Roe blower seized; time for Turbos???

[GTSnake]

So now after only 10k miles my roe seized. I'm wondering if it's worth getting it rebuilt and who knows how much longer it will last until it dies again. Or is it better just to go turbo and hopefully have a more reliable system?

With turbos the only moving part are the turbines so it should be more reliable right?

 

[Camfab]

If your looking for an excuse to upgrade, I say go for it. The truth of the matter is that turbo's have their own set of issues, and their are no guarantees of reliability like OEM parts. I would fix the issue and enjoy your driving season.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

It would be interesting to see reliability figures for blowers vs. twin turbos. (fat chance). But, I would bet on the blowers since they don't have to deal with exhaust gas temperatures.

 

[SylvanSRT]

have you even found out if Roe may cover the repair under some sort of warranty or workmanship issue?

 

[RedEnuf93]

SC or TT, they are completely different animals to drive.

What type of driving you like to do?

 

[Martin]

Interesting - from what I know of the Roe units is they are an AutoRotor design very similar to what Kenne Bell had on the drawing board for the Viper application. If it is a similar design, it is an excellent system and generally very robust. I've done a few cars (currently I run a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.7 V8 with a 2.2L Twin-Screw blower) with these units, and the one thing that I've noticed over and over is that they eat oil after about 5000 miles and onward. I generally have to add oil weekly, and there have been a few times where it got low enough quick enough that something bad could have happened.

The Viper units that I've looked at seemed to have an oil filler plug that required a hex key to open - which isn't the easiest way to check the oil level at each fill-up. Is there any way that your oil got too low? It definitely wouldn't be unheard of...

The good news is that the bearing assembly in the nose section is really easy and cheap to replace. For that matter, you could probably just swap out the whole nose assembly in no time at all. Shouldn't be more than a one hour job at most.

 

[big-n-italian]

WHY did your blower unit seize?

 

[Disturbed]

Your viper is a 2000...so I assume you have cast pistons and have not changed them out for a set of forged.

A turbo system is going to cost alot more money than fixing the Roe. Sean may fix you up for the cost of a new or rebuilt S/C...or you might even get lucky and get it for free under some kind of warranty.


But the cheapest TT system is going to run you 10k DIY (You may not need the ECM and fuel system because you have the Roe kit) you will be at an EASY 650rwhp. 20k installed (yes, w/fuel system and AEM)And make 1,200rwhp...(but you still have to build the motor...psst...send it to proline)

If I had the money to blow, TT all the way. But, if I wasn't ready for a big build I'd just leave it N/A until I could afford it. That's what I've done with my little red car. Afew supporting mods for when the TT system goes on.

 

[JUCD VPR]

DEFINATELY get a TT.........and sell me the seized charger for SUPER CHEAP!

 

[Martin]

These twin-screw autorotor type blowers are nearly bullet-proof, and pretty easy to fix. The Kenne Bell unit I've got on my Jeep has seven years and over 100,000 hard miles on it and it still works like new. It does eat oil like crazy, but from what I've seen that's just the nature of the beast. Just check it and fill 'er up every time I get gas and it's run like a charm.

If Jim Bell over at Kenne Bell had gone through with his plans to CARB certify the Viper blower he was testing, I certainly would have been either a beta tester or first installer. i just love the way the twin-screw blowers perform - it's almost like driving a normally aspirated car with an extra 200 HP added right on to the top of the usual power curve. Just can't beat it for simplicity and all around fun factor.

Personally, i wouldn't touch a twin-turbo setup. These cars are already wild enough for me in my old age and I sure don't need the complexity of a TT setup. Way too hot for me to handle safely!

 

[JUCD VPR]

GTSnake vbmenu_register("postmenu_2405938", true); ~ PM SENT!

 

[Camfab]

These twin-screw autorotor type blowers are nearly bullet-proof, and pretty easy to fix. The Kenne Bell unit I've got on my Jeep has seven years and over 100,000 hard miles on it and it still works like new. It does eat oil like crazy, but from what I've seen that's just the nature of the beast. Just check it and fill 'er up every time I get gas and it's run like a charm.

If Jim Bell over at Kenne Bell had gone through with his plans to CARB certify the Viper blower he was testing, I certainly would have been either a beta tester or first installer. i just love the way the twin-screw blowers perform - it's almost like driving a normally aspirated car with an extra 200 HP added right on to the top of the usual power curve. Just can't beat it for simplicity and all around fun factor.

