What do Vipers, American Automakers, and T-Rex Dinosaurs have in common?

[ChicagoGTS]

All were savage rulers of their time, All were grotesquely powerful and instinctive, All were predator's in the most primitive sense, All were visually intimidating, All are talked about in the past-tense, None could predict the future, All may leave the same legacy...

There is a very strange paradox brewing that began in my opinion when Honda put out the S2000, which was amplified by the movie "Fast and the Furious". It would appear that even though we are/were in a economic downtime and in the midst of the biggest gas crunch since the 70's things are very different this time around. Here's the paradox, we are also equally wrapped up in the hottest "Horsepower War" since that era as well only it's running parallel rather than in succession. Sure the Viper has been out for a long time now and these HP bounderies are nothing new to us owners, but you have to realize that we've owned the road since the the Viper's birth and as the old cliche' says "all good things must come to an end". We've been viewed as "the ones brave enough to tame the beast" for over a decade now. Everything has it's time and place in pop culture and it would appear that HP is back, bigtime...

IMHO the next three years should be awesome for horsepower enthusiasts like us. I'm still totally baffled by the numbers though as you'd think skyrocketing gas prices would smother a trend such as this just as it did in the 70's, but history has proven that hardships recede. I think the best is yet to come and should the gas crunch somehow subside, it will come on like a brush fire in So. Cal.

My predictions over the next three years are that we're probably going to see the highest HP vehicles in history roll of of the production lines. Toyota will re-release the (dare I say it) "Supra" into the wild again and Ford is coming with the 40K 450HP "Cobra" that will make a bigger splash than the Z06. I'm also predicting that Japan has a few other serious project's brewing for it's number one customer that are going to leave us for lack a lack of better words "floored" when they hit the runway.

At present GM is seriously fanning the flame of this HP war with their new Z06 and I'm very happy to see an American Manufacturer is daring to be bold. I think we're going to see a few others throw there hat into the ring as well. D/C has never been shy about putting it's best foot forward, but they'll have to push the envelope like they did in the beginning to stay on top. That's what gave the Viper it's awe inspiring presence, not staying with the herd. So I'm predicting that either the Coupe get's bumped 100HP to keep the wolves at bay, or the Viper SRT/Coupe get's devoured by the pack and takes it's place next to the Sasquatch in modern American folklore .

IMHO, playing it safe and poor engineering are the two evils that are eating away at the American auto industry like a cancer. I know there are other variables that don't help matters like GM's generous retirement plans, but the fact is that we're always reacting instead of innovating, and cutting corners on production. If you think I'm wrong or are offended by my thoughts than I'm sorry, but demand is what drives value. and thanks to the web that's not hard to track these days. Check out Autotrader or Cars.com, do a "Power Search" by "Body Style" and leave "all makes" in the search criteria for whatever year range you'd like, then sort them by price. The results will scare you!

Anyone take a look at the pricing of used car sales? With a few exceptions (Ford F150 and a handful of "unique vehicles" like ours), they are "ALARMING" to say the least. I think people turn a blind eye to this problem, but it's a clear message from us (the consumers). IMHO As it stands, our Automakers are becoming buyout targets and at the current share prices it's probably inevitable.

I don't mean to be negative here but for some reason this sentiment has become acceptable and it ****** me off. American automakers are in a sad state of affairs this low-tone murmur that started back in the 80's has turned into a defeaning roar, "Our Quality and Innovation *****"! I think the likes of D/C's merger will be a trend in the industry as well, Honda/GM, BMW/Ford, Toyota/You get the picture and eventually over time the slash portion of the name is dropped and disappears forever.

P.S. ~ I hope I'm wrong about most of this...

Sorry for the rant guys, I'm done. Blast away!!!

~Matt~

 

[IEATVETS]

Taking all of this a little bit hard aren't you Matt? Competition is good for companies, it tends to bring out the best product or better product. SO WHAT if the Vette has more HP. I could care less. So what if Toyota comes out with more HP. Even Ford. Big deal. Looking at your sig you would already beat them anyways as you are supercharged. I just can't figure some of you out. You take this so called "HP war" way to seriously. Some of you have no confidence in DC. They are listening and will respond.

