Sweden & Superchargers

[Sean Roe]

Hi Everyone,

Good news from the Arctic circle! My fingers have thawed and I'm now able to type again!

The trip to Autorotor's facility in Nacka / Stockholm, Sweden was a success.

I arrived in Stockholm on a Monday morning at 7:30 am after leaving Jacksonville, FL at 10:30 am Sunday (6 hour time change from EST, couldn't sleep on the plane). Took the bullet train into the city (the airport is well outside of town) then stood in the cold wind while waiting on a taxi for about 20 minutes (16 degrees F, which is really cold to a Floridian). Arrived at Autorotor's facility at about 10:30 am and met some of the engineers who were to work on the project. After a cup (or two)of coffee, I started installing the Supercharger on a stock (smooth tubes and filters only) Silver '99 GTS with sharp custom interior. Had lunch (couldn't read the menu) and finished the installation at about 5 pm (feeling pretty wiped out). Got a ride to the hotel and got some rest.

Tuesday morning, back into Autorotor at 7:30 where I had more in depth conversations with the electrical and software engineers about the project objectives. The car had been pre-wired with the development engine control module and was ready for testing to begin.

Testing and development continued Tuesday morning though Saturday evening. At times, the car looked like it was hooked up to a life support system with all the cables and laptop computers hooked up to it. Several hurdles had to be overcome along the way (electrical noise, program writing, things that were different about how the Viper PCM operated, etc). Work went on to 9:00 pm most nights and 3:00 am one night.

In between the times where they needed me with the car, I was able to make great use of the time there. The mechanical engineers took me through the plant and showed me how the Superchargers were built and tested. They have 4 Supercharger dynos and one of ours was running for a test (had a fairly flat volumetric efficiency of 93% at our boost level, which explains boost creep as a stock engine's volumetric efficiency must take a nose dive at higher RPM).

The electrical engineers spent some time with me as well. I was trained in the programming and use of the software. Further training in regard to engine management systems and injectors led to an elevated understanding on how to make full use of what we were creating for the Viper.

Finally, the result. The new Swedish built VEC2 completely eliminates any check engine light, ping or driveability issue that has come up in any of the 40+ installed Supercharger systems. It's a complete plug and play system which uses the original factory 10 way connections for the engine wiring harness (no cutting or crimping planned and looks like about a 10 minute install).

The system is programmed by slipping a smart card into a slot or by way of the software and serial cable interface. The smart card is quite slick as programming is as easy as slipping in a different card. We plan to make a few cards with different fuel and timing curves on them so owners can see which works best for their car. Further fine tuning can be done by those with the ability to utilize the software for their specific application.

The first systems are being built now. Letters will be going out to all the Supercharger owners with the information updates, price and availability. In brief, it will be about the 3rd or 4th week of January before the first ones go out to people (based on the timeframe discussed a couple weeks ago). The owners of the introductory run of Superchargers will be able to purchase them at cost. The next group of Superchargers (the finalized production run units) will go out only after all the introductory run customers have been taken care of and the new VEC2's are available for them. It will be worth the wait.

The VEC2 will also allow us to complete the process of getting emissions certification. All the test parameters can now easily be met.

Many thanks go out to all the people I met and worked with in Sweden. A special thanks also goes out to the owner of the GTS for his help and use of the car. The Swedish people are real craftsmen and an pleasure to work with.

Best regards,
Sean

PS.
If you have one of our Supercharger systems and are experiencing any of the above mentioned issues, use proper judgement and refrain from using the car if you feel that there is any risk of damage to the car. The recent reports I've read about a few cars heating up cats has me concerned. If the check engine light is on, it can mean the PCM is dumping in extra fuel, which can lead to problems if the cats overheat and are allowed to run too long. Contact us if you have any problems we may not be aware of.

