Road Racers (ABS a must or not)

[bluestreak]

Having heard from Rogue I am having confidence that I can get the 99 and previous car without stressing too much about not having ABS. I wanted some opinions from those who have driven Road Courses with and without abs. I am looking to see how the majority rules on this issue. Is it a death trap without ABS. I drive VERY HARD when I go so if you pamper your car around the track let me know so I can adjust accordingly to your response.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I love non-ABS. It took me several years and a lot of flat-spots to get good with it but I was determined.

No doubt non-ABS is at a disadvantage against an ABS car, but when I'm racing for big bucks I'll lodge a complaint. For now, I'm having fun hearing people say "Holy ****, you don't have ABS?"

 

[bluestreak]

Do BBK's completely dissolve the problem? OR do they make it harder to brake with the added clamping force?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I autocross and go to time trials with my '94 daily driver. Now has ~85,000 miles and one notable off road excursion. Driven enough to go through OEM, B3#, R4S, R4, EBC pads to see the difference. Same for MXX3, XGTZ, Kuhmo, and full race tires. My only limit to brake comments is two systems - OEM and 40mm rears.

The stock brake system is unbalanced. While safe because the fronts do most of the work anyway, it isn't very comfortable. Having a balanced system makes a huge difference. Properly sized calipers is one way to get there, and an ABS system is electronically giving you a balanced system.

Yes, I make and sell calipers, so install the bee ess filter, but I can relate the same stories as Chuck when people say "Holy ****, you don't have ABS?" I especially like the ones that follow me into turns but not out of them. Braking is 90% balance, 10% size.

Without ABS, the biggest adjustment will be learning that you achieve maximum braking in a straight line. Ignoring rain, dirty road, etc, non-ABS is slightly less effective in turns. Conversely, if you become skilled with the car, the rear braking can help rotate the car during corner entry.

If you keep the same master cylinder, more brake caliper piston volume will allow better modulation. Basically you have to move the foot pedal more to fill up the space behind more/larger pistons.

Finally, think this through - a BBK isn't really going to have substantially more clamping force applied, if any. Your deceleration rate is dependent on the tire friction against the road surface. If a brake system applies enough clamping force to lock up a wheel, more clamping power doesn't slow the car any better. The only way to slow down faster is to get all four wheels to reach imminent lock up simulataneously.

Another thought experiment about BBKs: you will gain a huge huge huge amount of clamping force with a 4 piston rear caliper - but then you will keep the rear caliper from applying 75% of that by dialing down the adjustable proportioning valve. If you didn't, you'd be locking the rears instantly.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

There are advantages to BBK. For one, the larger caliper allows for more heat dissipation and potentially a larger and thicker pad. Imagine trying to stop a spinning wheel with a finger and then try stopping it with the full palm of your hand. Each BBK is different, but all of them are larger than the GenII stocker and those are important considerations for serious competition.

That being said, Tom's rear brake upgrade deserves big props. For amateur competition Tom's brakes with a good driver will wipe out the field. I wish he had been doing those 10 years ago. I would have saved $$$.

I have Stoptech fronts and a special Tom rear stock caliper upgrade and I am very, very happy with it.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Chuck, I'll sort of go along with the overall comment about BBKs, except I think the benefit has to be from getting a larger pad. That's where the heat is generated and a larger pad will tolerate more thermal abuse, maintain a more constant temperature (for friction performance) and last longer. If you have to rely on a larger caliper body to dissipate heat, that seems too late.

There are lots of interesting what-ifs. If the caliper is aluminum, it sheds heat quickly, but that also means it absorbs heat quickly. Does that mean the fluid gets hotter? And weight - a four-piston rear caliper plus add-on parking brake weighs more than a (40mm) cast caliper that already includes the parking brake.

Chuck, I can't get a comment about poser brake covers? After the custom version just for you? Sheesh.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

As much as I appreciate the poser covers it is unlikely they will ever get bolted to one of my Vipers. If you need to get rid of them I can put them on my shelf next to my tropheys.

 

[bluestreak]

So would doing the front to back conversion with 14in fronts be good enough. And how much is that total package?

Thanks

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

What kind of car and brakes did you have before?

 

[Viper TT/10]

is there a better master cylinder available for gen2's? i'm going with 8 piston monoblocks up front and 4 pistons in the rear. or is there a good proportioning valve that will work well with the stock gen2 master cylinder.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The ABS master cylinder you have is already larger diameter than the non-ABS. The Gen 3 and Gen 2 ABS masters are the same.

