone have good Random delete pics? Going to have to be a few hundred dollars prettier.
CROM
Viper Owner
Depends on where you live. 30 bucks in the country, 300 dollars where I live. Most shops see a Viper and start salivating. They also refuse to do something like this without spending the time to jack the car up and measure. I live in a wealthy area where most car guys love paying ridiculous rates for "top quality" work. 200 an hour is not out of the ordinary for any type of labor. I purchased a used Borla for 600 instead.
IMHO get a full exhaust system, you'll regret not getting a full system a few months down the road. The full RT is 1000 shipped from PartsRack?
LiquoRT/10
Enthusiast
I was told I have RT's with muffler delete. My system came with the car. I also have Daves redneck tips.
Wow that's just way wrong. My homemade H pipes have twice added over 20hp to my Vipers. Gains like that from H pipes are very much the norm is for just about all hi-po engines-especially big cubic inch engines.
Which is why I first made one for my '94 Viper having read about H pipe tests in the magazines since the 70's or maybe even prior to that. The identical successor to that one (which went with the '94 when I sold it) again lowered the ET by over .2 sec on my '99 GTS two years ago.
Now I'm happy to say that H pipe is on my near stock '01 ACR which managed three runs over 121mph and one run over 123mph a few weeks ago. Couldn't get past 11.90s that day, I think I was shifting at too high an rpm. I'm still playing with shift points and exhaust changes.
I'm going back to the strip tomorrow to test a new exhaust change aft of the H pipe, and try some different shift lite pills.
The difference is that my H pipe is not back where the rear muffler used to be, which might alter someone's resonance factor, but is too far back to do any good hp-wise.
H pipes have been around forever...
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
If you're not running a H pipe where the rear muffler was then you must be running a crossover somewhere further upstream. Care to show pics or let us know?
dave6666
Enthusiast
Chuck, you silly head! It runs through the seat bottom cushions and under the tranny tailshaft housing!
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
I’ve been away for several days Woodward Dream Cruising, but after reading this message decided to school up a little better on X / H pipes. First, I just Googled for a while. That was pretty much a toss up as to any gains from a H or X pipe. Some said each balanced the system better, but were both more for evening out sound. More places I found said the X pipe was capable of producing very slight power gains. Not so much with the H pipe. In doing a little more reading, I found out that OEMs have mainly used H pipes for acoustics --- still do.
Next, because I have 2 Belanger cars, I thought it fair to get a little free info from Lou Belanger. Here’s where it got interesting. According to Lou, both Xs and Hs were likely first implemented by his father. The Belangers have been in the hot rod header / exhaust business since 1957. He said an X pipe can create slight power gains, but must be configured properly. Sticking a X between two lengths of straight pipe accomplishes nothing.
The H pipe concept occurred somewhat by accident while his father was experimenting with different ideas. They found that the H pipe changed the sound qualities by mixing sound from the 2 sides. As Lou put it…..exhaust gas (or single puffs of air as he puts it) will not take a 90 degree left or right turn to go through an H pipe, but sound will. Sound will mix with the other side producing a different exhaust note which is more performance sounding for the most part. . Hot Rod magazine chronicled these Belanger innovations in a 1962 article. He says they have not seen a car produce more power with a H pipe. They have found that H pipes will alter sound almost anywhere in the system…even back where the rear mufflers are. On the other hand, an X pipe is more properly placed closer to the engine, not where the rear mufflers are. He said balance is not an issue because each pulse is making its way down the pipes alone.
….Which led to dynos….and their distrust of the numbers game. They have done a thousand plus dyno pulls over the years, but have come to the conclusion that it is a very inexact method. Peak HP on a dyno does not necessarily make a car faster. It is the power under the curve. There is about a +/-3% factor for dyno numbers on any given day /car /dyno. Even for a stock Viper that becomes a +/- 12HP swing. Peak HP sometimes becomes a bench racing game and does not translate to the ground.
As the ¼ mile, any GENII Viper can break 12 seconds with a good driver (not me)
Now I know this is pretty much contrary to your research and experience, but I do believe the Belanger Boys have some chops in their chosen area of expertise. I am reporting what I was told…nothing more. Lou did say that you may have some sort of design he’s not familiar with, but the basic construction of a H pipe yields zero power in any testing they’ve ever done.
As for the premise of the discussion above, I’ll stand my ground. Value and bang for the buck should be the same everywhere. Sadly, and for no good reason, it seems these things have taken a back seat in some areas allowing the Viper tax to fatten up even more.
Steve
i somewhat agree, but your comment has nothing to do specificaly with Vipers but rather everything to do with Anyone with a Nice car that has; lack of auto knowlege/time/connections, or simply too much money. Everyone has different situations.
also, your 30bucks in and out was a good deal, but as someone mentioned; when you pull up to the shop with a viper some shops think they can charge u whatever. I know a muffler delete would only take a 1/2 hr, but would expect to pay 1hr of labor + materials. no prob
2001 GTS
Enthusiast
I've had the random tech x-pipe for almost 6yrs now and is the only part of the exhaust setup that has never been changed.
dave6666
Enthusiast
What have you done to the rest?
