SRT Track Limitations

[GR8_ASP]

Had a Viper gathering this weekend in Michigan. We were discussing plans for an outing at Gingerman (race track). The outing includes driver instruction (instructors in car, etc.). The essence of my concern is we were told that SRTs would be allowed on the track only under certain conditions. The primary condition is that vehicle lap time had to be above a specified limit (slower than Gen I). Any laps below that target and you would be black flagged. Only way out is to have an approved roll cage installed. A hard top (even though one does not exist yet) is not considered acceptable.

My question is this. Can a product be developed that will either replace or coexist with the roll hoops that will provide roll-over capability on par with the RT/10 so that we can track these cars? I do not mean a full competition roll cage, as would be required for timed racing, but just adequate to allow use at drag strips and road courses for sporting or instructional purposes. I am interested in enjoying the SRT but am not interested in destroying the car or making it so that it cannot be driven normally. Something that would prevent normal convertible top use would not be acceptable.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

more reason to build a COUPE!!!!!

 

[GR8_ASP]

A coupe does not help the people that spent 80-90k on the SRT! A solution for current cars is necessary.

 

[Hoosier Daddy]

A coupe does not help the people that spent 80-90k on the SRT! A solution for current cars is necessary.

Nobody bent your arm to buy a convertible. This revelation is not new, most tracks stopped letting the cobra replicas attend also.

 

[Daffy Duck Viper]

No doubt some company/someone is working on this. Everything comes to the Viper, just a matter of time. One of the things that's great about such a desirable exotic...with a huge following!

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[Janni]

I believe Archer Racing is working on a legal roll bar that will be legal at ViperDays and most other venues that require a roll bar. The stock hoops are not structural enough to provide true rollover protection, if i remember correctly- so there wil have to be other mounting points for this new bar system.

 

[luc]

Ron,

I'm sure that a good race shop can custom manufacture a 4pts roll bar,but having the bar high enough to be legal and protect your head while still being able to close the top is may be impossible.
Hoosier Daddy is 100% right and I think that it is "funny" that the SRT,with increased performance compared to the GTS or RT,cannot legally be used on a track.
After all,the only place you can really use 100%of the peformance of a GTS or RT (without even talking of the SRT),is on a track,not on the street.

 

[DEVILDOG]

You all did not listen. The Dodge/PVO boys told us the SRT was not for racing. I believe proof of this exist on this board with rear ends failing during medium range street driving. The SRT-10 is for the Mercedes crowd to go to the Country Club and cruise the boulevard. Like they said over and over if you want to race then just shell out another $100K to $125K now to buy a Comp Coupe. That way just $200K gets you a nice street convertible and a real race car. What a deal. With that great plan who needs a street/track coupe? Stupid me...I think I'll just keep my modded GTS that kicks SRT rear ends...oops forgot they don't need kicked they are already falling out of the car.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Putting in a roll bar to me wouldn't be an option. Who wants to hack up their car so they can enjoy its full potential on a race track. Why not just sign a waiver?

 

[GR8_ASP]

A few more comments to help understand the issue as I see it. The roll hoops on most other "sports" cars provide some level of rollover protection. That includes the Mercedes sports cars. Some of these other cars even have active roll hoops that extend only in the event of a rollover. If the SRT had rollover protection similar to those vehicles, or even similar to the RT/10, this may have been a non-issue.

To those that say the SRT was made for the street only I say that would be the ST. The SRT (street and RACING technology) should be able to compete at something without heavy modification. Plus, back in January 2002 when we put our money down on these fine machines, nobody stated that the roll hoops were purely cosmetic and the SRT could not be tracked similar to RT/10's and GTS's. In fact I remember talk of how hard tops would allow track use. But now we find that hard top or no hard top you cannot track a SRT without a roll bar. Even at your local drag strip.

I can see it now. Next Viper Invitational provides a track experience only for the GTS and RT/10 crowd. How will that go over?

 

[Hoosier Daddy]

I can see it now. Next Viper Invitational provides a track experience only for the GTS and RT/10 crowd. How will that go over?

Like a fart in church, but then again most owners at these VOI events are the polishing crowd who are even afraid of a stone chip or rain.

 

[luc]

Ron,

The problem is that the SRT is a convertible.
The GTS is a Coupe and the RT is a Targa Top.
Racing/open-tracking a convertible require an aftermarket roll bar/cage.
What do Viper Days say about it?

