Valve Issue - New Info - ...and Great News!

[Joseph Houss]

Hi all.

Thanks to the continued open dialogue with our friends at PVO, here’s a summary of what I’ve learned so far:

As you know, DaimlerChrysler has identified the issue and developed a quick service fix – one that was designed to be implemented by Viper SRT-10-certified Dodge dealers – those equipped with specially trained Viper SRT-10 service technicians and all the special tools required to properly service the Viper SRT-10.

Clearly, they have complete confidence in these dealers and technicians. PVO is fully comfortable, and confident, in relying on them to complete this “service action” to make each and every vehicle right for each and every customer (under warranty, with no expense to us).

Now, let’s talk about some questions that came up:

Cylinder Heads: PVO is completely secure in saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with the cylinder heads, and there is no way to justify replacing the heads as part of this action. It’s just the intake valve that is the problem…. so that is what DaimlerChrysler will service through qualified dealers/technicians.

Viper SRT-10-certified dealers: PVO has heard your concerns! This is the most important part… PVO wants to have your Viper SRT-10s taken care of locally, for a number of reasons. One, because they are confident that the SRT-qualified techs are MORE than capable of doing the work (heck, DC would be responsible for any additional work necessary if anything, at all, went sour). But additionally, because they have stated more than once, that we are THE most important customers to them, and our continued satisfaction is their number one priority. Therefore, they neither want to deprive us from driving our vehicles for an extended period of time, nor expose our vehicles to any potential damage due to transportation, when the exact same procedure with the exact same tools would be performed at any SRT-10-certified dealer.

For those having trouble locating a Viper SRT-10-certified dealer, PVO has added an extra pair of ears to listen! That’s right! Our friends at Viper Headquarters are now able to help. Give them a call at (800) 998-1110 (please press option 1). They can point you to qualified Viper SRT-10-certified techs in each and every region, and they will address each and every unique situation with PVO.

Remember, Dodge worked hard to identify the issue, disclose it as fast as they possibly could, offer quick (and generous) follow through by setting up a procedure to quickly address it. We’ve got to believe that they will stand by their product and will properly service each affected car.

Let’s have continued faith and confidence in the company that built the car that just blew away ALL the exotics in Motor Trend!

 

[Cris]

Joe - Thanks for your efforts.

However, the statements above sound more like a political maneuver than anything else. The message is: NO Change to the current plan.

Did PVO state which dealers have specific experience or training in cylinder head removal on SRT's?

PVO has nothing beyond customer satisfaction riding on this. It is doubtful any of the decision makers experience our "Viper SRT-10-certified dealers" first hand and therefor they really do not understand the level of concern. Not that it can't be done correctly, but that my car will be the one that gets a scratch, an overtorque, an undertorque, debris under the head gasket, etc. Their responsibility is only if it fails within the warranty period as a result. Any other "damage" will be mine. They are even asking me to sign a paper stating that.

I think I can speak for many owners in that we have indeed experienced the dealer service. Those same individuals that PVO is touting. And that is the reason we are afraid of what will happen when they open up our brand new engines.

My other Viper has been to the dealer several times. In those visits I have experienced the following (from memory):
- Untorqued oil filter that completely sprayed the engine compartment with oil on the drive home.
- Wheel alignment that was undriveable and required immediate realignment (at another dealer)
- Deep scratches (down to the metal) on the door sill from a shoe
- Scratch in the dash panel
- Front fascia reinstallation that required me hiring the CAAP personnel to come to my house and align it properly
- Front fascia scraped badly on the bottom from an unauthorized test drive

Note: I am meticulous with my cars and have zero doubt that the dealer caused these to occur. In no case did the dealer that caused it admit to any wrongdoing or offer a correction.

I have not returned my RT/10 to a dealer since 1999. And for damm good reason. Now you want those same "Viper SRT-10-certified dealers" to take my engine apart?

Faith is for that which we cannot control. In this case we, the owners, still have some level of control and need to exert it. Buy back, class action, etc, these are all things that come to mind.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Chris very well stated!