 

[Warfang]

Some of you have no confidence in DC. They are listening and will respond.

I'll have some of that crack he's smoking.

 

[ChicagoGTS]

My writing is not in anger, my thoughts towards the American automotive industry are just an observation. This thread although it included the Viper was more about the big picture. The direction I see it heading, it's just my opinions poured onto a keyboard. However of all the American or Pseudo-American companies I mentioned I believe D/C has played their hand the best. Rather than pour millions into a luxury line they merged with one and a classy one at that. I hold GM as well as the other American companies I mentioned with the highest regard, which is why my writing sounded the way it did. It saddens me to look at the used car sales and see a definitive line in every class; Imports on top, Domestics on the bottom and the value gap just seems to be getting wider and wider. I am guilty of the same thought process, if my niece were to ask my opinion on a used car my first reflex (not processed thought) is to blurt out "if it's not under warranty go Honda or Toyota" and I hate it every time. I do truly hope they can right the ship but at this point I don't see how.

On a lighter note I think the new Vette is a fantastic machine, that's why I said I was happy to see that it was GM taking a risk. I agree I'd much rather have competition than be the only show in town that's what I was writing about. The point I was making was that the sports car sector of the automotive industry has once again begun to boom even under the pressure of rising gas prices, turmoil in the middle-east, the promise of alternate fuels, and hybrid cars. I just think that at the Viper's current price level they could easily squeeze out some extra juice to keep it justifiable, Ford and GM have upped the ante it's time for D/C to call them out and put the same stamp on the sector they always have, dominance! I'm very excited about it all, I meant what I said about the next three years. I think we will see the fastest cars for quite a few years to come, and possibly the best the IC motor as we know has to offer. Then as fast as they came they'll be gone again.

After that we'll all probably be driving hybrid's! Supercharged hybrid's that is (lol)!!!

~Matt~

 

[joe117]

GM is cutting back big time.
I always wondered if they really made any money on Corvettes. I suspect that they don't.

It will be very interesting to see if they make as many ZO6s as they planned.
I'll bet they lose money on every one.

How can a big company like GM make money on anything that they produce in low thousands numbers?

 

[joe117]

"Rather than pour millions into a luxury line they merged with one"

They merged?

 

[ChicagoGTS]

"May 7, 1998 - Germany's Daimler-Benz and the Chrysler Corporation formally announced their merger today, forming the fifth largest automaker in the world."

~Matt~

 

[Vic]

"All wealth is the product of labor"

Since manufacturing is labor intensive, it stands to reason that all manufacturing will move to the regions of cheapest labor. China beats Mexico right off the map for cheap labor.

Used to be, the tarrifs on imports were enough of a financial deterrent, that it did not make business sense to manufacture overseas. But since a communist national named "John Huang" bribed the Klintonistas to get China ascribed "most favored nation" trade status, and since the passage of NAFTA and GATT during lame duck sessions of congress, the flood gates have now been opened for cheap imports to rout out the remaining US manufacturers of ALMOST ANYTHING, and Ross Perots' prophetic words ring true, about the "giant sucking sound of jobs leaving this country". The globalists will have the USA reduced to a service economy, with a large service labor class with only driver's licenses, no citicenship. Thats the way they want their workers, dumb, hardworking, with no Constitutional rights. The new political players will look to this easily manipulated class for their voter base, just like when Hillary pardoned all those Puerto Rican criminals, or gave them amnesty, so she could run for Senator from New York. Play to the ignorant masses, just to get in office. Thats why neither political party is preaching the closing of the border with Mexico, because those illegal immigrants represent cheap, non-union labor for one thing, and they also represent a new political base of voters, who will gladly cast their ballot for the candidate who promises them public-paid-for health care. Play to this new voter base, and you are a shoe-in for office. You don't need the intellectuals anymore, because in the new economy, the simple workers outnumber all other voter blocks. Why does Bush sympathize with Vicente Fox, in condemning the Minute Men as "vigilantes"? They are only patriots, doing what the Federal Government refuses to do, defending our national border. Maybe some politicians don't want to offend, or sound harsh or critical of the new voter base. Especially while they are pushing for CAFTA.