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 12-30-2002 at 08:26 PM</font>

 

[VIPR GTS]

Really good information, this helps relieve some of the anxiety some of us have felt, really looking forward to my VEC2. Thanks for the update Sean.
Tony

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Sean, you are THE MAN! I am glad you were able to get this "Pesky" V-10 Fuel management situation handled! Congrats! Paolo

 

[VENM8R]

Sean Roe:
(partial quote)
"The owners of the introductory run of Superchargers will be able to purchase them at cost. The next group of Superchargers (the finalized production run units) will go out only after all the introductory run customers have been taken care of and the new VEC2's are available for them. It will be worth the wait."

Are these going to be included in the future kits at an increase in price or will the price stay the same?

 

[Sean Roe]

We're going to try and keep the price of the kit down, but it could go up to cover the new VEC2.

I'll be as glad as anybody when we get this behind us and the VEC2's in the hands of everyone. Having some cars run perfect, while others get an injector code and others get a rich mixture code or ping has been frustrating. I guess if this was easy (building a bolt on Viper Supercharger kit), someone would have done it already.

Sean

 

[RedGTS]

Welcome back Sean!

As I understand it, the VEC2 is still working in conjunction with the stock PCM--how does it differ from the VEC1 in its ability to alter fuel, timing, etc., and how does it avoid the ever present adaptive memory problem of the stock PCM changing its base settings and thereby messing everything up?

 

[GTS-R 001]

Sean,

Great to hear you are back and have accomplished all your objectives with the VEC2. With the new VEC2 will this open the door for a higher psi pulley, and thus more HP from the standard kit if wanted?

I sure hope all those who have, or are interested in your SC kits understand the amount of $$$ investment you are making in time, money, travel, and ground breaking R&D and I hope they all understand that good quality products cost money, nothing is free. So don't give the VEC2's away. I am sure I speak for a lot of us out here when I say this.

Best Regards and a prosperous New Year

Steve

 

[Cudaman]

Sean your commitment to your customer's is unmatched by any other tuner.You have taken a week of your time (time = money)and considerable investment to fly more than 1/2 around the world. Then sell it at your cost,that is unheard of! This is why your customer base is so loyal!!! Ward

 

[Greg D]

Sean, Will the VEC2's work on normally aspirated Vipers as well as the supercharged ones? If so, could we expect the VEC2 to extract even more HP from a N/A Viper than the VEC1?

Greg D
(Anxiously awaiting a Ca. smog legal supercharger kit)

 

[onerareviper]

Congrats Sean. Sounds like a winner!

1.) Do you expect even greater HP increases utilizing the VEC2 vs. the VEC1 with you S/C? Assuming the Viper had no problems with the VEC1.

2.) How did the fuel/timing curves change compared to stock?

3.) Any other intersting comments are welcome, as like many others I have been eagerly awaiting your return to hear the results!

Later

 

[Cudaman]

Sean can you use the VEC1 & 2 together? Will you leave VEC1 on zeros & use A/F lights as indicators or will VEC2 have A/F lights ? Ward

 

[RedGTS]

bump

 

[George Murray]

Interesting post:

"Swedish Viperotica #1"

Destined to become a classic!

 

[Vic]

Bump

Sean, there have been some questions raised that I would also like to hear the answers to.

Thanks, Vic

 

[Greg D]

Bump

 

[Sean Roe]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I should be pretty much back up to full speed now.