Reminder, when your car goes in for service the dealership takes no responsibility for accidental damage to your car. That is on your account and insurance.

 

[Joseph Houss]

Guys... Read Again ... Please.

CALL 800-998-1110 .... THIS was not an option before, and they are here to assure that you are satisfied. Please, call them before passing judgement!

 

[bill gidden]

JOE, I JUST FINISHED TALKING TO THE 800 NUMBER YOU GAVE US.....I AM 30 MILES SOUTH OF MEMPHIS...THE LADY SAID AFTER SEARCHING HER AVAILABLE INFO, THAT THERE WERE NO CERTIFIED SRT TECHS WITHIN 5 HOURS DRIVE TIME....I BELIEVE THIS MUST DEFINE THE DISTANCE THAT DC WILL HAUL MY CAR. SHE SAID SHE WOULD GET BACK WITH ME.....I DON'T KNOW REALLY WHAT THIS MEANS OTHER THAN THE CERTIFIED TECHS MUST BE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN....FIVE HOURS DRIVE TIME FROM MEMPHIS COVERS LOTS OF GROUND. ANYWAY, I DO APPRECIATE THE INFO YOU'VE FURNISHED AND THE APPARENT ATTEMPT AT HELPING TO RESOLVE THIS SITUATION. THANK YOU
BILL GIDDEN

 

[Joseph Houss]

That's great info Bill, so now, Viper HQ will report this to PVO, and they will come up with the satisfactory solution.

Stay tuned!

 

[Janni]

It really doesn't sound like there are *that* many SRT/10 certified dealers. How's about posting the list here?

Were the techs trained on the head removal procedure as part of this certification? Any additional training on the valve swapping?

Can we have a better idea what this certification means from a training perspective? Number of hours? Areas covered, etc?

Perhaps if we all know who the dealers are and how the techs were trained, we may feel better about having them work on the affected cars.

While this is certainly a change in contact information, it's not, IMO, a change worthy of the "New info and Great News" billing it received here, as it doesn't change anything about the repair procedure itself.........

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I do appreciate Joe's support and time working with PVO to help resolve the real and perceived problems with the existing PVO/DC solution.

I think we all understand that the cars are under warranty and that if the repair work result is premature engine failure it will be covered under warranty. Who pays for cosmetic damage to the engine and area around the engine, body and interior? Unfortunately damage from service is all to common at dealerships that are not Viper friendly.

The fact that our warranty will cover any work that may be done wrong is not the point. If we do have a problem then we have to deal with a repeat of the process that caused the problem in the first place.

 

[Joseph Houss]

Janni, Fred and all....

The objective of this new procedure is to allow each "valve issue" SRT-10 owner to have a personal, and familiar contact, that can address each issue with the perspective of satisfying any concerns. Call up Viper HQ... and let's see how it goes.

 

[RC Viper]

Joe

I read the title of your thread with great anticipation.

I read your actual post three times to see if I was missing something.

There is no change here. DC's policy has not changed one bit. The only thing
I can conclude is that DC has studied the situation and has determined that Viper owners are simply not a large enough group to affect them financially.

A while back you posted a thread asking Viper owners to talk about how
owning a Viper influenced their purchasing decisions of new automobiles.
You might have noticed that I was one of the first ones to post to this
thread touting my loyalty to the Chrysler brand. I vote with my pocket
book. Since 1998 I have purchased over $183,000 worth of new Chrysler products in addition to owning another $80,000 worth of classic Chrysler products. I would guess that several SRT owners could make similar claims.

Let me now suggest that you post a new thread asking how many owners will no
longer purchase DC products as a result of this situation. Please use my post
as the basis for the thread.

And by the way, just in case non-SRT owners think that this change in Viper
support level will have no affect on them you are mistaken. If DC is now
requiring the local techs to tear apart brand new Viper engines on their flagship Gen III Vipers to do recall work how long do you think it will be before the Arrow rebuild program is history?

Welcome to the new world of Viper service and support.

