Assuming for a minute that for the weekend warrior, the 2008 or 2009 ACR is probably the best Viper to race and have fun with; however, putting that aside, for an intermidiate driver, which of these two would you suggest for the track, a RT/10 or Gen III? These are the only two choices.
RT/10 vs Gen III
- Thread starter Viper 55
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red98RT10
Enthusiast
As much as I love the Gen2, I think the Gen 3 is probably the far better choice for the track. The difference in technology between the two is significant.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Many tracks are changing safety requirements that disallow your helmeted head from sticking above the windshield and sport bar. Unless your torso height is "challenged" you probably have to lower the seat and/or install a racing seat. Further, tracks may want a hardtop installed, or if not, additional arm restraints so your hands cannot extend beyond the driver's compartment. Lastly, although you may not be talking about a Gen1 with sidepipes, I can add that any exhaust modification will be louder (that's OK) but it is aimed trackside where the noise police will be. You are more likely to be tagged as too loud with a sidepipe car than a rear exhaust car.
For the intermediate, but frequent track rat, I would suggest a Gen 2 GTS. Get a roof, it makes things so much simpler. It's cheaper to start and probably cheaper to maintain. Upgrade parts are probably cheaper. It's not the upfront cost alone, it's the tires, brake parts, exhaust upgrades, a few replacement bodywork parts, etc, etc. The fun factor is driving at 10/10ths in whatever you sit in. A Gen 3 would be faster, but perhaps not necessarily more fun. IMHO
For the intermediate, but frequent track rat, I would suggest a Gen 2 GTS. Get a roof, it makes things so much simpler. It's cheaper to start and probably cheaper to maintain. Upgrade parts are probably cheaper. It's not the upfront cost alone, it's the tires, brake parts, exhaust upgrades, a few replacement bodywork parts, etc, etc. The fun factor is driving at 10/10ths in whatever you sit in. A Gen 3 would be faster, but perhaps not necessarily more fun. IMHO
Tom - Interesting comments. I was also told by a very experienced driver who I respect, that the Gen 2 handles better then the Gen 3 on the track due to the suspension and some other features. Speed for me is not the goal but to increase my driving ability.
I'm 5'8" and do not extend past the sport bar; however, I have been thinking about getting a roll bar if I decide on the RT/10. If I decide on the RT/10, should I consider converting the brakes over to Brembo? I see that they sell a kit for the conversion.
I'm 5'8" and do not extend past the sport bar; however, I have been thinking about getting a roll bar if I decide on the RT/10. If I decide on the RT/10, should I consider converting the brakes over to Brembo? I see that they sell a kit for the conversion.
VIPER GTSR 91
Enthusiast
StopTech big brake system, at least up front. Much cheaper too than Brembo.
I'd say a GenIII GTS would be better suited for the track...stiffer, better brakes, no screwing around with hardtop/soft top requirements that seem to vary by track. I have no issues with my RT/10 on the track and I have a blast with it on the track. I fit comfortably in it with a lowered seat, helmet and hard top. Based on the upgrades I've done, my HP/TQ levels are higher than a stock GenIII so from a performance point, for me anyway, my RT/10 is more than adequate but I as I get better on the track I can see where the stiffness of a GTS alone makes a difference. Then again, there are awesome GenI drivers like Tator that can run circles around GenIII's...at some point the driver plays an important role in it all.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Well, I couldn't help but modify my Gen 1, so at least in AX events, I can and have outperformed Gen 2 and Gen 3 cars. It goes back to expenses- if you want to change springs, shocks, etc, is it cheaper on a Gen 2 or 3? Dunno, but guessing Gen 2.
The broomstick rule, I find, varies greatly by series and tracks. Lime Rock has the stick rule, but it also depends on whether the event is a controlled speed driving school or a "red group can run without instructor" driving school. At Lime Rock, it depends also if it is the Corvair Club event (don't care as long as you don't punt a Corvair from behind) or the Porsche club (vee vill make sure you get clobbered by dee rulze!) As you can tell, I have received conflicting advice, even at the same track.
With a roll bar, I think your safety issues are solved but you still might need arm restraints (in case of roll-over).
Aaaack! Brakes! Yes, Gen 1 and 2 brakes are poor because the rear calipers are too small! Upgrading the fronts is the wrong direction. In fact, if you get the "upgraded" Stoptech front brake kit, you really get calipers with smaller pistons. The biggest improvement is getting enough rear brake capability to balance with what you have in the front. Ta-da: like the 40mm rear brake calipers. Spend 20% of the "4-wheel big-brake kit" cost and get 99% of the benefit. (sorry, can't make them look as good, but braking data shows they perform!)
Read up here: (you must click every tab on the left!!)