I've got a lengthy exhaust test done with tons of scientific equipment stored somewhere that at one part notes the effect of a pipe running off perpendicular to the exhaust, but I'm not going to look for it. You can't tell forced induction guys anything anyways.
It's hard to figure it out completely. I'm told when you open the block off plates on cars with lakes pipes, the exhaust will still pulse out the tailpipes rather than the lakes pipes.. When I ran my '94 back in 1996 with the block off plates removed like open dumps just to see what happened, the car wasn't any quicker at all, still running consistent 12.38/12.39s like when the system was capped up.
But when I pulled back into the pits, bolted up the H pipe quickly, then went back out, the car ran 12.16 & 12.12 on the next two runs. The car had a shift lite and DRs, eliminating a lot of variables.
Best my '99 GTS was doing on its' initial outings a couple years ago was 12 teens, until I went back two weeks later to the same strip with the H pipe bolted up and ran 11.89 & 11.93. Again with a shift lite and DRs.
With the closest strips each 50 miles away, I don't use race winning holeshots when I'm doing test and tune. No sense breaking something while only looking for small improvements. So I use starts that don't yield the best ETs, but are easy on parts and yield consistent results.
I'm not making huge changes, so there aren't huge gains. 121-123mph trap speeds are doing pretty good though on a near stock creampuff with DRs that eliminate the higher MPH when you're spinning a lot factor. That's better than my '99 GTS at the same strip. Trap speed changes are typically seen as indication of HP, where ET is more driver.
Here ya go Chuck, each side bolts up where the flex pipe was, crosses under the frame, meeting the other side in front of the trans:
I made it U shaped to avoid running directly under the oil pan. Maybe the extra length is the secret.
I'm adding a Borla catback tomorrow to free the exhaust up behind the sills, replacing the Borla sill mufflers with 5" inlet/outlet bullet mufflers just to keep things breathing free. That'll take a little exhaust fabrication under the sills, but that's okay-real testing requires more effort for answers than web surfing does.
Then one more little innovation between the engine and sills to try, which will require removing the H pipe.. So I'll be giving up .2 right off the bat.
Shelby's gone from X pipe to H pipe on one of his Mustangs btw, I think it's on the KR...guess he should call Lou?
I don't know that any header builder's going to admit that $100 worth of tubing yields gains the same as his $1500 headers. I mean what's he going to say, "Oh ya just use a 3' of tubing under there and you'll get +20hp too!" ? Most guys adding headers alone are only seeing a 20-25hp gain, same as my H pipe added - on two different cars - under fairly controlled conditions.
- I posted my first results here way back in 1996. I believe that was before Lou was building Viper headers, so it's not like I reported my results then just to say it could be done for less than his...
That's all I've got to say on it.
It's hard to figure it out completely. I'm told when you open the block off plates on cars with lakes pipes, the exhaust will still pulse out the tailpipes rather than the lakes pipes.. When I ran my '94 back in 1996 with the block off plates removed like open dumps just to see what happened, the car wasn't any quicker at all, still running consistent 12.38/12.39s like when the system was capped up.
But when I pulled back into the pits, bolted up the H pipe quickly, then went back out, the car ran 12.16 & 12.12 on the next two runs. The car had a shift lite and DRs, eliminating a lot of variables.
Best my '99 GTS was doing on its' initial outings a couple years ago was 12 teens, until I went back two weeks later to the same strip with the H pipe bolted up and ran 11.89 & 11.93. Again with a shift lite and DRs.
With the closest strips each 50 miles away, I don't use race winning holeshots when I'm doing test and tune. No sense breaking something while only looking for small improvements. So I use starts that don't yield the best ETs, but are easy on parts and yield consistent results.
I'm not making huge changes, so there aren't huge gains. 121-123mph trap speeds are doing pretty good though on a near stock creampuff with DRs that eliminate the higher MPH when you're spinning a lot factor. That's better than my '99 GTS at the same strip. Trap speed changes are typically seen as indication of HP, where ET is more driver.
Here ya go Chuck, each side bolts up where the flex pipe was, crosses under the frame, meeting the other side in front of the trans:
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I made it U shaped to avoid running directly under the oil pan. Maybe the extra length is the secret.
I'm adding a Borla catback tomorrow to free the exhaust up behind the sills, replacing the Borla sill mufflers with 5" inlet/outlet bullet mufflers just to keep things breathing free. That'll take a little exhaust fabrication under the sills, but that's okay-real testing requires more effort for answers than web surfing does.
Then one more little innovation between the engine and sills to try, which will require removing the H pipe.. So I'll be giving up .2 right off the bat.
Shelby's gone from X pipe to H pipe on one of his Mustangs btw, I think it's on the KR...guess he should call Lou?
I don't know that any header builder's going to admit that $100 worth of tubing yields gains the same as his $1500 headers. I mean what's he going to say, "Oh ya just use a 3' of tubing under there and you'll get +20hp too!" ? Most guys adding headers alone are only seeing a 20-25hp gain, same as my H pipe added - on two different cars - under fairly controlled conditions.
- I posted my first results here way back in 1996. I believe that was before Lou was building Viper headers, so it's not like I reported my results then just to say it could be done for less than his...
That's all I've got to say on it.
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