 

[Viper TT/10]

thanks for that info tom. if you were to build the best brake system for the viper, what prop valve and master cylinder would you use, to swap out the stock units?

 

[bluestreak]

What kind of car and brakes did you have before?

I dont even have a viper yet.. Using this info to make the best decision based on what I plan to do with the car. It's either ABS or forged pistons and I am looking to get about 600 rwhp N/A so I'm thinking that I should get the ABS but not if a BBK will do the trick.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Viper TT/10, you should seriously consult with the caliper manufacturers. With that many pistons, special brackets, your intended use, etc. you will also want to have SS lines, pedal geometry, your ABS, and pad selection factored into a prop valve and MC choice.

bluestreak, I meant your previous car and it's brakes so that we can all adjust according to your response. Sounds like you want Dave's Big Brakes anyway. Look in the Supplier Forum section.

 

[bluestreak]

I have a 2000 M5 and a 01 TT Vette.

 

[Viper TT/10]

tom, the manufacturer has said that the master cylinder would do the trick. i was just wondering if you had any info on the best master and prop valve available that would be easily modified for the viper.

i do have ss lines and brackets to fit the monster 15" rotors up front and 14" in the rears.

thanks for the info.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

bluestreak, both cars are lighter, so Dave's kit would give the stopping power, but you might also want to look at cooling. If you are that aggressive, they'll get hot.

Viper TT/10, no other info for you, sorry. From a practical sense, if you put the prop valve inside the cockpit, I would suggest one with a rotating knob rather than the multiple position lever. It just seems less likely to get accidentally bumped.

 

[SylvanSRT]

The ABS and braking system on gen II's '01 & '02 are ok. They still suffered from a tremendous amount of fade once they heated up(not very confidence inspiring!). They pale in comparison to the ABS and braking power of the '03 and later SRT-10 vipers. the '03 and later also have electronic brake distribution.

 

[KepRght]

i just had the complete gen3 system put on my 01 by valaya racing. this thing stops like no other. not even my vet with a BBK compared. don't mess with BBKs get the gen3 system. + replacement parts are cheaper and widely available. valaya is at 408-297-1990 or [email protected] i dont have a G meter but i would put my car up against anything else if someone has one local

if you really care about ABS valaya can add it to your car on top of the gen3 system. get the color you want @ the price you want upgrade the brakes next. reason i say color; no aftermarket paint job will last like the stock paint. reason i say price, 99's are going for way less then 01-02s you can get your gen3 kit + abs for less then the price difference.

 

[bluestreak]

i just had the complete gen3 system put on my 01 by valaya racing. this thing stops like no other. not even my vet with a BBK compared. don't mess with BBKs get the gen3 system. + replacement parts are cheaper and widely available. valaya is at 408-297-1990 or [email protected] i dont have a G meter but i would put my car up against anything else if someone has one local

if you really care about ABS valaya can add it to your car on top of the gen3 system. get the color you want @ the price you want upgrade the brakes next. reason i say color; no aftermarket paint job will last like the stock paint. reason i say price, 99's are going for way less then 01-02s you can get your gen3 kit + abs for less then the price difference.

How much for the install? How much would you say it cost turnkey?

 

[KepRght]

i think its 4k for brakes and 2k + labor? to add abs. dont quote me though, call them.

basicly your going to pay a couple $k over a BBK or Gen3 upgrade price.

valaya will be retrofitting your pre-abs car with all of the 01-02 abs parts, + adding gen3 parts to make everything perfect. if you source all of the abs parts yourself from wrecked cars it might be cheaper.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

I roadraced my 2000 Viper for years, no ABS. I did put on the Stoptech Big Break system, 14.2" rotors on the front 13" on the rear, 4 piston calibers and SS lines. No master cylinder or proportioning valve needed, and high temp brake fluid. One of the tricks is picking the correct pad. You need a "progressive" brake pad rather then one that is "grippy". I use Brakeman 3 pads, the rest is feel. I flatspotted a couple of times but my worst flat spot was in an '02 with ABS.

 

[Gray Ghost]

I roadrace my '04 Corvette in Competition Mode with Active Handling turned off. I think its best to develop a good feel for the cars handling characteristics and the track, and not rely so much on the cars computer to correct for driver "bad habits". Sometimes the ABS may engage in a manner not expected by the driver, which leads to unpredictable results.

 

[CCBrian]

Prior to my Comp Coupe I had a Panoz GTS. I think not having the ABS made me a better driver...you have to learn to actually stop and control the car. Don't get me wrong, ABS is awesome but not having it would not stop me from buying a car. I drive just fine without it.