 

[CaboViper]

I basically agree with Chris. This issue should have been resolved in a more customer friendly matter but as far as I'm concerned it has not! We pay $85,000 or more for a car, wait up to a year for it to arrive and then are told it needs to be ripped into for new valves. Then we are told to go to your local dealer and have any tech available work on this car with no assurances that he or she has any experience working on Vipers or this specific problem. I have talked to every dealership within 200 miles of my home and the general comments are, we are not aware of any problem, we do not have trained Viper techs because we seldom work on Vipers and it's sounds like you need to have the work done at the factory that caused the problem. I even had one dealership tell me they won't do the work because Viper owner's are a pain in the ---. Just great! ISG has no clue what dealerships have TRAINED Viper techs. They just state any 5-star dealership can do the work. This inspires a lot of confidence.

I called the number you indicated Joe and was told the same old crap about "the closest 5-star dealership is." I asked if they had qualified Viper techs fimiliar with the SRT-10, specially the valve problem, and they stated "all our techs are qualified."

When I first saw your new post I said to myself, great, finally a solution. I should have known better. I appreciate your efforts Joe but they are not enough. DC should send a qualified factory tech to each region, at a central location, to fix our cars. We will give up the $300.
That would pay for his travel expenses. It's a win win situation that would give us some confidence in the work being done. But that won't happen, it makes to much sense!

Were on our own! It's that simple. Each one us will have to find the best so-called "5-star dealerhsip" to do the work and then hope that it's done properly.
DC has shown they are good at hiring ISG (at a considerable amount of money) to BS us through this. That money could have been spent on fixing our cars properly and with confidence. My confidence in DC has been downgraded consideralbly. And it will affect my buying decisions in the future.

 

[Milksnake]

Joseph, we appreciate the information you have given us, however, except for a new phone number it appears as if everything is the same. We, too, will probably not buy another Chrysler product due to the treatment we have received, in fact we currently have on order a Subaru WRX-STi instead of the SRT4 that we were going to buy.

 

[Milksnake]

Joseph, BTW is the 7 year/70,000 mile warranty transferable to a new owner who may be concerned about the "valve problem?" Also, we will get some sort of varification that the valves are corrected.

 

[Cris]

I will hazard a guess. Yes it is transferable and no verification will be provided. However, I will dyno mine before and after (if I go through with it). I will have clear evidence to the performance level of the product I paid for.

As a part of the dyno test I will have the emissions checked as well. Not so certain that reduced air flow during open loop periods will not increase emissions. I am quite certain it would decrease fuel economy as well (not a concern of mine, but another compliance related possibility).

Again, to restate my concern. My greatest concern is damage that may occur as the result of the repair activity. And that I bear the full risk for this material defect that was intrinsic in the vehicle at the time of purchase. I am not prepared to take that risk without precautions taken to minimize the risk.

For those worried about the experience level I give this advice. Every dealership and technician will obtain his or her experience on the first SRT they work on. Given the quantity of cars and distribution around the US I would think that many of us will be that first time experience. I am certain that I do not want to be first. I also do not wish on my fellow owners to be first either. But someone has to be first. Volunteers???

 

[Mike Brunton]

Joe,

Despite your best cosmetological efforts, I don't think you're gonna be able to put enough lipstick on this pig to make it look good


Guys,

You have to think about this from DC's perspective. They CANNOT give any special treatment to anyone. You guys talk about lawsuits and buybacks - can you imagine what you would do if you were the guy who WASN'T part of the VCA and later found that the guys on this site got "special treatment" by getting factory techs to do the repair? You'd be PISSED and you would be contemplating a lawsuit of your own!

I would respectfully suggest that the ONLY way DC is going to do more than they have done, is if they are insulated from ANY and ALL complaining from the ENTIRE group of bad-valve cars.

If you guys can come up with a solution for that, then maybe PVO/DC will be able to implement it?