The nation is changing into a service economy, led by the globalists. Unless the labor cost in the United States is reduced to near third-world labor rates, there will not be a United States anymore as we have known it. The globalists behind NAFTA, CAFTA, and GATT have traded our national sovereignty for higher profit margins, traded our birthright for a bowl of porridge. Prepare to be assimulated.

Sounds ludicrous to anyone who isn't used to discussing these things, I know that. Most people are far more familiar with baseball scores, or hot stocks, and the larger picture of where this country is heading either scares them, and they would like to pretend that everything is fine and dandy, or perhaps they just never take the time to examine the big picture, and the underlying forces at work for changes that are coming. Before you respond by saying I'm a nut case, just look at what has been happening in the USA, the "Big Three" automakers are going the way of the dodo bird, GM is closing plants (25,000 layoffs, possibly permanent)in the face of severe financial pressure, Ford is barely surviving. Those aren't just corporations, they are American institutions, and what is happening to them is a foreshadowing of what is happening to the country at large. Millions of manufacturing jobs have gone south, the government won't close the border, the nation is turning into a service based economy, politicians are playing to the new underclass of cheap labor by giving them driver's licenses, and next they will be voting, and not even the very icon of Americana, Levis Jeans, they aren't even made in the USA anymore! They closed their last US plant recently, and now make all their Levis Jeans overseas with cheap labor. The nation is undergoing changes driven not so much by some inevitable globalization evolution, as it is driven by greed of internationalists and their political puppets. The very fact that a communist national "John Huang" could successfully bribe our president and get away with it is treasonous. America is for sale now.

Soon you may walk into your Chevy dealer, and there on the showroom floor, is a new BMW/GM. Can't happen? Why not, we got our beloved icon of America, the Dodge Viper, now being made by "Daimler Chrysler"! Ford and GM are next, they can't compete with 1.5 billion non-union Chinese laborers, (DC is planning on importing Chinese cars to the US) and Ford+GM are ripe for a buyout. Won't be long now, before their financial knees buckle under the barrage of cheap Chinese imported cars about to hit our shores, and they are forced to concede defeat, like Chrysler did. There will be a huge consolidation of automakers.

What happened to the sovereign nation that my grandfather fought for in WW1, and my father in WW2? Wasn't their sacrifice good for anything better, then to have some **** bag president (Klinton) sell out to the commies (John Huang)?

Now we got a "World Court" thanks to GATT, (Its really a "treaty", but cleverly called an "agreement", so it wouldn't need 2/3rds majority, and just a few puppets on the take could pass it during a lame duck session, with a simple majority vote of attendees), that subjects citicens on American soil to the legal decisions of a foreign body. Thats not sovereignty, thats slavery. Thats not what America is all about, the "land of the free, and the home of the brave".

 

[Camfab]

Chicago and Vic, you are mirroring my words. My biggest fear is that neither political parties agenda has this countries best interests at heart. Both sides play the games during elections, but simply bank on the ignorance and short-sided memories of the common voter. Lets face it, greed powers our leaders as the machine and the individual only care about their own gain. BUY AMERICAN, it's not a slogan, it's the future of your family. Please do not respond by saying that I'm endorsing inferior products either. My point is that many people will choose an inferior or possibly similar product based only price, with no regard towards it's origin of manufacture.

 

[joe117]

If China can produce products, ship them to the USA, sell them to WalMart, and have them beat out USA produced products for our shopping dollars,
there isn't anything that can be done to change that.

If they were dumping just to drive US producers out, I'd say stop them.
But I don't think they are dumping.
I think they are simply able to out produce the US worker.

When it comes to production line work, I don't see why anyone would be surprised that a $60k GM worker could be out produced.