Most piggyback style engine controllers in use are basically signal conditioners. What you’re trying to do with them is alter inputs to the PCM in order to get a desired change in the way the PCM runs the engine. The Viper uses a speed density engine management strategy, which calculates engine load based on manifold air pressure. Manipulation of the MAP signal primarily affects fuel, but affects spark advance also. It does this by changing the load the PCM calculates the engine is operating at. Reducing the load calculation turns down the fuel and slightly increases spark advance, while increasing it adds fuel and decreases spark advance. At key on, barometric pressure is determined and its readings are also affected by manipulation of the MAP signal. This gives the PCM the impression that the car is at a higher or lower elevation, altering the PCM’s fuel and spark curves based on air density. Other sensors, such as throttle position, engine RPM, coolant temperature and intake air temperature provides further information the PCM needs. The PCM basically says “ if I’m at an altitude of 800’, have a manifold vacuum of 10”, am at 1,200 RPM, have 13% throttle, a coolant temperature of 195 degrees and an intake air temperature of 110, I’m going to pulse the injectors at 4.45 milliseconds and fire the coils at 38 degrees before top dead center”. The factory engineers program these curves and have spent a considerable amount of time doing so, primarily in order for the car to pass emissions. Most of the emissions tests relate to low load, closed loop operation, where the PCM is adjusting the air/fuel ratio based on input from the upstream oxygen sensors. Therefore, the cars run pretty good at low loads and you actually have quite a range to work within which is safe for the engine (you generally don’t hear of anybody damaging engines at low loads due to improper tuning).

Manipulation of the MAP signal to affect fuel and timing is very effective up to a point, and that point has a +/- tolerance that varies from car to car. The “catch” with adjusting the MAP sensor signal to compensate for a large change, such as a fuel injector size upgrade, is that you’re now giving the PCM false information. Since the main job of the PCM is to properly pulse the injectors and fire the coils, we need to give the PCM the correct information so that it makes the proper load calculations for fuel and timing. If we don’t give the PCM the correct information, it may not give us the proper curves (i.e., add unwanted timing advance across the board if we turn the injectors down by lowering the MAP sensor signal).

With our Supercharger kit, we initially used the strategy presented to us by EFI systems, where we used a stock PCM with unaltered signals and larger injectors that the PCM learned out (with adaptives) at low loads. That worked fine up to a point and on some cars. One of the downsides to this method and the other signal manipulator types of systems is that you’re still letting the PCM adjust what it thinks is an original size injector. If the PCM is programmed to make an adjustment of 2.15 ms at a particular point, it’s making that change on an injector that’s physically flowing more than stock. If the engine is in closed loop, the PCM will then see a rich mixture and pull out some number of injector pulse width to compensate. This shows up in drivability, as the car will accelerate well, then fall over when it pulls the fuel out.

The VEC2 takes a different approach than most in regard to adjusting fuel. Because we know that the factory PCM does a pretty good job at closed loop operation, we let the factory PCM send it’s injector output signals to the VEC2 (eliminating the injector codes that come up). The VEC2 processes that signal and alters it in the following ways: steady percentage offset +/-, steady millisecond offset (to compensate for the time it takes two different size injectors to open and close), change based on load and change based on RPM. We do not have to reference the stock PCM injector pulse width calculations at all, but find it works well. Generally, in low load conditions, we programmed a steady percentage and slight millisecond offset so that the larger injectors pulse at a duration that allows them to have a flow that matches the original injectors. In Sweden, this gave us the same drivability as stock, zeroes adaptive changes and puts exhaust emissions back to original during low loads (below boost and ¾ throttle). Under open loop conditions (heavy throttle / boost, where the PCM ignores the oxygen sensor signals and uses preset maps based on all the inputs), we went back to a higher injector pulse width percentage and millisecond offset (based on RPM and load) where needed to keep the air fuel ratio in line (the PCM will not adjust adaptives in open loop mode).

Timing is ******** based on RPM and vacuum / boost load maps programmed into the VEC2. Timing retard is accomplished by delaying the crankshaft position sensor signal and affects only timing. We identified the specific areas where timing has to be removed under boost loads and created curves that work well at keeping the power up across the entire RPM range (eliminating detonation).

Additional functions are being built into the VEC2 as well. Specifically, the ability to control fuel pump voltage, increasing it as the injector demand rises. Further testing is on the schedule.

Sean

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Sean;

This is a fascinating development process that I (and many others I'm sure) really appreciate you sharing with us. Your tenacity in developing and perfecting your system is terrific and one that should give those who are considering your system the confidence to make the purchase.

