Why no electronic stability control, etc?

Chuck 98 RT/10

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What a bunch of hypocrites!!!!! You already have a lot of "nanny" technology in your Vipers. I haven't heard of anybody removing their nanny options like air conditioning, power steering, power brakes, power windows, stereo systems, ABS, alarm systems, etc. If it wasn't for technology, we'd all still be living in caves. Remember this: If you're not moving forward, you're moving backwards.
Also, if an option can save vipers from being crashed and save lives, it seems to me like a good thing.

I don't have A/C on my 97 and it hasn't worked on my 98 in years. I also don't have a stereo in my 97 and the stereo in my 98 hasn't worked for even longer than the AC hasn't worked.

ABS :lmao:

Develop a steering gear for manual operation and I'll buy it. That will mean less fluids to change, less parts to repair, less weight and about 1.5 more HP.

Power brakes, power windows, alarm systems? You can't be serious. Stick around a while and learn what is meant by the term "electronic nannies".
 

Leslie

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I agree with a lot of the guys here about what the Viper stands for and it's uniqueness to other known american sports cars....the Viper's 'mantra' has always been brute force and not meant for the driver who is lame at heart.
 

2000_Black_RT10

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Also, if an option can save vipers from being crashed and save lives, it seems to me like a good thing.

I have a super high tech computer in my Viper, it controls everything (steering, gas, brakes, etc..).. but now it gets jealous of my wife... and I have to sweet talk my Viper when it's driving me around too fast.. please don't crash us, it's just you and me... please don't crash... HELP!!

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1994viper

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Don’t we love this topic? Pushing a one-way opinion for 3 pages.

BTW, I got a real car, and I like it the way it is. Except for a useless and leaky A/C, which I should remove to make the motor run cooler.
And maybe I can also save few pounds by removing the stereo installed by the previous owner. I can’t hear it anyway while the car is driving.

Also, a properly designed P.S. delete system would give a better feel of the car, I think.

I would still like to keep my fuel injection though
:drive:
 

Guy

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I wouldn't be surprised to see the Ferrari stability control utilized sometime in the future as as option :)

Now that would be interesting... On the other hand, the Viper is a polar opposite of the Ferrari, and Ferrari has been known to hog technologies, and never properly share ;) (Maserati for example)

Would the Viper survive if the average service started to cost $2000 and the car became less reliable?? I highly doubt it. I hope it only gets good toys from the Fiat family..
 
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ssnaked

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The Viper platform needs to survive. The industry around Viper needs the plaform to continue to grow and not shrink away. There are parts suppliers, fabricators, tuners, the VRL, Viper Days, and yes the VCA. The hard questions need to be asked. Is stability control being developed for Viper? What else needs to be developed to keep Viper alive? Evolution will lead to survival. Survival will enhance the legacy of 25,000 Vipers already out there and bring new owners with passion into the fold.
 

Konza800

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Like everyone else I love the lack of nanny tech in my Viper. But I'm on the fence about the ABS. After all, the ABS only engages after you have crossed the limit. And unlike other nannies, you know when it engages so you have that feedback. I guess I really don't see how it can negatively affect your driving skills but it can save your car if you do happen to make a mistake.

As for the other nannies:
I was at a track day this summer with the Audi club. A guy driving a beautiful A6 was pretty fast but he had his traction control turned on. After he found out that my Viper didn't have TC he decided that he was going to turn it off for his last track session. After the session was over I asked him how it went and he said that he turned his car sideways in the first turn and it scared him so bad that he turned it right back on. I just smiled. He was making driving mistakes and had no idea because his nannies were doing the hard parts.

Anybody know if the A6 comes with a nanny to clean your shorts?
 

FastestBusaAround

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As an owner of an 08 Z06 and soon to add a Gen IV Vert to the stable, I just had to let some of you know that even with T/C ON, you can easily break the car loose if that's what turns your crank...so I'm not sure why all the negative response about adding stability control to a Viper. Call 'em all the NANNY aids all you wish, but the Z06 is a formidable foe for the Viper, anytime, anywhere, T/C on or off. They're both serious cars, each in their own right...

As far as manual transmission go, yup, they're outdated and slower than auto's at the strip...though I still prefer driving a stick myself and would not buy an Auto, even if Viper's had them.
 