You cant build an economic wall keeping out products that are legitimately produced at a much lower cost.
The US worker and company will have to change with the times.
How things will work out, I don't know. But I do know that The USA cant just hide out behind trade laws and import taxes while the outside world sells inexpensive goods to one another.

Do you want Americans making products at double or triple the real labor cost of a foreign competitor?
Just so he can have a job?
How long do you think that will work?

What will happen when our foreign competitors start producing new kinds of products not offered by our protected manufacturing base?

"No new holographic monitor for you folks"
It isn't being made in the USA, so you can't buy one yet.
You will just have to wait.

If we ever spend a decade or two behind a serious tariff wall, it will be almost impossible to get out of it.

 

[ChicagoGTS]

Our production issues and concerns with China are a whole different animal...
Unions, retirement plans, health care, and Insurance Hikes are all crippling to our corporations and making the cost of business unreasonable. But everyone's looking out for #1 and pursuing the American Dream. If the fat were trimmed from the US, we would once again be a lean mean production machine, but that's a diet that Atkin's couldn't even help. I think that's one of the big differences between someone like China and ourselves, it would seem that China has the support of economic momentum and it's from the ground up. Sure they have government corruption as we do, but they are a very Spiritual country. Which as cheesey as it sounds negates alot of the "greed" problems we suffer from. I'm sure China will have their road blocks and issues as they grow. An analogy I like to use with China is that "they are the gigantic but overly shy friend you knew growing up that one day realized how strong he was simply because of his sheer size and one day got tired of watching his friends get all of the attention". That scenario always spells trouble for the incumbant top dog.

I think our problem with Japan and Germany for that matter is very different...
Japan has a "Higher" cost of living than we do ($80,000 average), yet we are being out thought, out menuevered, and beat to the punch on most everything we compete against them with. They are a very dynamic country that has always been aggressive and produced some great minds, But like China they are unselfish by nature (I think free enterprise is changing that and perhaps our problems are just a more mature version that "our" system naturaly causes). However, it amazes me how an otherwise tiny island could be such a big part of global history. With Germany quality is always a priority and their products reflect that, and man talk about some great minds!

I agree that we need to buy American, I'm just pointing out the reason nobody wants to. By the way most of our cars have become the inferior product IMO. People want the most for their money, "Quality and Reliability" and in time certain brand names become synonymous with those attributes.

I think the roles would be reversed and we'd sell a ton of cars if the public suddenly wanted the most "Compliance and Standards" for their money. I want a better reason other than "Buy American your family depends on it"! That crap just allows them to keep forcing the same **** down our throats! I'd be scared to even look at International export figures based on that thinking. I'd say build a great product!!! And "everyone" will want to buy American...

~Matt~

 

[ChicagoGTS]

Vic, I somehow missed your post. Well said!

~Matt~

 

[joe117]

Basic manufacturing, cars, TV sets, toilets, shoes.....
Americans are just not going to do those jobs.

It's not that Americans don't want to work, they just demand a better standard of living than can be met with a 1940s kind of job.

There are hundreds of millions of people around the world who would love to have a 1940s kind of job.

India, China, Pakistan, South Korea.... These folks are willing to sit on a production line, making enough money to live in a small apartment, buy food and have a vehicle of some kind, perhaps live in a city and walk to work. They can also give their kids a childhood and an education of some kind.

This is a big step up for them. It's sort of like the Grandparents in the US from "the old country".
They knew what "bad" was and they thought they had it good living in an apartment from paycheck to paycheck.
They were happy sewing dresses and making shoes or steel or working on a production line or a throwing mill, or in a coal mine in Scranton PA.

So many people around the world are just now getting to the point where the US was in 1948. Labor in a factory is just fine for them. People who used to be slave labor on a farm now have a chance at a life of their own.

The US worker is not going to compete with these folks when it comes to labor.

As I said,
I don't know how things will turn out. But if we try to hide behind walls of restrictions and tariffs,
we will end up like Europe, a welfare state electing governments that will give us something for nothing, for as long as we can.

And that isn't forever.

