When best intentions BLOW UP an engine...

DAMN YANKEE · Jun 12, 2008

Spent some time on the phone yesterday with a great guy and VCA member. He had (bad word...had) just finished putting together a disciplined Roe Racing Supercharged GenII and then spent the required time to get on with the process of learning to tune to perfection. He spent $ and time generously on building out his rig and had captured his runs religiously until he was within tenths of the best air/fuel tuning he could. Needless to say the car ran like a top..

His last (bad word...last) project was a complete inspection and replacement with new plugs to do his final independant injector tuning.

And then??

Well folks, he took the advise of a member and swapped out to a different brand of plugs. Those plugs it appears were too long and his pistons crushed and shattered the plugs. The result was a blown engine and a long painful rebuild.

Now for all the obvious reasons, the good guy is reluctant to post this all out. He has a good reason as it is embarressing as hell to make a mistake like that. But its an important lesson and I hope I dont piss him off too much by starting a thread on this very important development on a disciplined guys motor issues.

The long and short of it...swapping out for new plugs make and model is not the kind of thing you do without asking everybody you know and posting the heck out of it on this board BEFORE you thread them in. Some plugs are too long, some plugs will fall apart...I'll get the number of the plug he used and post it out here. Hopefully he will jump in here as what happened to him is not all that unusual and we are all here to help a member.

Folks...

Does anybody have any of the following parts?

1. A good GENII head
2. A set of stock pistons

He has not asked for ANYTHING yet, but Im figuring that I am not the only guy with stuff just rotting away on the shelf, so I'm posting out to see what we can gather up for him.
He has yet to get back with what he found last night when he tore it all down.

Im traveling so if I give slow replies, just carry on.

dave6666 · Jun 12, 2008

What is the difference in length here? Not trying to add insult to injury, but would a 2 second side by side comparison, a "hmm..." if you will, have prevented this? Or was the length difference to small for an eyeball-o-metric check?

big-n-italian · Jun 12, 2008

a couple years ago before i bought a service manual for my car, i asked about the torque setting for a bolt on my suspension. the wrong setting was given and i broke the bolt. then i had to spend more time tracking down the bolt, and going to get the bolt, etc.

so i think another lesson here is - unless you are 100% sure about your advice, KEEP QUIET.

thank god mine was just a bolt and not an engine.

sorry to hear.

99 R/T 10 · Jun 12, 2008

Dave, you 're correct, but I think this would just add to the pain. We all have made bad errors. Most try not to repeat and are easy enough to get over.

DY,
Paul Scharf(800-338-4002) had a set of Gen II heads on ebay for $300. Have your friend give him a call. I would suspect that any of the tuners(DLM, Heffner, Macedo, UGR) would have some leftovers that are laying around.

ViperTony · Jun 12, 2008

Which brand and model of plugs did he use that were too long? Would be good to post that here so others don't make the same mistake. SVS is having a sale and the prices are very, very good. I saw GenII heads as well forged/creampuff pistons on their site. SVS Ron has been very helpful with me and I've a couple of orders in to them.

BlueGTS · Jun 12, 2008

Please post the make and model number of the plugs he used. I noticed when I did my ROE that the Bosche plugs that come with the kit are much shorter than the OEM plugs. I have often thought about replacing them with longer plugs as the burn can not be as efficient with the spark up inside the head. Does anyone know of a good plug to use with the ROE that is the same length as the OEM?

BOTTLEFED · Jun 12, 2008

Thanks Dan

I guess I'm still a little hesitant to post any results until I get the heads off to see the damage.
But here is what happened so far(long)...

I bought a used Roe S/C from the classifieds on this site (VCA member). I spent some extra time and money to do all the little upgrades that go along with the install - fresh coolant, new 180 thermostat, replaced inj. clips, new oil in the S/C, new intake manifold gaskets, billet P/S pulley & bracket, pinned crank pulley, MSD fuel pump booster, new Bosch spark plugs (from Roe), cleaned and balanced inj. (Tony Armour), new o2 sensors, dual Innovate WBo2 sensors w/gauge, etc...