Personally, i wouldn't touch a twin-turbo setup. These cars are already wild enough for me in my old age and I sure don't need the complexity of a TT setup. Way too hot for me to handle safely!

I called Kenne Bell about a year ago after cruising the CARB site and noticing that Kenne Bell already had an E.O. # for the Viper. The tech was like, " there is no demand for these from Viper owners so we decided not to build them". I've heard this senario so many times that it makes me laugh. I would buy a Kenne Bell unit in a heartbeat if it were produced. Maybe a bunch of guys need to start calling Kenne Bell and asking for it, I think I will call them tomorrow.

 

[GTSnake]

Your viper is a 2000...so I assume you have cast pistons and have not changed them out for a set of forged.

Nope, it's a '97. And it has the engine completely rebuilt with JE pistons, Oliver rods and blue printed. It's basically all ready for TT...

The Viper units that I've looked at seemed to have an oil filler plug that required a hex key to open - which isn't the easiest way to check the oil level at each fill-up. Is there any way that your oil got too low? It definitely wouldn't be unheard of...

I've never checked the oil. Roe systems aren't meant to be topped off with oil. They're supposed to be good for 20k-30k miles (?) That's why they're sealed.

 

[99 R/T 10]

I've never checked the oil. Roe systems aren't meant to be topped off with oil. They're supposed to be good for 20k-30k miles (?) That's why they're sealed.

This is probably why your S/C failed. I believe the oil should be checked at every oil change you do on the car(about 3000 miles). If you never checked it, I would bet that it's dry and it failed.

 

[plumcrazy]

i know of a few roe's that needed oil periodically

 

[Mccarlin]

I've never checked the oil. Roe systems aren't meant to be topped off with oil. They're supposed to be good for 20k-30k miles (?) That's why they're sealed.

Thats exactly why your blower seized up. I just checked my blower after 2K miles and it was indeed low and needed to be topped off, not low enough to cause damage but still under the recommended line.
Don't you see some small amounts of oil leaking from the vent screw on top of the snout? I know i have very little every time i take the car out and that stuff adds up over time and would make sense that the blower is getting low of oil.

I would get it fixed and just check the oil regularly and it should last you longer than the life of the car.

 

[Bobpantax]

From Sean's web site FAQ section:


What kind of maintenance does the Supercharger add?Next to none. The oil in the unit does not come from the engine oiling system, which gets contaminated from blowby and the combustion process. Therefore, the compressor oil stays cleaner and in better condition longer. We suggest the case oil level be checked at each engine oil change. The oil color will be the first indication that a change is due, which should be at approximately 50,000 miles.

It clearly states that the supercharger oil should be checked at each oil change. An oil change should be made at 3000 miles, or less, if the car is frequently driven hard.

 

[Disturbed]

Your ready for turbo's...if you have the $ GO FOR IT!

If you lived in FL, I'd come over and help you install the turbo system.

 

[Disturbed]

Do you plan on doing the install yourself?

As far as tubo systems I'd go with

UGR

or

CPE ( http://www.viperalley.com/forum/viper-discussions-gen-i/56255-how-much-interest-side.html )

They both have better prices than Heffner or Hennessy.

 

[JohnnyBravo]

I wouldn't throw away the blower just because it has an issue. I believe Kenny (Sun Ra Kat) had issues with his blower caused by overspinning it (12 lb. upper pulley + Weaver crank pulley) and sent it off for a complete remanufacture (including new bearings) for $850.

I don't think I'd use an $850 repair as an excuse to blow $20,000-$30,000 on twin turbos. If it were me, I'd just have the blower rebuilt and make sure to check the oil level a little more often. Much cheaper solution to get you back on the road and keep you on the road, in my opinion.

 

[GreenWorm]

I wouldn't throw away the blower just because it has an issue. I believe Kenny (Sun Ra Kat) had issues with his blower caused by overspinning it (12 lb. upper pulley + Weaver crank pulley) and sent it off for a complete remanufacture (including new bearings) for $850.

I don't think I'd use an $850 repair as an excuse to blow $20,000-$30,000 on twin turbos. If it were me, I'd just have the blower rebuilt and make sure to check the oil level a little more often. Much cheaper solution to get you back on the road and keep you on the road, in my opinion.

+1 This is what I would do in your case, as it is the most reasonable thing to do. Any way you go, maintence is the key to survival.

 

[JUCD VPR]

If the seize messed up the compressor and drive it could cost in the 2800 range to replace.