The only way I can see, just off the top of my head, for the USA to work with the new world economic reality would be for us to use our high tech food production in a way similar to OPEC.

 

[Ted Bigham]

There are a lot of ways for companies to make money besides physical production of goods. American companies can take advantage of low cost labor and still keep the profits in the country. Part of the evolutionary process for a country should involve less factory and manual labor jobs, and more higher level, higher paying jobs, that control those others.

Education plays a big part in that too. If we're graduating people that are only capable of screwing on lug nuts in a factory line, then we're not building for a society capable of affording the lifestyle everyone seems to demand. Teach our future workers how to design Vipers instead of how to just put them together, and let the 3rd world countries do our dirty work.

 

[ViperRay]

I agree with you 100% Joe.

We are artificially propping up the U.S. standard of living... it can't go on indefinitely.

 

[Vic]

Interesting comments from everybody! Who says Viper owners can't carry on a conversation?

As a union member, (and small union business owner), my perspective is this-

After WW2, we had arguably the largest manufacturing base of any industrialized nation. Was a time when our products were recognized world wide as quality, just like we buy and trust Sony today. With the prosperity that came with that, unions demanded more and more wages, benefits, etc, etc, until the cost of American labor was hugely disparate with other countries. The cost of American labor would not likely be reduced or rolled back, so many industrialists sought to manufacture products in foreign countries. Only there was significant obstacles to this, in the existing tarrif structure imposed on foreign goods.

Which brings us to the unholy trinity, GATT, NAFTA, and now, CAFTA. These treaties reduce the obstructions on importing foreign goods. These treaties were put into motion by those who stood to benefit from them. Its not like the average guy was walking along the street, thinking to himself "Hey, how much better my life would be if we could just import cheap goods without tarrifs, and ship American jobs to third world countries!" Of course not! NAFTA, CAFTA and GATT are the brainchild of the globalists. These people are not concerned with borders, national identity, patriotism, etc. They see the world as their playground, have homes all over the world, and just play any angle they can to make money. These are the people who sought to change the status quo, and push NAFTA, GATT, and CAFTA through the legislature without so much as one minute of debate. I am hammering this point, just to show that it is not me who is calling for protectionist measures, I'm just pointing out what kind of power it is that sought the changes of NAFTA, GATT, and CAFTA. They are some super wealthy individuals, not like little millionaires like Trump, these are more on a par with Buffet and Soros. You never see them on the news, but they are the movers and shakers behind the scenes, who finance international operations, and push laws through our hallowed halls of legislature with the help of their puppet minions.

I have a friend who works for one such firm, he is in a certain third world country right now, negotiating deals to move more of their businesses over there. You have to recognize that laws that reduce the cost of labor benefit mostly those who pay for labor. They artificially changed the structure of tarrifs and trade, to benefit themselves. NAFTA, GATT, and CAFTA were not just evolutionary laws, not simply an eventuality of natural history, they were the well-calculated tool of international financiers and industrialists. And they got those treaties passed into law without ANY PUBLIC DEBATE! "We the People" never voted for that any of that stuff! It was crammed down out throats with no public debate, no time for any opposition. That's social engineering on a grand scale. The forces set in motion by their actions are now changing our country, and forever changing our way of life. Post WW2 prosperity and an affluent, secure, huge middle class used to be the status quo, thats all over now. Its back to dog-eat-dog, and only the very smart and daring will be able to amass wealth. There will be almost two classes, illegal immigrant labor, along with flunkie local labor, and then there will be the owner's class, who employs them and benefits from their efforts. Land owners, and workers in the field, the same cross section of society seen in nations throughout history. The USA used to be an exception in the anals of time, where the common man was uniquely blessed with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, contrasted to the lot of the average man in times past, where you were either a noble landowner, or a serf. The average American man in the new economy will not enjoy the same standard of living his father enjoyed, and the beneficial, special position the USA used to occupy. And these laws (NAFTA, CAFTA, and GATT) represent a "sea-change" in the affairs of this country, for they promote unprecedented social and economic changes, and vigorously alter the course of American history. It could be argued that opening borders and eliminating tarrifs are somehow natural or evolutionary, but ask yourself if it was really neccessary to ACELLERATE the process, by pushing such legislation through. They are not so much evolutionary laws, they are really just greedy, self-serving laws, written by those who only wished to circumvent the high cost of unionized (and by extension of common practices, highly paid non-union) American labor. From my perspective, this was the purpose of NAFTA, GATT, and CAFTA, to remove the high cost of doing business with American labor. One look at GMs health benefit package for retirees shows that excessive union compensation is the deal breaker, that can terminate an other-wise viable company. If GM survives, it will be a miracle. Ford, too. Chrysler already got bought out. Ironic that Chrysler makes Jeeps, that once carried American service men into battle with a former enemy that now owns the company! Wonder who really won that one? Give credit to the Germans, who work hard, and produce quality products. That's what it takes to win.