Perhaps a silly question but as slick as the VEC2 is, why would you not just create a completely new replacement PCM that imports all of the functionality you don't need to modify from the OEM PCM and mate that to the programming that you need to change for the supercharger?

Thanks

p.s. any pictures from Sweden you care to share?

And of the manufacturing process...

</FONT f>

 

[KenH]

The secret to success and ability to sleep at night for not only tuners, but any business is: Make a good product or service that fills a need; sell it at a fair and reasonable price; respond quickly to identify and resolve any issues that come up with the product and keep your customers and potential customers well informed of what you're doing to take care of them and business in general.

I direct an engineering team and do nothing but launch new products. People who haven't done it seldom appreciate what it takes to actually accomplish the above (though it seems pretty easy and obvious on paper). I think Sean has covered them all about as well as anyone I have seen. Kudos to him for the products and integrity that he has brought to the Viper community.

--- Ken

 

[SUN RA KAT]

Thanks, Sean for getting this up and running so quickly. It sounds like it will solve just about all of my Viper's issues with the supercharger. I'll be calling you soon about the issue that the VEC2 doesn't seem to solve - valve cover oil blow by getting in the intake manifold - but several people have already e-mailed me with their easy solutions, so it doesn't look like a big problem to fix. Looks like I'll be ready to A-Vipering I'm A-Going again very soon.

 

[Sean Roe]

An aftermarket PCM would have to be programmed to do all the "other" functions the stock controller does and it would not be emissions legal. We did not see the need to reinvent the PCM when all we were looking for was direct and specific control of fuel and spark.

Here are some pictures from the trip (Viper, Supercharger Dyno testing, machining):

You must be registered for see images

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Sean

 

[Vic]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kverges:
Sean,

Kudos to you for one of the best technical explanations I've heard. Most tuners probably refuse to share this kind of info due to fear of copycats or, even worse, their own ignorance. I have no desire to copy your work and am even more confident now than ever that you know what you are doing.

Keith

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, I wonder if Sean will sell me the VEC2 for use with my vaccum cleaner fan housing?

kverges- I hereby nominate your avatar as the most beautiful and dramatic of any in the VCA. Did you use a filter or something? Was it near sunset, to reflect some light off the body of the car? Is that the Dallas skyline? Kudos!

 

[kverges]

Sean,

Kudos to you for one of the best technical explanations I've heard. Most tuners probably refuse to share this kind of info due to fear of copycats or, even worse, their own ignorance. I have no desire to copy your work and am even more confident now than ever that you know what you are doing.

Keith

 

[Jerome Sparich]

SUN RA KAT, Kenny,

www.krankvent.com

This will solve your blow by problem. It works great on forced indution engines.

Have you or Sean heard about these?

 

[SUN RA KAT]

I asked Sean By e-mail yesterday evening for advice on the crankcase blow by problem and he sent it to me today. Other people have also sent me their fixes to this problem (thanks!), but I wanted Sean's latest advice on this issue since it's his supercharger system.

I did Sean's option #2 and drove around for about 40 miles to check it out and put a charge on my battery - I only drive my Viper about once a week due to snow these days & I'm hoping that I can drive enough so I don't have to get a battery tender this winter.

NO engine check codes - Sean's advice really works! (As usual!)

Now all I need is the VEC2.

 

[RedGTS]

So what were the options for eliminating the crankcase blowby problem?

 

[HP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jerome P. Sparich:
SUN RA KAT, Kenny,

www.krankvent.com

This will solve your blow by problem. It works great on forced indution engines.

Have you or Sean heard about these?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Months ago, I commented on this type of vent in the Performance
section. I have used them on Harley's and even though I was
unaware of the offerings for a car motor, I posted on
the possibilities. At the time I was just thinking out loud,
so it's refreshing to see that I was on track.
Generally you can get a deep discount off the listed price
if you shop around. They are a quality piece - machined billet
aluminum, with a one-way vent piston inside.

 

[Jerome Sparich]

Hugh, I have these on my VR4 and they do work.

You wouldn't happen to know which thread it was where you said something about them?

Group buys can be had for these also. The Krankvent people do this themelves.

These are a must for any forced induction car.

 

[HP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jerome P. Sparich:
Hugh, I have these on my VR4 and they do work.

You wouldn't happen to know which thread it was where you said something about them?

Group buys can be had for these also. The Krankvent people do this themelves.

These are a must for any forced induction car.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jerome it was performance upgrades - oil in intake ? 12/02/02

 

[SUN RA KAT]

Here's Sean's letter to me regarding fixing the crankcase blow by. I did option #2. Other people have sent me e-mails of there solutions of this same problem, all of which parallels Sean's solutions. The solution (option #2) is so easy that I was able to do it myself.

===============================================

"Hi Ken,
You have to have a positive crankcase ventillations system in order to
pass emissions. Therefore, we made ours similar to the factory design.
Here are the most recent instructions from our kit regarding this:

(61) Now we need to setup the crankcase breather system. You have a few
options available depending on your use of the car and the engine
condition. We found that under hard acceleration with the engine hot,
dense oil vapors (blow-by) can contaminate the intake air, which in
excess could cause detonation (with or without a supercharger). Some cars
have more blow-by than others.
Option #1: Locate the crankcase vent hose assembly with the two 90 degree
fittings and two of the black hose clamps (In the same bag from box #4).
The vent hose will make the connection from the passenger’s side valve
cover to the passenger side air intake tube fitting at the side. This
hose assembly has a restrictor placed inside one of the two 90-degree
barbed fittings. This option is intended to allow positive crankcase
ventilation. Install the hose and use the clamps at the valve cover and
intake tube fitting ends. See picture #8
Option #2: Leave the original valve cover breathers in place, which run
to the air filter housing. If you choose this option, you will need to
cap the inlet fitting on the passenger’s side air intake tube. You will
find an extra cap in the bag inside box #4. This option is beneficial to
an engine that may otherwise pump too much oil into the intake system.
Option #3: Use the push in valve cover breather found in box #4. This
requires putting a hole, slightly less than 1.25”, in the valve cover. If
you do track events or your engine has an excessive amount of blow-by
(worn rings), you should install this breather in the forward upper
corner of the drivers side valve cover (determine the proper location by
looking at the valve cover from the inside). It’s not necessary for
regular street use. You can tell your engine has a lot of blow-by if it
pushes the engine oil dipstick out of its tube under heavy acceleration.
Use the short hose and union to connect the breather to the air filter
housing hose. Block off the original valve cover breathers and air intake
fitting on the passenger’s side tube.
Additionally, if doing track events, we suggest the following:
- Use race gas.
- Put a tie wrap on the dipstick handle to hold it down.
- Consider using a second breather.

Option #2 may be best for you.

Best regards,
Sean"

===============================================

I took my Viper out again after my post here from earlier in the day and it runs better with the MSD set to 1.67 and my VEC1 set to 0/0. Any oil that got into my intake system is being sucked back into my engine and no new oil is mucking up my intake now. That's using 93 octane gas. When I had 94 octane gas I had the settings set at 1.5 for the MSD and 0/0 for the VEC1 and it ran great within the constraints of not having the VEC2 yet. I am surprised by how much difference there is in 93 to 94 octane gas as far as the MSD settings are.

 

[1TONY1]

Somebody is going to have to convince me that the crankvent deal is enough for a s/c 488ci application...maybe two or more of them but I can't see one (1) working. Is anyone using this on a viper and has checked the crankcase to see if there is in fact a vacuum on it ? I now have one k&n style screw in replacing the oil fill cap and it is working ok for drag racing and street driving. I have on hand to install, a race type crankcase ventilation kit like we used on drag cars before belt driven vacuum pumps came along. The kind that uses two sealed valve cover breathers with *******....hoses down to a one way check valve and 3/4" pipe welded into each header. Should evac fairly well and never have to worry about oil except what finds its way into the exhaust under hard driving and it should burn off.