2000_Black_RT10

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As an owner of an 08 Z06 and soon to add a Gen IV Vert to the stable, I just had to let some of you know that even with T/C ON, you can easily break the car loose if that's what turns your crank...so I'm not sure why all the negative response about adding stability control to a Viper. Call 'em all the NANNY aids all you wish, but the Z06 is a formidable foe for the Viper, anytime, anywhere, T/C on or off. They're both serious cars, each in their own right...

You're talking about 2 different things.. there's Traction Control and Active Handling on a Corvette.

Traction Control prevents tire slip on take -off.

Active Handling / Electronic Stability Control controls braking at all corners along with detecting the steering wheel position, yaw and lateral inputs while going around corners.
 

Leslie

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As for the other nannies:
I was at a track day this summer with the Audi club. A guy driving a beautiful A6 was pretty fast but he had his traction control turned on. After he found out that my Viper didn't have TC he decided that he was going to turn it off for his last track session. After the session was over I asked him how it went and he said that he turned his car sideways in the first turn and it scared him so bad that he turned it right back on. I just smiled. He was making driving mistakes and had no idea because his nannies were doing the hard parts.

Anybody know if the A6 comes with a nanny to clean your shorts?

It sounds like the car is still driving HIM around, at some point HE will be driving and want that control, then he can turn it off and really give everyone a run for their money haha.

I ran for years in my Z06 at roadcourses with everything on (traction and a/h), then as I learned to drive it was slowing me down, I was harder on brakes and wearing through tires. Once I turned it all off I was going much faster and not as ******* equipment.

I have to admit my first track day in the Viper I was a little nervous, now after a short 2 mos and 6 track wknds I can't EVER imagine driving anything else! I can't wait 'til I get even more seat time:2tu:
 
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2000_Black_RT10

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It sounds like the car is still driving HIM around, at some point HE will be driving and want that control, then he can turn it off and really give everyone a run for their money haha.

I ran for years in my Z06 at roadcourses with everything on (traction and a/h), then as I learned to drive it was slowing me down, I was harder on brakes and wearing through tires. Once I turned it all off I was going much faster and not as ******* equipment.

I have to admit my first track day in the Viper I was a little nervous, now after 2 mos and 6 wknds I can't EVER imagine driving anything else! I can't wait 'til I get even more seat time:2tu:

Excellent example Leslie.

As I mentioned before.. manufacturers design a vehicle for the masses.. They need to adjust the stability control dynamics for the most common driver (for safety). Leslie surely doesn't fall into this category, guessing... probably within the top 5% Corvette drivers that actually race their car at the track.

Production stats / options for the 09 Corvette..
http://www.corvetteconti.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009productionstats.pdf

That's pretty much the point.. approximately 10 times more Corvettes are produced each year compared to Vipers. Why offer or develop an electronic stability control system for such a low volume car such as the Viper and jack up the price? Too much diversity.. not enough quantity..
 

Martin

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That's pretty much the point.. approximately 10 times more Corvettes are produced each year compared to Vipers. Why offer or develop an electronic stability control system for such a low volume car such as the Viper and jack up the price? Too much diversity.. not enough quantity..

There's the rub. The Viper is a low production car (and I like it that way) but there is a business case to be made to transform it into a higher production car. The Vette is less expensive than the Viper, but if it were produced in low quantities like the Viper is, I'd wager that the price would skyrocket. Because the Vette is a high production car, adding stability control isn't too difficult because the costs can be amortized over a lot of cars. That wouldn't be the case with the Viper - as long as it is a low production car.

Now, if something like stability control were added to the Viper, would it increase it's appeal so that demand would go up? I have my doubts - I don't know of anyone who based their decision to buy a sports car such as a Ferrari on the availability of stability control. I think the same would be true with Viper. But, Ferrari did implement a very good system that doesn't seem to make many people complain - and there is the option of turning it off.

When it really comes down to it, the only reason I can see to justify adding stabilty control would be to increase market share for the car in the near term. Since I doubt it would actually increase market share, I doubt we'll see it.

If the car is around past 2012, we'll almost certainly see stability control added to the vehicle. Given the choice of having no car or one with stability control, I don't think I'd have a problem seeing the Viper platform survive with ESC - even if mine will have a piece of black electrical tape covering an ESC switch that's permanently in the off position :)
 

FastZilla

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I feel if the Viper is going to go "main stream" and have a mainframe installed in the trunk the let it die on top! Please don't let the viper go the way of the Mustang. It took almost 25 years to get the "Mustang" back (1970-2005), same with the Camero, Challenger. The Viper is the wild beast (wolf, hyena, jackal). Please don't turn it into a domesticated lap dog (chihuahua, jack russel, lab). It's not about technology (cars that talk to you & change your socks) - it's about brute force & head trauma.