Look at Walmart. They are the USA's #1 retailer, and they employ 10s of thousands of Americans in happy jobs with a bright future, in this new service based economy. Now isn't that a cheery thought? Recently, they also are *uh-hem" uh, "alledgedly" using illegal immigrants in their workforce. Unproven allegations, of course, of course. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) Again, this shows that major corporations benefit from cheap labor, and whether they export jobs, or import illegals, its still cheap labor, and it serves their purposes just fine. Unionized labor is the enemy of such concerns, thats why Walmart fought so viciously to prevent an employee from wearing a T-shirt to work, that advocated union membership.

NAFTA, GATT, and CAFTA are the means by which internationalists circumvented the high cost of American labor. If you can't roll back wages without a crippling strike, then close the factory, and move operations overseas. Thats it in a nutshell. In so doing, the USA will be left to disinegrate at an accelerated rate. The American experience is over, the country is on a downward slide into obscurity, along with all the other great nations of history. But we still have the world's greatest military, you say? Well, we can't suuport an effective military indefinitely, unless we make something, and sell it elsewhere to import wealth. Bullets cost dollars, and wealth must be gained by exporting a product. This nation does not import wealth by buying foreign products! As it is, the wealth of the USA is LEAVING the country, as witnessed by the highest trade imbalances in our nations history, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars are leaving this country, as we **** up cheap imports from China and the third world. China is getting fat off the excess of the American land, as well as Europe. A transfer of wealth and infrastructure is occuring, a defacto transfer of American sovereignty and the mortgaging off of America's future.

Spain used to be a super power, until they no longer imported wealth, then their era of world dominance was over. A nation has to produce something or die. Or make war, and commit a financial "car jacking" on a huge scale, like the Vikings of old who sacked Europe. But the USA doesn't wage wars of agression, right? So unless we start making wealth by exporting products, the American experience has entered an end game of dwindling returns.

Sure, there will always be successful people, many of them are on this forum, who are smart, hard working, opportunistic, and these types of people will always make money, no matter if you dropped them naked from a plane into a strange country, in short order, they would be starting businesses and soon become successful. But these people are a relatively small percentage of the population, and the far outnumbering masses will only groan under the strain of their meager Walmart paycheck, and complain about the high cost of gasoline to fill up their Chinawagon. Such is always the lot of the un-informed, to toil under the whip, and be taxed to death supporting the poltical state. If you are not in the latter group, consider yourself blessed.

Although these laws (you know, nafta, gatt, etc, I'm getting tired of hearing myself type those words) were passed by our elected officals, they do not benefit the average American family, the profits don't even "trikle-down", for they are not employing Americans with the windfall, they only benefit the global internationalists. The divergence in labor rates between the first world and the third world is the whole game, its a "plum". This "plum" goes directly to the international financiers and industrialists, not the USA at large.

Anyway, now that we know all that stuff, what does the thinking person do? Figure out which way the financial wind is blowing, and set sail?