 

[Got Venom]

GTS Snake,

There is a little brass colored blowby nut right near the pully on top. You must have seen this showing oily residue from time to time. I was told that if the unit is too filled, it will continue to blow off the excess, until it reaches the correct level. But it might have blown too much out, but in any case, I have always checked the level on a monthly basis. I even added a little, but then noticed a lot more residue coming out of the brass blow by nut. So it definitely needs to be monitored.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

From the Roe Install Manual (Roe Racing Supercharger Installation Instructions (Gen2 –Run7))


MAINTENANCE:

- Check the belt at each oil change.
- Check the Supercharger oil level at each oil change.
- Inspect the Supercharger oil at 15,000 miles and consider changing it. If it is not dark, continue to run it and check it at regular intervals.
- If changing the Supercharger oil, use synthetic multi-weight engine oil and fill to between the two dipstick marks. DO NOT OVERFILL AS SEAL DAMAGE WILL RESULT.

 

[GTSnake]

From Sean's web site FAQ section:


What kind of maintenance does the Supercharger add?Next to none. The oil in the unit does not come from the engine oiling system, which gets contaminated from blowby and the combustion process. Therefore, the compressor oil stays cleaner and in better condition longer. We suggest the case oil level be checked at each engine oil change. The oil color will be the first indication that a change is due, which should be at approximately 50,000 miles.

It clearly states that the supercharger oil should be checked at each oil change. An oil change should be made at 3000 miles, or less, if the car is frequently driven hard.

I'm not sure how everyone else reads that but the way it looks to me is that the "suggested" procedure is to check the oil level. That doesn't say anything about oil consumption or topping off to replace low oil. If it should be changed at 50,000 miles that means there should still be oil in there to change. If a catastrophic failure could result when oil is consumed it should read "oil levels MUST be checked periodically due to the possibility of oil consumption".

BTW, I've had very little oil coming from the vent. There was some initially and not even enough to wipe off. But since then nothing.

I spoke to Sean and I'm going to have to take the thing out and see what exactly is the failure mode. Then I may have to send it to Nebraska or Kansas or somewhere to get it repaired.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

I agree that the instructions do not make it clear that oil may be consumed. I wonder where that oil is going? I see a tiny amount of residue coming out of the vent, but not much. The install instructions tell you to check after you run the SC for the first time. And then check it with each oil change. I put about one cup in mine after about 400 miles. It's possible it leaked in shipment, as that was the first time I checked it.

 

[Martin]

With the Kenne Bell supercharger I have on my Grand Cherokee, I'm not sure where the oil is leaking because I don't see it coming from any of the exterior areas. I did pull the supercharger off the car last year, and there was an oily residue inside the manifold ports. I'm guessing that the seals to the compressor shafts leak a little bit. These things don't hold a lot of oil - so the level can get low fairly quickly. Mine has basically been slowly leaking ever since I installed it, and the guys at Kenne Bell said it wasn't uncommon and it shouldn't be a problem as long as the oil level was checked every few months. They were more concerned about customers overfilling the oil resevoir because that can lead to failure really quick.

GTSnake - have you popped the plug on yours to see where the oil level is? After all this talk, it would be interesting to see if the oil is even a factor.

 

[EllowViper]

I just checked mine as it's sitting on the bench awaiting install. The big hex plug on top is easy to remove yet there are no "dipstick" indicators that I can see (I assumed it would be similar to my SuperCoupe blower that had an acutal dip stick attacned to the plug). There is a machining mark a half inch or so below the thread that would appear to be a logical oil fill line, but if you sight that line with the input shaft and vent tube, its really well above it and would seem to be at the "overfill" level IMO. The smaller angled hex head plug I removed too but that simply appears to be another oil fill or something. No oil level indicators there as well. The unit was "just serviced" according to the tuner, yet when I peer into the top plug, the oil is WAAAAAYYYYY down inside. I can see it splashing around when I turn the pully by hand. ROE is sending me the install books so I'll take a look inside there for clarification (if none is posted here).

 

[Martin]

It's bizarre that there's no dipstick - I noticed on the Viper blowers that they had a hex bolt where the oil fill hole is, but it would seem logical that there would be a dipstick. On mine, there's a plastic screw-in plug with a dipstick attached.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

You get a "dipstick" with the Roe SC that screws into the opening where the 6mm hex plug comes out. The dipstick has two marks, and the oil level should be between these two marks. Ellow, If you don't have one, I'm sure Roe can send you one.