The Gen4 is almost a lap dog compared to the Gen1....sorry...
 

FastestBusaAround

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You're talking about 2 different things.. there's Traction Control and Active Handling on a Corvette.

Traction Control prevents tire slip on take -off.

Active Handling / Electronic Stability Control controls braking at all corners along with detecting the steering wheel position, yaw and lateral inputs while going around corners.

You're right - I wasn't thinking...but it's all controlled by one single button...so you can kill it, drive it in competition mode or leave it all on...sorry if I wasn't clear. In any case, I think my point was made - thanks for the correction though.:2tu:
 

VENOMAHOLIC

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As an owner of an 08 Z06 and soon to add a Gen IV Vert to the stable, I just had to let some of you know that even with T/C ON, you can easily break the car loose if that's what turns your crank...so I'm not sure why all the negative response about adding stability control to a Viper. Call 'em all the NANNY aids all you wish, but the Z06 is a formidable foe for the Viper, anytime, anywhere, T/C on or off. They're both serious cars, each in their own right...

As far as manual transmission go, yup, they're outdated and slower than auto's at the strip...though I still prefer driving a stick myself and would not buy an Auto, even if Viper's had them.

Nobody ever said the 06 and newer Z06 was slow. It is a beast of a ride. It would be my second choice to a Gen IV as my next ride. I am just old enough to appreciate
and prefer tech-free cars both for driving and working on. I am glad both exist along with the rest because back in the 80's this current golden age would have been unthinkible.
 

2000_Black_RT10

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You're right - I wasn't thinking...but it's all controlled by one single button...so you can kill it, drive it in competition mode or leave it all on...sorry if I wasn't clear. In any case, I think my point was made - thanks for the correction though.:2tu:

That's cool, still a good topic of discussion..

Electronic aids.. even a hot debate in the F1 industry such as Traction Control.. quoting "they have to show what they can do without traction control".. see video..

F1 without Traction Control - Car Videos on StreetFire
 

Disturbed

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So why doesn't Dodge offer options like electronic stability control, traction control, or launch control on the Viper? It seems to me, it would make the car a lot safer to drive for the average driver. It can be turned off if you don't want it. The Viper has the reputation for being scary to drive, especially in the rain. Perhaps with these features, more people might buy Vipers and help to keep the Viper brand from going under.



They do not go on Vipers.


This is why we have the GTR and Vette.


If you want to boost the sales of the Viper...make it even more of a monster.

The Viper is a Driver's car. If your not pushing the car hard, you don't understand.
 
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Cop Magnet

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Playing devil's advocate (remember I do drive a Viper, in fact just bought my second one, and there's a reason for that):

What is the goal of a car company in producing a car for sale to the public?
Is it to appeal to a small but vocal crowd of purists who want to maintain the rawness, driver input, need for driver skill, and other factors mentioned above? Skills that--let's face it--are gradually diminishing in the general public?

Or is the goal to sell as many cars for as much of a profit margin as possible? Remember, we are not talking about what YOU want, but what is the goal of the automotive company?

I have to say that Dodge has done an incredible job of keeping the car a purist's car despite every economic incentive not to. Just like the great bands sell out over time, manufacturers draw a following with an appealing first entry, only to transition to a watered-down version eventually. This is the nature of business. Sure, Dodge has done a lot of things to make the car more marketable to the masses--many you don't even think of. But believe me, those changes have been made and generally accepted. Beyond this, Dodge has kept true to the basic principles that the Viper line was founded upon.

Can this purity continue in the face of the current economic hardships? I doubt it. This is why many thought the current year would be the last produced. Maybe when gas was a mere $2 :0 and the economy was flush, Dodge could produce this car for a small, die-hard band of automotive purists. But as this population of potential buyers shrinks, the market turns, the need for purely profitable lines grows, the demand for efficient production lines maximizing the resources of the company grows, and the "purists" car becomes more of an economic anachronism, something will have to give.

But this is nothing new. Changes like the current styling of the GenIII and IV were made to sell cars to the masses. You think they could not have changed the body style in 6 years despite all the purists complaining the old Gen looked better?? What do you think of the little airbag sensor for your passenger, run-flats for you GenIII guys, ABS whether mandated or not, the drive-by-wire that prevents you from getting throttle closure if you lift, and all the other nanny's you have now? Hell, even roadside assistance is a nanny for whimps...a REAL driver will be prepared with quarters for a phone booth.