Throughout our nation's history, there has been periods of hard times, and then again, prosperity. Its not like the USA started out rich, it took time, and along the way there were rocky periods. Maybe we are heading towards a rocky period now. One thing for sure, there will always be changes in the world, and there is no linearity of prosperity, only periods of apparent stability punctuated by cataclysmic changes. Stability is an illusion, only change is certain. Its the smart people, the survivors, who figure out what to do with each new set of circumstances, take advantage of it, and these types of individuals will come out on top. I'm not a grumbler, so much as a futurist. I've shared my perspective about which way the wind is blowing, examined the underlying causes like you would if evaluating a commodity, shown where the country is going, no more. Now we must take the rudder of our lives, which is our free will, and make the best of the current tide.

 

[ChicagoGTS]

"There are a lot of ways for companies to make money besides physical production of goods. American companies can take advantage of low cost labor and still keep the profits in the country. Part of the evolutionary process for a country should involve less factory and manual labor jobs, and more higher level, higher paying jobs, that control those others.

Education plays a big part in that too. If we're graduating people that are only capable of screwing on lug nuts in a factory line, then we're not building for a society capable of affording the lifestyle everyone seems to demand. Teach our future workers how to design Vipers instead of how to just put them together, and let the 3rd world countries do our dirty work."

I understand and agree that the occupational ideology has changed, but I don't think outsourcing labor is the answer. You still have to maintain a trade deficit, that means you have to produce something and export it, otherwise your eventually cut out of the loop. Production dictates the supply Whether the manufacturing is being done by imigrants or by American citizens the fact of the matter is that the products need to be made here. If Americans find that work to be beneath them then we need to find another way, however I don't think that's the case. I think the will to work is still there, the problem IMO is that the overall cost to manufacture anything with all the extra overhead makes it impossible to stay competitive. We can not build an economy based on consumption. It appears that we now bank on consumer confidence rather than production costs. Saying that on this board is like calling someone fat in a Jenny Craig forum, lol.

We all lead relatively lavished lives and have achieved what others would call the American Dream, so now we spend excessively and live excessively and guess what we're expected to. What a geat situation a self supporting economy, however I only have one question. What happens when the money runs out? I know relying on international trade is not the answer but it creates jobs and generates revenue that doesn't come from another Americans pocket. As a boy my father used to always say, learn as much as you can while you can and you will be fine. He used constantly say that in the future the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. Looking back I couldn't agree more. I personally blame the unions not the government, but that's just my opinion. Cheaper labor in my opinion is a good thing, (wow this thread has gone full circle) just like with sports cars the one pushing the envelope forces everyone to get better. It's about time the labor unions were challenged, they've grown into the biggest pig of all let's see them strike there way out of this one...





~Matt~

 

[Camfab]

Very well said Vic! Chicago you responded with exactly what I said someone would do! My comment on "Buy American" is not referring to inferior American products, specifically cars. I am referring to people on this forum who through their posts have made comments about buying the cheapest tools/lifts etc. with no regard to quality or place of manufacture. Many, not all, but many American made products are still superior to their foreign counterparts. I personally search out those products and give patronage to those American made products. That supports their products and American manufacturing jobs directly. Is that nationalistic? Yes! What's wrong with that! As Vic noted, many(most) of you are affluent and have been very successful in your careers, bravo. I just happen to look past my little bubble. Not every individual in our great country has the capacity or the desire to be an Engineer or Doctor, Lawyer etc. Those people need jobs, and by the way thats a large part of the US. So your simple solution for every former factory worker/laborer is, "go get a great service job shuffling paper in a cubicle or putting foreign products on the shelves". That's real productive, your basically insulting a huge percentage of this countries population. Industry is what made this great country of ours what it is today. Here's what you guys just don't get, in Germany, a journeyman machinist is revered as a Doctor in this country. German auto workers enjoy a higher standard of living than American counterparts, this includes long holidays that would be unheard of in this country. How can this be? If you care about who you are, and what you are and your country, you will produce a superior product. That's how geographically insignificant countries like Japan and Germany have crushed us.
With all that said, yes I believe in competition, yes I believe their are many corrections that need to be made. It's just that I see so many people struggling that have worked all their lives, and directly or indirectly we are all going to pay for this.