40mmBrakes Home
and then read here:
StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades
Keep in mind that Stoptech's discussion assumes the OEM rear brakes are at least "big enough" while the OEM Viper rear brakes aren't. You can prove this by removing the proportioning valve in any other car and the rear wheels will lock first; try it in a Viper and the rear wheels still won't lock up. PM me with any questions about this.
eucharistos
Enthusiast
2001 & 2002 answer the same, yes?
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
No, sorry, guys. Only on pre-ABS cars.
TexasPettey
Enthusiast
I think that the Gen3 will be cheaper to run faster times. The reason is that you have good brakes and suspension to start with. You also can get one with a 7yr/100K warranty in case something goes wrong.
The newest RT/10 is 7 years old, and the RT/10 you buy is probably getting close to 10 years old. Things just get old and need attention, especially when you push the car hard. Not that it's anything major, but minor leaks/etc are a PITA when you're rushing to get ready for a track weekend. Aftermarket parts are likely to get more expensive on the Gen1/Gen2 cars first, as the serious track folks are on the Gen3/Gen4 platforms.
You can upgrade the suspension & brakes of a Gen1/Gen2 to get close to a Gen3. However, there's no substitute for ABS.
Driving a ******* car on the track is a blast. Having a good hard top gives you the best of both worlds. A roll bar is probably a must have for any car. Even a hard top has limited protection in a serious rollover. The roll bars for the RT/10's I've seen look pretty good. Most folks who don't know better think mine is stock.
A Gen1/Gen2 looks **** and mean. They are visceral and everyone knows it. However, learning on them is difficult. The miatas love to pass new drivers in Gen1/Gen2 Vipers. You get respect from just about everyone when you learn to drive the car well.
I love my Gen1. It's been modded and holds its own on the track, against much younger cars. If I had to do it again, I'd find a 2001 RT/10 with some mods already done and drive the heck out of it. The engineering on a Gen3 is great, but the styling is far too timid for me.
BTW, don't hit anything. I can't imagine that any generation of Viper is reasonable to have body work done on.
The newest RT/10 is 7 years old, and the RT/10 you buy is probably getting close to 10 years old. Things just get old and need attention, especially when you push the car hard. Not that it's anything major, but minor leaks/etc are a PITA when you're rushing to get ready for a track weekend. Aftermarket parts are likely to get more expensive on the Gen1/Gen2 cars first, as the serious track folks are on the Gen3/Gen4 platforms.
You can upgrade the suspension & brakes of a Gen1/Gen2 to get close to a Gen3. However, there's no substitute for ABS.
Driving a ******* car on the track is a blast. Having a good hard top gives you the best of both worlds. A roll bar is probably a must have for any car. Even a hard top has limited protection in a serious rollover. The roll bars for the RT/10's I've seen look pretty good. Most folks who don't know better think mine is stock.
A Gen1/Gen2 looks **** and mean. They are visceral and everyone knows it. However, learning on them is difficult. The miatas love to pass new drivers in Gen1/Gen2 Vipers. You get respect from just about everyone when you learn to drive the car well.
I love my Gen1. It's been modded and holds its own on the track, against much younger cars. If I had to do it again, I'd find a 2001 RT/10 with some mods already done and drive the heck out of it. The engineering on a Gen3 is great, but the styling is far too timid for me.
BTW, don't hit anything. I can't imagine that any generation of Viper is reasonable to have body work done on.
Thanks Men, good feed back.
I've decided to do some mods on my Gen 2, RT/10 and try my luck at the track. I have 400 miles on the ACR and for now, will keep it under wraps.
Planned mods, roll bar and I'm looking at the Brembo Super Sport upgrade system for Gen 2's. Waiting for pricing. Would have looked at Tom's but sounds like only for pre ABS Vipers. Any other suggestion?
I've decided to do some mods on my Gen 2, RT/10 and try my luck at the track. I have 400 miles on the ACR and for now, will keep it under wraps.
Planned mods, roll bar and I'm looking at the Brembo Super Sport upgrade system for Gen 2's. Waiting for pricing. Would have looked at Tom's but sounds like only for pre ABS Vipers. Any other suggestion?
TexasPettey
Enthusiast
I would think your best bet is Dave's SRT fronts, if price is a factor. With an ABS Gen2, there's not much need to upgrade your rears.
The Gen 2 that I would be racing is a 2000 RT/10. Understand that the 2000 does not have ABS (were first introduced 2001). That being the case, I understand that the rear brakes are not good for racing on the 2000. It was suggested that the front calipers be transferred to the rear and new Brembo's installed in front.
I would like to get some better brakes. Anyone I can call or contact? Thanks
I would like to get some better brakes. Anyone I can call or contact? Thanks
TexasPettey
Enthusiast
If you want the best price/performance, do Tom's rear & Dave's SRT fronts. Tom's bolt right on without cutting, which you'll have to do to move your fronts to the rear. Dave's kit bolts the SRT front calipers right on with the adapters. You could easily do that full setup for under $2K total cost. I got a good deal on a set of SRT calipers and rotors. My total cost was about $1800.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
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