What I am saying is it is a gradual process and one you are already involved with, so don't complain when somebody points to the end of the line in this progression and asks the obvious. Besides, ultimately the reason this car is built is not singularly for you and me and what we want. It is built for the cumulative you and me and that includes a lot of people with different visions of what is a reasonable car to own. While we buy the cars, they are built under the direction of Dodge, DM, Cerebrus, Fiat, or whoever. And they have built it and will build it for sales. Not for "purity". It was nice while it lasted, and what is left is nice, and we can hope the next Gen maintains some purity. But it will be lost eventually.
 
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2000_Black_RT10

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But this is nothing new. Changes like the current styling of the GenIII and IV were made to sell cars to the masses. You think they could not have changed the body style in 6 years despite all the purists complaining the old Gen looked better??

Valid point if the car was only intended for the masses, but a point you may have missed regarding body style change (more aerodynamic, straightening the lines) was that Chrysler intended to compete more in the GT series, mid engine was even contemplated and mocked up. I distinctly remember when I was working in Featherstone (can we blame Daimler?), not sure.. but the plug was pulled for racing support when the Gen4 design was being wrapped up.. Now you're only left with a street car to sell..
 

ViperGeorge

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I like the Viper's raw format and would not want any of the nanny features on the track with the exception of ABS. At VOI 7 the SRT engineers were talking about the addition of ABS and they said it was the only way for the Viper to kick asp in the 0-100-0 challenge. It could out accelerate anything but wouldn't stop as well even with a skilled driver. Hence its times were not as good. Given this they added ABS. ABS has also saved me flat spotting tires when I went into the corner too deeply.

Having said that I see no reason not to include some additional (non-weight adding) nanny features like traction control, stability control, and launch control as long as they can be completely turned off. I drive my Vipers in all kinds of weather, I even got stuck in a snow storm once crossing the Rockies and I have to tell you traction control would have been a welcome addition at that point. It scared the heck out of me and I've been driving Vipers for 11 years.

The addition of some of these features would also attract more buyers and solidify the business case for maintaining the Viper platform. Let's face it there are only so many people that want a raw performance car like the Viper and that can also afford to buy one. Adding some nanny controls would expand the buyer list.

And why should anyone care if the other guy has his traction control on as long as you can turn yours off? How many Vipers have been wrecked by people who underestimated the car? How many people were hurt or killed in these wrecks? Yea I know some people are just jerks and have no business driving anything other than a Prius in the first place. I wish the Government would mandate more thorough driver education instead of putting it on the car companies to build a car that can't crash but that's life today and the Viper needs to deal with it.

It would also get the car more respect in the car mags where the weenies seem unable to get around the lack of some of these features. I realize that there are folks here that thought they stopped making Vipers when they added roll up windows but the market changes and Dodge has done a pretty darn good job of staying true to the concept while improving the platform. Truth is Dodge is in this to make money so they need people to buy more Vipers. If they do then they will have the impetus to improve the platform and add more of the things that we want like power (a factory supercharger would be awesome).

While it is clear that many of you would buy a new Viper if Dodge made one that looked like a Gen 1/2 and had 600 HP, there are many others that would only buy one if it had some of the features that so many here hate. In today's world I suspect the latter group is larger. But this is all just my 2 cents and will probably be considered the ravings of a lunatic by many. So let the bashing begin, I'm ready.:spank:
 

dave6666

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Explaining Viper things to you
WOW!!! .828% is gone...I think that is a great # consider since that

Enzo 3.2% too bad they didn't give out the total for the vettes since they have all the fancy BS.

That's only cars they have pics of. The actual figures are surely much higher for the Viper, as I know most of the wrecked (totaled) cars reported on this forum were not at that site.

Wrecked Enzos make front page Fox/CNN headlines so those numbers are probably accurate.
 

cash84

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That's only cars they have pics of. The actual figures are surely much higher for the Viper, as I know most of the wrecked (totaled) cars reported on this forum were not at that site.

Wrecked Enzos make front page Fox/CNN headlines so those numbers are probably accurate.

Thats what I kinda figured. Was surprise it be that low. The more crashes...the more my car is worth:D even tho I don't plan on selling it haha
 
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