This is a great Forum!

 

[ChicagoGTS]

Great stuff Vic! I couldn't have said it any better. It's a sad state of affairs isn't it. Well, here's to the future (cheers), sometimes I wish I could just stick my head in a bucket and live in ignorance. Ah ha I've got it, I'll tell my kids to scoot over and I'll start watching more television that should work just as well!!!

Oops, I think we may have started another topic...

~Matt~

 

[ChicagoGTS]

Camfab, the first two paragraphs in that post weren't my endorsements. They were quoted from a post a few higher. I pasted them in because I forgot to click "quote". I manually edited it, perhaps it will make better sense now. I agree we do still make some great stuff, I certainly would never buy a Honda bagger over a Harley!

 

[joe117]

"in Germany, a journeyman machinist is revered as a Doctor in this country. German auto workers enjoy a higher standard of living than American counterparts, this includes long holidays that would be unheard of in this country. How can this be?"

Let me guess,

High taxes, high prices, strict tariffs, $5+ gasoline.

The world may still be convinced that a BMW or Merc is worth more than a Japanese or Korean substitute. That wont last forever.

Also, don't push the "German quality" thing too far.
The best high tech machine still comes from the USA.
German high quality products often suffer from over complicated design.

 

[ChicagoGTS]

"in Germany, a journeyman machinist is revered as a Doctor in this country. German auto workers enjoy a higher standard of living than American counterparts, this includes long holidays that would be unheard of in this country. How can this be?"

Let me guess,

High taxes, high prices, strict tariffs, $5+ gasoline.

The world may still be convinced that a BMW or Merc is worth more than a Japanese or Korean substitute. That wont last forever.

Also, don't push the "German quality" thing too far.
The best high tech machine still comes from the USA.
German high quality products often suffer from over complicated design.

IMO when it comes to German engineering whether it's by simplicity or with complexity when you compare apples to apples, innovation and quality are a priority not a convenience to them. I agree that the Japanese and German price differences will narrow, but not because of the German car prices falling. Complexity is typically but not always a product of trying things nobody has attempted before, not everything can be solved with a simple solution. Why do you think German journeyman machinist's are revered as doctor's here? That's a rhetorical quostion...

~Matt~

 

[joe117]

Where is the German Intel? Or the German Microsoft? Or the German Boeing? Or the German GE? Or the German NASA?
Or the German New York Stock Exchange.
American industry leads the world.

The Germans make nice high end cars, big deal.

 

[ChicagoGTS]

Where is the German Intel? Or the German Microsoft? Or the German Boeing? Or the German GE? Or the German NASA?
Or the German New York Stock Exchange.
American industry leads the world.

The Germans make nice high end cars, big deal.

Considering that they just realigned the entire country 15 years ago, I'd say give them time. However my comments were specifically aimed at their ability to produce cars, plain and simple. As far as a brash statement like "American industry leads the world", I'd say "don't rest on your laurels", that's what my point was when I started this thread! Open your eyes man!!! Do you mean to tell me that your content with all of this and that you don't have a feeling deep down inside that perhaps there may be a long term manufacturing problem with the way things are currently structured? Do you not watch the news? Do you pay attention to foriegn trade? If our ability to produce fails those companies you are so proud of will lift their Dresses and step across the puddle we call the Atlantic to set camp elsewhere, and that was the point of Vic's post. Joe here's some light reading that is relatively current and outlines some of the economic issues we've been rambling about.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jun2005/nf2005066_4676_db082.htm


~Matt~

 

[Warfang]

I'd say "don't rest on your laurels
~Matt~

How right you are. What do you all think the EU is all about? It's so all the EuroTrash can gang up on us. The everyday people there realize that the EU is just a power grab by the people who proposed to lead it, and voted it down. That said, the real threat is China... all of the earning potential of a superpower capitalist country, and the communist tax rate, collected to do nothing more than to build up their military.

We're at the top, and everyone wants to knock us down.