After the install, Sean provided me with a tune to get me started. I read and reread every thread about tuning. I have also tuned other cars for myself and others, so I'm not new to tuning, just this car.
Dan was a big help and kept in touch along the way. I would send him some of my logs as I was tuning to get his opinion on my progress.

As he stated, I was very close to a perfect tune and the car seemed to run great at the temps I was tuning in (60-70deg.), however, anytime I was in different conditions, the car would knock. If it was 10deg. cooler, it would knock. If it was 10+deg. warmer, it would knock. If I changed elevation by even a few hundred feet, it would knock.
I was also getting a lot of backfiring/popping on deceleration.

I sent Dan a couple logs to show him how close I was and we both felt it was time to change out the spark plugs, to see how they looked and so I had a fresh set to do some fine-tuning with.
So I went to my first-choice for advice, the VCA, to find out about spark plugs and what everyone else is using.

After reading through as many spark plug threads as I could find and writing all the possible choices down, I decided to call around to my local parts stores and see what was available.
I found 2 of the numbers on the list (besides stock issue), NGK FR5-1 and NGK BKR7E, both of which are supposed to be 1step colder than stock. So I bought a set of both.

I got home and removed the set of Bosch plugs and see how they were. I also sent a pic to Dan for his expert opinion. They were all very similar and no problems.

I compared them to the 2 sets I just bought and noticed that the FR5-1s were longer - more like the stock plugs. The BKR7Es were very similar to the Bosch plugs in length and style.
Since I had read in my research that the longer reach plugs would help prevent the backfiring/popping and possibly help misfires, I decided to go with the longer plugs, FR5-1s.

I installed them and torqued them to the factory specs. I took it out to see how it ran and check my tune. I logged some pulls and noticed it was a little leaner than before (mid 12 a/f instead of lower 12s).
However, I was leaving and taking it on a trip south for the weekend and didn't have time to retune.

The car ran great the whole weekend and didn't even knock like it had before at that elevation. We were on our way home and I opened it up a couple times on the freeway. Then about 10mi from home I noticed some feathery wisps of smoke coming from the driver's side hood vent when I would let off the throttle. We pulled over at the next exit (which was only about 3mi before my exit to home) and opened the hood. There was oil all over the enginebay and the engine started rattling/pinging. I shut it off and looked around for any leaks/damage.
All the oil was coming from the valve cover vents and leaking out the air filter box.
We were only a few miles from home so I decided to try to baby it home. It started right up with a puff of smoke. I got it home safe and shut it off. The engine was very hot to the touch but my water temps were still OK, as was my oil press.

The next day I took off a valve cover to see if I could find any damage. Nothing, but the oil smelled very burnt.
I reinstalled the covers and did a compression test.
cyl. psi
1 113
2 111
3 80
4 144
5 0
6 144
7 82
8 121
9 121
10 132

cyl#5 had a bent spark plug electrode
cyl#4&6 electrode was gone
all others looked fine, just drenched in oil and fuel

So now I'm in the process of removing the S/C and heads to find out what will need to be fixed.
Like Dan said, I'll probably be needing some engine parts, any help will be greatly appreciated.
sorry for the long post
:dead:

-Tim

RTTTTed · Jun 12, 2008

Ouch. It hurts every time I hear about a fellow Viper owner with a hurt Viper.

Ted

ViperTony · Jun 12, 2008

BOTTLEFED said:
Thanks Dan

I guess I'm still a little hesitant to post any results until I get the heads off to see the damage.
But here is what happened so far(long)...

I bought a used Roe S/C from the classifieds on this site (VCA member). I spent some extra time and money to do all the little upgrades that go along with the install - fresh coolant, new 180 thermostat, replaced inj. clips, new oil in the S/C, new intake manifold gaskets, billet P/S pulley & bracket, pinned crank pulley, MSD fuel pump booster, new Bosch spark plugs (from Roe), cleaned and balanced inj. (Tony Armour), new o2 sensors, dual Innovate WBo2 sensors w/gauge, etc...

After the install, Sean provided me with a tune to get me started. I read and reread every thread about tuning. I have also tuned other cars for myself and others, so I'm not new to tuning, just this car.
Dan was a big help and kept in touch along the way. I would send him some of my logs as I was tuning to get his opinion on my progress.