It seems the problem is some have already had the valve work done. Maybe a solution would be that DC send trained techs to various regions and offer to have the tech fix the affected cars. For those that have ALREADY had the job done, DC should extend an offer to have their car brought in and the tech will do a thorough inspection of the work done to verify it has been completed 100% to factory specs. That way, those that had the work done already won't be getting shortchanged in relation to those that want additional consideration from DC.

I'm sure the creative minds around here can come up with other ideas too that will allow DC to insulate themselves from allegations of special treatment, while also giving a fair shake to those that already got the work done, and also will alleviate the concerns of the bad-valve SRT owners.

 

[CaboViper]

I've suggested for 6 weeks to ISG, DC and several national and regional office holders that they send a tech to each region and have the work done. No positive responses. It is also a good suggestion to have the cars already done be inspected by the tech to verify the work. Again, we are on our own. In my humble opinion no other options will be presented to us that will be acceptable.

There is only one way, in my opinion, that we could possibly get a better solution to this problem, and that's to speak with a collective voice that DC realizes is not just one individual but many. Someone or a few select people would have to make the effort to band us together as a group to make our concerns HEARD. We don't need lawyer's. It would take quite a effort, but it may help is some way. I am willing to do what I can to make this happen. What do you think?

 

[knuk]

I called DC in Canada about my concerns and was told that ALL techs are qualified as it is a standard job. I asked how many Vipers they had replaced valves on in Canada and again was told it does not matter what type of car it is, it's the same procedure for all cars. That scares the hell out of me.
Also Joe, last time I called a US number about my car they had no information at all, never knew it existed. Am I left to deal with DC in Canada? In the letter I received it gave a # and said to ask for the "Viper speacialist", I called and she had no idea what I was talking about.All I am getting is crap for answers - basically being told my local dealer can replace valves on any car, no problem. Last year they totally overfilled it with oil during an oil change causing an "oil spill" all over my engine. On my other Viper, after a couple of days in the shop, it was completely covered in a yellow shop dust inside and out - I had dropped the car of right after I had it detailed as I had a mechanical problem. Can I trust this shop to open up my SRT motor and not contaminate it? DC Canada said there is no problem - I happen to think there is a problem with the way this is all being handled. I don't think anything has changed.

 

[Russ Oasis]

OK Guys...I think that I have a solution to your
problem(s). For those of you who know Tom Sessions (or know of him) you know that he is very well equipped to repair your valve (and frame recall for GTS) issues. He is one of the very best Viper mechanics in the country. If one of you can organize a few Viper owners in your local area that need valve or frame recall work done, I believe that PVO will allow (pay) him to come to your town to do the work on all the cars during a week (or so) period of time. Tom is the tech for the Viper Racing League and definitely knows his way around Vipers. He is meticulous and the right guy for the job. You can either email him (he works at a Dodge dealership in North Carolina) or I can get you his phone number. HE IS THE RIGHT GUY TO DO THE WORK. I am not speaking on behalf of DC, I just think that this is something that Tom might be able to make happen. Also Guys....some of you are freaking out over something that is not THAT big of a deal. A COMPETANT mechanic can do this work easily and quickly and not scratch anything. Whenever you start to think about bringing your car to a LOCAL Dodge dealer, just switch your thoughts to the SRT-10 beating the Lambo in 5 of 9 tests.

 

[Dead President]

Joe is in a tough spot. Thanks for your efforts for us!

The situation has not changed. I can see my hood sitting on the roof and the heads sitting on the trunk while the valves are being replaced. I see my valve covers, airbox, and throttle body sitting on the (quick oil change) shop floor. Parts are everywhere.

Of course there is nothing wrong with the heads! We simply would like to minimize the number of ways that the "straightforward" valve replacement can be screwed up. Swapping fully assembled heads is expedient, professional and reduces the chance of a screwup. They'd do it if it was a 500SL.

To add to the problem, sending a few factory expert DC Viper techs on a road show has got to be cheaper than the recall related costs at ISG & Viper HQ!

. . . and don't forget the dyno fees. Who wouldn't have a dyno after the work is done and who is paying for it?