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

There was a thread about the SRT at viperdays awhile ago, I seem to recall that you need a cage.

Why would they not go the extra mile and have the car come complete with a functional integrated roll cage that were also the roll hoops? Seems lame to me.

 

[SylvanSRT]

previous thread on this "viperdays yes or no?" the official ruling from official chief steward is roll bar or hardtop.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

This is the EXACT reason I cancelled my SRT, I dunno what Dodge's mentality is by not offering a street GTS but offering a CC, it's BS and the boys at PVO are morons. You hear me Dodge you're idiots that's why I sold my stock also because of the yo-yos running the company.

 

[SylvanSRT]

Wow thats a bit harsh the SRT-10 is one hell of a car and lays waste to many an exotic and supercar, and for the most part for 40-100K less. Granted the car has its shortcomings they all do, but im am just guessing that the CC is part and parcel in the develpment of a Coupe. I surely dont know the reasoning why these bars have little or NO rollover protection, quite foolish. A lot of cars do have these fixed bars or the passive type that deploy when needed, but as someone who spends time on the track road course or drag know, most even semi-serious events require real rollover protection! For this reason alone I put a rollbar in my miata. I have run many track days and when I say what type of car, they ask if there is a rollbar on the car. There are many venues where these cars will be allowed to run abeit with some limitations, some without. Let us not forget what a serious instrument the SRT-10 is, but someone must have at DC. The worst thing is I hate to modify the vehicle in the manner that it will probably take to add a rollbar! I guess this will certianlly limit the attendance to such events as viper days for future SRT-10 owners not willing to ****** their cars. To add the rollbar to my Miata was almost heartbreaking to knowing what was being done to my car, even though i knew most could be fixed easily w/ only a few being permanent. That was w/ my 15K miataa dont know if i can go there w/ the SRT.
I just wish this car had more of the R & T in the SRT!

 

[FrankBarba]

hey if you want to run on the track & you have an SRT you can always rent my Comp Coupe or RT/10. Save your car.

 

[SylvanSRT]

Whats the hourly rate and does it include delv.? Is it an automatic?,no, thats ok I'm a quik learner!

 

[SoCal Rebell]

I am by NO means criticizing the SRT, I'm criticizing Dodge for their narrow mindedness and short sightedness. I had a debate with a high ranking moderator on this board 5-6 months ago about the track issue with this car and was given all kinds of promises of how the car will "have a hardtop" and tracks all over the country will let the cars run with the hoops, yeah right.

HEMIDAYTNA, thanks but PMUM offered to let me use his CC at WSIR during OTC, it is a magnificent car.

 

[Newport Viper]

Why would a RT/10 be more "legal"? I thought the roll hoop had no protection in it?

 

[jwwiii]

Yo Debbildawg;

Dawg, you's just gotta see a bush Doctor about that sunburned neck you's got. Dang, that neck has gotta hurt sumpn' awful!

Heck, I has owned 2 of dem ol' RT-10's, and I wudn't give up my SRT for ether of dem thangs! Ya see, I's can put up the vert' top real quick-like in that fancy SRT! If'ns I don't, my old ladies breastises start foldin' back over her eyes and her mazkarara gets all smugged up sumpin' fearce... it's down right nasty! Her Tammy Faye thang is runed for tha night. I jes can't deal wit da bitchin' and mownin!

Howzever, I goes fazter, stops quicker, korners beter, and my twopay stays on when I drag the rice boyz in tha SRT! It mite looks mo' fruity, but I is compretly satrisfyed with all 500 ponies she's packin'. If her rear end's loose, dat would be a benifit (if ya know what I mean).

Thangs are defnitly gettin' fruity don't ya thank? I gotta go now cause Brown jes brought my Camo for my duck boat. Maybee it'll fit on the SRT! I promis ta keep ya posted on that.

I feel yous envy and pain brother.

Jimmer

 

[knuk]

A good reason to never visit the back hills of Iowa

 

[Y2K10 SRT#39]

Iowa??? Hills??
Sorry...

 

[GTS Dean]

A few more comments to help understand the issue as I see it. The roll hoops on most other "sports" cars provide some level of rollover protection. That includes the Mercedes sports cars. Some of these other cars even have active roll hoops that extend only in the event of a rollover. If the SRT had rollover protection similar to those vehicles, or even similar to the RT/10, this may have been a non-issue.

To those that say the SRT was made for the street only I say that would be the ST. The SRT (street and RACING technology) should be able to compete at something without heavy modification. Plus, back in January 2002 when we put our money down on these fine machines, nobody stated that the roll hoops were purely cosmetic and the SRT could not be tracked similar to RT/10's and GTS's. In fact I remember talk of how hard tops would allow track use. But now we find that hard top or no hard top you cannot track a SRT without a roll bar. Even at your local drag strip.

I can see it now. Next Viper Invitational provides a track experience only for the GTS and RT/10 crowd. How will that go over?

I find it EXTREMELY troubling that Viper Days has apparently decided that simply removing the stock Sport Hoops (which is VERY easy to do) and installing a taller, purpose-built hoop assembly (with diagonals) in the stock locations is inadequate to allow track use. The stockers simply *cannot* be more than about 3/4" taller, or they would interfere with the convertible top when it's up. Many sanctioning bodies require that a "legal" roll bar for a convertible/targa has to extend 2" above the driver's helmet. That equals about 3.5" over your bare head when seated.

There HAS to be some level of reason and common sense prevail here. For track situations, we need to be able to install and remove a simple, aftermarket bar in the stock locations - even if more gussetting is required in the attachment pockets.

 

[Janni]

Dean,
I am not sure of the final design. I too would like to see the stock locations utilized, and use additional bracing / supports. I'll only do this if I can retain use of the top (obviously), but also if it provides true rollover protection. i'll see if I can get some time with Archer's to see how their design is progressing. I may have misstated my intent - I do know that you cannot just bolt a taller hoop to the stock locations without additional supports / bracing, but that may very well be the locations used...

 

[SRTRICK]

Autoform is working on a bar as well as Archer. Autoforms will use both the frame mounting positions where the style bars are located as well as a side plate position next to the outboard position of the seat. I e-mailed them some photos of the Lotus Elise system that incorporates a removable diagonal bar that anchors in the passenger side footwell, but they felt owners would not want to bother to install that portion for track use. (I disagree with that assessment, particularly because it could then possibly work without the sideplate portions.)
Archer was planning on installing their bar on a Viper that was scheduled for crushing so they could see what the effect of the bar really is, but I don't know if that has happened yet.
Illinois regions solution for stock SRTs at Gingerman is that a full stock car will be black flagged if times drop below 1:40, while a car with five or six point harnesses will be allowed to run 1:37 before being stopped. Lower than that will require a rollbar such as that from Archer or Auroform. Tom Shapiro, the competition director for the IL VCA feels that adding the hardtop alone does little to help the rollover protection, and adds it's own possibility of sliding off and decapitating the driver in a hard impact, an assessment that others and I agree with.
Regarding the height of the bar, remember that additional clearance can be gained by lowering the stock seats rather than just raising the bar, so there are some possibilities for taller drivers there as well.

 

[slaughterj]

Regarding the height of the bar, remember that additional clearance can be gained by lowering the stock seats rather than just raising the bar, so there are some possibilities for taller drivers there as well.

Seems that would be more of a possibility for shorter drivers than taller, the latter of which would need the added space, while the former could use the added space for sufficient clearance...

 

[SRTRICK]

Huh? Lowering the seats creates more head clearance, how would that help short drivers more than tall ones? What you are going for is 2" of clearance between the drivers helmet and a line drawn between the top of the rollbar and the windshield header. If the amount of clearance that can be created by raising the height of the rollbar is limited by the clearance to the convert. top, then added clearance can be created by lowering the seats. I fail to see how this would help short drivers more than tall ones? Please explain this to me.
Thanks in advance, Rick

 

[Bob Pommer]

May I suggest an alternate strategy.... If you know you are cooking off laps below the allowed times, and you know you are smoking them by a couple of seconds. When you get on the last straight, get on the binders right before the finish and keep your times above the allowed time... partially just to show off, but at the end of the day you can fly around the rest of the track with reckless abandon and still know that you could be faster.

Aside from that I agree, I am very surprised that they did not make the roll hoops more functional. I talked to someone who said that they windshield is about the only roll over protection you get.

But then again... "What?...Do you want to live forever or something?..."

 

[GTS Dean]

I looked inside the soft top and there appears to be maybe 2 - 3 in. of space between the stock sport hoops and the top.
Jim

I don't own one yet, but I sat in one recently and was only able to stick an index finger between the top and hoop to the second joint. That is one area that I examined very closely. Are you sure you're not measuring from the top of the headrest?