As he stated, I was very close to a perfect tune and the car seemed to run great at the temps I was tuning in (60-70deg.), however, anytime I was in different conditions, the car would knock. If it was 10deg. cooler, it would knock. If it was 10+deg. warmer, it would knock. If I changed elevation by even a few hundred feet, it would knock.
I was also getting a lot of backfiring/popping on deceleration.

I sent Dan a couple logs to show him how close I was and we both felt it was time to change out the spark plugs, to see how they looked and so I had a fresh set to do some fine-tuning with.
So I went to my first-choice for advice, the VCA, to find out about spark plugs and what everyone else is using.

After reading through as many spark plug threads as I could find and writing all the possible choices down, I decided to call around to my local parts stores and see what was available.
I found 2 of the numbers on the list (besides stock issue), NGK FR5-1 and NGK BKR7E, both of which are supposed to be 1step colder than stock. So I bought a set of both.

I got home and removed the set of Bosch plugs and see how they were. I also sent a pic to Dan for his expert opinion. They were all very similar and no problems.

I compared them to the 2 sets I just bought and noticed that the FR5-1s were longer - more like the stock plugs. The BKR7Es were very similar to the Bosch plugs in length and style.
Since I had read in my research that the longer reach plugs would help prevent the backfiring/popping and possibly help misfires, I decided to go with the longer plugs, FR5-1s.

I installed them and torqued them to the factory specs. I took it out to see how it ran and check my tune. I logged some pulls and noticed it was a little leaner than before (mid 12 a/f instead of lower 12s).
However, I was leaving and taking it on a trip south for the weekend and didn't have time to retune.

The car ran great the whole weekend and didn't even knock like it had before at that elevation. We were on our way home and I opened it up a couple times on the freeway. Then about 10mi from home I noticed some feathery wisps of smoke coming from the driver's side hood vent when I would let off the throttle. We pulled over at the next exit (which was only about 3mi before my exit to home) and opened the hood. There was oil all over the enginebay and the engine started rattling/pinging. I shut it off and looked around for any leaks/damage.
All the oil was coming from the valve cover vents and leaking out the air filter box.
We were only a few miles from home so I decided to try to baby it home. It started right up with a puff of smoke. I got it home safe and shut it off. The engine was very hot to the touch but my water temps were still OK, as was my oil press.

The next day I took off a valve cover to see if I could find any damage. Nothing, but the oil smelled very burnt.
I reinstalled the covers and did a compression test.
cyl. psi
1 113
2 111
3 80
4 144
5 0
6 144
7 82
8 121
9 121
10 132

cyl#5 had a bent spark plug electrode
cyl#4&6 electrode was gone
all others looked fine, just drenched in oil and fuel

So now I'm in the process of removing the S/C and heads to find out what will need to be fixed.
Like Dan said, I'll probably be needing some engine parts, any help will be greatly appreciated.
sorry for the long post

-Tim

Tim, I'm really sorry to read this...I feel for you. I appreciate that you're listing the details that led to the blow up so take some comfort in knowing you may helping others avoid similiar disaster down the road. If you can, post pics of the carnage and your progress as you work through this. Thanks - tony

Mccarlin · Jun 12, 2008

Sorry to hear about your mishap, it happens to the best of us.

As for parts you need, maybe try SVS and their sale? they have tons of stock items for sale.

99 R/T 10 · Jun 12, 2008

It doesn't sound like the sparkplugs were the cause of this. If so, there would have been problems from the very begining. Could it be excessive detonation maybe from a batch of bad gas?

BOTTLEFED · Jun 12, 2008

I'm not sure if it was the plugs either, that is why I'm not pointing any fingers or condemning any particular type of plugs

Tony, I will post pics soon of the cylinders and plugs
the heads will be pulled today

EllowViper · Jun 12, 2008

#3,5,7 all on the driver's side. With the dual Innovates and the guage, I would think one could monitor a lean condition pretty rapidly. How many miles since the initial install? You indicate that you had all the injectors cleaned and balanced. I wonder if something dropped into those injectors during the install. I have cut many an injector "O" ring trying to push the ROE fuel rail on those pesky injectors. Also, I assume the individual fuel trims on those 3 aren't seriously different that the other 7 cylinders. Boy, what a shame. If you have a PAYPAL account, maybe we members can pump a few $$$ your way to defray the cost...nothing too substantial, but $10-20 dontated by several dozen members would sure add up! I know your observations and insights that will be forthcoming are actually worth a few bones to me.