I don't want bad press for DC (I want a reasonable solution), but I am surprised that this hasn't hit the trade rags yet.

 

[GR8_ASP]

It is only time regarding the negative press. I have received 4 detailed surveys so far and I am sure more are to come.When you get a "letter" regarding the valve issue about the same time as a JD Power or other satisfaction survey it is hard to believe that the experience would not influence the responses.

And yes I would absolutely perform dyno tests. I have no idea what I would do if the performance was not at or near the 450 RWHP number that non-valve issue cars have shown.

 

[knuk]

Joe, you are trying your best and we know you are stuck in the middle. We just want a proper repair but feel we are getting the shaft. I asked DC for a new motor and I think the so called "Viper specialist" on the other end got pi$$ed at me! I was the one that dropped $140,000 Canadian (lots of taxes!)for my SRT and I was serious about a new motor.

 

[CaboViper]

I was contacted by Autoweek on Monday about the SRT-10 intake valve problem. I have not responded yet. I really don't want to rip DC just yet but as time passes without an acceptable solution I certainly will air my opinions. I would rather keep this in the family. Negative press is just
around the corner.

 

[CaboViper]

Russ, good suggestion. Can you get me his number please. I'd also like to know why you think PVO would go for this. I don't think they will but I certainly hope your right!

 

[Joseph Houss]

Keep it coming guys. PVO needs to see your concerns.

A couple of answers:

1) 7/70 IS transferrable

2) The Great News is that JR Thompson, Viper HQ is involved in listening, and reporting your concerns to PVO, so that PVO can try to satisfy all. This was not part of the procedure before, and because of our voice, things are changing.

3) Never tried applying lipstick to pig, although in my bachelor days....

4) Autoweek LOVES a story, but I betcha posting your concerns on this website will work MUCH better!

5) Keep calling Viper HQ, give them the facts (ask for the list of dealers, describe who you "trust" or "don't trust" to get the job done), your concerns (yes, ANY cosmetic damage is surely the dealers responsibility), AND your particular "ultimate fix suggestion" to keep you a happy SRT-10 owner

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Joe,

Thanks Again for your support.

The pig and lipstick act sounds entertaining.

Spoke with Viper HQ this morning, they know and understand our concerns. We have to due our part to help Viper HQ to help us. What is our part - as a start define the closest known good Viper Techs and Viper friendly service facilities.

Enjoy your cars they are only down a few hp which means the exotic behind is a little closer but still behind!

 

[GR8_ASP]

Good news. I called the number and Viper Headquarters was very friendly and positive. They checked all possible dealers for current Viper techs and lead me to the dealer with the best reputation. Thankfully, they did not have my local dealer on the list, who I completely distrust and would never promote using (Meadowbrook Dodge). That provided some confirmation that it is not just a 5 Star type of list.

She indicated that Viper HQ is working with the customer (us) and ISG will work with the dealers in terms of scheduling etc. Sounds like a fair trade as ISG did not seem to be very customer oriented.

One question for those in the know: When ISG schedules the repair will they require me to sign this "statement" in order to obtain the repair? If so what happens if I am not willing to sign it? I say this only reading the statement via the web site and not seeing it first hand. But the language contained in the web copy was not acceptable to me.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Maybe this problem will get Dodge to install the PVO-Dealer concept?? Let's hope.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Steve,

That is a great solution for the Viper Nation and PVO.

The "Five Star" dealer can be a mediocre dealer that paid $1400.00 to get his "Five Star" Image is not necessarily Viper friendly or Neon friendly.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Good news - The dealer that I was set up with has done the valve repair on 2 cars already. It is great to be a non-guinea pig! That makes me feel much better about the engine work itself. Now if I can get through this scratch free!

Still no idea about the affidavit that everyone speaks about. I have not been asked to sign anything. And of course won't when asked. $300 isn't enough to buy me off.

 

[8AVETTE]

Ron, what dealer are you going to? I have the valve problem also.I just hope they don't give me a hard time about the supercharger.