RTTTTed · Jun 12, 2008

99 R/T 10 said:
It doesn't sound like the sparkplugs were the cause of this. If so, there would have been problems from the very begining. Could it be excessive detonation maybe from a batch of bad gas?

Also wondering why stock length plugs would ruin an engine. A Roe sc has nothing to do with the combustion chamber physically. Adding stock plugs to a stock piston/head combination won't suddenly hit the piston tops, whether it has a Roe intake and supercharger outside the engine or not.

Ted

ViperTony · Jun 12, 2008

99 R/T 10 said:
It doesn't sound like the sparkplugs were the cause of this. If so, there would have been problems from the very begining. Could it be excessive detonation maybe from a batch of bad gas?

According to NGK's site the NGK-FR51 has a 7/8" reach. The BKR7E has a 3/4" reach. He used the FR51's. I'm fairly certain the stock OEM plugs from Champion had a 3/4" reach. Could that extra 1/8" cause the plug to come into contact with the piston head?

EllowViper · Jun 12, 2008

Now that I re-read the post I see some of the other cylinders were symtomatic as well in regards to spark plug condition. We'll have to wait and see once the heads come off....

HI-NOS-Viper · Jun 12, 2008

Dang sorry to hear about your Mishap man. Like others have said let us know what the for sure problem of this was to help others to avoid this problem. I am sure as many have pointed out that there are some vendors with some good deals on what you need. Keep us updated and post some pics when you get a chance.

plumcrazy · Jun 12, 2008

welcome to the blown engine club. its not a fun club to be in. i was lucky enough to be in the twice blown engine club and seriously hoping NOT to join the elusive THIRD TIME club.

hang in there bud.

I really hate to spend others people money but it IS easy to do. send the engine out and have it totally built. the stock engine isn't gonna hold up to big power and i think thats where ya wanna end up. unless im wrong. and if you're gonna go thru the trouble of heads and pistons, do the rest while you are in there.

and ya just might find a bent rod while you are in there anyways.

trust me on this one point.....do it right the first time.

davem · Jun 12, 2008

Sorry about your engine.

From your description, I really don't think the length of the plugs had much to do with your problem, your tune was just too close to the knock threshold. Just because you can't readily hear it does not mean it's not there.

If the plugs were hitting you would have found out as soon as you turned the engine over.

I suspect the pistons/rings/ring lands are broken due to knock.

Keep us posted.
Dave.

AFL in NJ · Jun 12, 2008

Tim,

Sorry to hear of this cruddy event, the good news is that all that tuning and work on your combination will still be there once you figure out what exactly needs replacing.....hopefully its just a tear down and rebuild with new gaskets.

Regards,
Aaron

dave6666 · Jun 12, 2008

davem said:
Sorry about your engine.

From your description, I really don't think the length of the plugs had much to do with your problem, your tune was just too close to the knock threshold. Just because you can't readily hear it does not mean it's not there.

If the plugs were hitting you would have found out as soon as you turned the engine over.

I suspect the pistons/rings/ring lands are broken due to knock.

Keep us posted.
Dave.

Have to agree.

Other Dave.

SYNFULL · Jun 12, 2008

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. You and I both started on the self installed s/c mission about the same time. I read many of your posts and got a lot of good info from them. I don't know if you read my post but I had similar problems with detonation which forced me to take the heads off again when coolant came flying out. I ended up finding 2 broken valve guides which if not replaced now would have created a disaster. Now my car has been down for almost a month and it will be several thousand dollars by the time it's right. Something neither of us was planning on in addition to the s/c and everything else. If there is anything I can help with - tools or parts I may have let me know.

Gary

plumcrazy · Jun 12, 2008

davem said:
I suspect the pistons/rings/ring lands are broken due to knock.

oh yeah, i forgot about that. my bet is that as well. been there, done that

BOTTLEFED · Jun 12, 2008

Well the heads are off
and it is worse than I had hoped :pile: