***?? $3.00 piston rods?

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black mamba1

black mamba1

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Its called jumping over the dollars to save the nickels. Why save a few dollars and risk blowing a $30,000 engine, and ******* off a loyal car enthusiast that is only going to tell other car enthusiasts what happened?

Oh, I know why....its called stupidity.
But I still love my Viper.:drive:
 

Viper Wizard

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Dan is absolutely correct. The 2003 rods were the strongest of any year Viper. The forged steel with cracked cap is the best of both worlds. Significantly stronger (not just more ductile but stronger as well) than the later PM rods. I believe the weakest aspect of the PM rods is for overspeed (tensile failure). Of course a spun bearing will provide significant heat and bending load to take out any rod. Just depends how hot and how much bearing drag it causes.

Okay here's the story on the 03 rods: They ARE NOT forged steel!! Forged steel WILL not crack! They will ONLY bend! 03 rods are forged PM! The ONLY reason they are stronger is because there is more materiel on them! This is right from my machine shop and my guys build 3000HP top fuel drag motors. I'm going with my guys as to what they tell me.
 

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Okay here's the story on the 03 rods: They ARE NOT forged steel!! Forged steel WILL not crack! They will ONLY bend! 03 rods are forged PM! The ONLY reason they are stronger is because there is more materiel on them! This is right from my machine shop and my guys build 3000HP top fuel drag motors. I'm going with my guys as to what they tell me.

Chuck,

I am sorry to continue to have to go againt you on this one, but your machine shop is WRONG. Have they never heard of a steel alloy called C-70? It is a "drop forgable" steel for connecting rods designed SPECIFICALLY to be able to be cracked for that type of cap separation design.

Trust me on this one, I have spent the last two years of my life literally dedicated to the redesign of the SRT engine, and eliminating all of its faults. Months of that alone were spent on the rotating assembly, and the rods were a large subject of research and testing during that time. I have far more time dealing with connecting rod manufacturers than I care to, and even their concensus is the same as mine, Drop Forged Cracked Cap 03, and Powdered Metal Cracked Cap 04+.



Here it is for you:

STUDY CONFIRMS FORGED CRACKABLE STEEL CONNECTING RODS COST LESS AND PERFORM BETTER THAN FORGED POWDER METAL RODS

Detroit, MI, July 20, 2004 - Using a steel relatively new to North America, automotive engine makers can reduce the cost for making connecting rods by 25 percent, and they can reduce mass about 10 percent, while enhancing performance and durability.
The steel is C-70, a crackable steel that has been widely used in Europe but not in North America. The alloying elements in C-70 permit hardening of forged connecting rods subjected to controlled cooling following forging. Subsequent heat-treating is not required. North America steelmakers will produce C-70 for the automotive market.
Crackable steel allows the connecting rod cap to be separated from the connecting rod such that the mating surfaces do not require machining. This saves numerous steps in the machining process. When the rod is attached to the crankshaft and the cap reattached with bolts, the mating surfaces join in what is almost a perfect joint at the atomic level.
North American engine makers currently use forged powder metal manufactured blanks, which have the advantage of being near net shape thus reducing material waste. However, the cost of the blank is high due to the high material cost and sophisticated manufacturing techniques. With steel forging, the material is inexpensive and the rough part manufacturing process is cost effective. Bringing the part to final dimensions under tight tolerance, however, can result in high expenditure for machining, as the forged blank usually contains excess material.
According to David Anderson, director, AISI Bar and Rod Programs, “Sixty (60) percent of the North American market for connecting rods in 2003 was supplied by the powder metal forging industry. From 35 to 40 percent were forged steel.
“For engines imported from Europe or Asia, 95 percent used forged steel connecting rods, which is standard practice in those countries,” said Anderson. “European and Asian automobiles are usually smaller than those used in North America and as a consequence those engines are usually smaller and operate at higher rpm. The higher rpm puts greater stress on the operating equipment including connecting rods. Engine manufacturers in those countries use C-70 or a microalloy crackable steel for forged connecting rods. Total annual rod production in Europe is approximately 80 million units; in North America total rod production is approximately 100 million.
Due to its large volume production, it is only logical that optimization of the connecting rod for its weight or volume will result in large-scale savings. It can also achieve the objective of reducing the weight of the engine component, thus reducing inertia loads, reducing engine weight and improving engine performance and fuel economy.
Full details are contained in a paper titled Dynamic Load Analysis and Optimization of Connecting Rods, May 2004, available at the AISI website.
The study on which this paper is based was conducted by a candidate for Master’s of Science Degree in Mechanical Engineering, Pravardhan S. Shenoy, at the University of Toledo. American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI) funded Mr. Shenoy’s research. Thesis advisor was Dr. Ali Fatemi.
This research project investigated weight and cost reduction opportunities that steel forged connecting rods offer. The connecting rod chosen for this project belonged to a mid size sedan and was supplied by an automotive OEM. First, the connecting rod was digitized. Load analysis was performed based on the input from the OEM, which consisted of the crank radius, piston diameter, the piston assembly mass, and the pressure-crank angle diagram, using analytical techniques and computer-based mechanism simulation tools (IDEAS and ADAMS). Quasi-dynamic FEA was then performed using the results from load analysis to gain insight on the structural behavior of the connecting rod and to determine the design loads for optimization.
Optimization was performed to reduce weight and manufacturing cost. Cost was reduced by changing the material of the current forged steel connecting rod to crackable forged steel (C-70). While reducing the weight, the static strength, fatigue strength, and the buckling load factor were taken into account. The following conclusions can be drawn from the optimization part of the study:
  • Fatigue strength was the most significant factor (design driving factor) in the optimization of this connecting rod.
  • The connecting rod was optimized under a load range comprising the dynamic load at 360o crank angle at maximum engine speed and the maximum gas load. This connecting rod satisfied all the constraints defined and was found to be satisfactory at other crank angles also.
  • At locations like the cap-rod outer edge, the extreme end of the cap, and the surface of the piston pin end bore, the stresses were observed to be significantly lower under conditions of assembly (with bearings, crankshaft and piston pin and bushing), when compared to stresses predicted by cosine loading (tensile load).
  • The optimized geometry is 10% lighter and cost analysis indicated it would be 25% less expensive than the current steel forged connecting rod, in spite of lower strength of C-70 steel compared to the existing forged steel. PM connecting rods can be replaced by fracture splitable steel forged connecting rods with an expected cost reduction of about 15% or higher, with similar or better fatigue behavior.
  • By using other facture crackable materials such as microalloyed steels having higher yield strength and endurance limit, the weight at the piston pin end and the crank end can be further reduced. Weight reduction in the shank region is, however, limited by manufacturing constraints.
Under the auspices of the American Iron and Steel Institute, the Bar and Rod Market Development Group strives to grow the market for value-added steel bar and rod products. With five member companies, the group pursues this goal through two task forces committed to developing innovative solutions to the challenges facing their clients and the steel industry. These task forces are Automotive/Heavy Equipment and Construction/Infrastructure.
Bar and Rod Market Development Group Member Companies:

Chaparral Steel
Ispat Inland Bar Company
MACSTEEL
Nucor Corporation
The Timken Company
 
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plumcrazy

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Dan, if you have anything to do with TIMKEN, i gotta trust ya. they used to be one of the best in construction bits when i was selling their stuff.
 
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black mamba1

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Sooo....basically, the 04 piston rods ****, right? I believe we can all agree on that. We simply need to upgrade them if you have an 04 b4 you have a near catastrophe like I almost did. AND many if not most of you guys are going to mod your cars for increased power, YOU absolutely must upgrade them if you are going that route. Call Chuck Tator or Final GTS, both of these guys know what they are talking about.
 

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Or going back to what was posted earlier... if it fails then Dodge will be picking up the replacement of the new parts and potentially new engine. I will continue to drive my 04 as I have and if it happens it happens.

P.S. I love the way some people post in here as everything they say is a fact only to be proven wrong later. Thats why I dont get caught up too much on the rumor mill... everyone is an expert. Or should I type it EXPERT.
 

androbud

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Having a degree in Metallurgy I will tell you that both of you could be right. You can actually get parts made from the same base material to achieve different densities. PM parts CAN BE DROP FORGED as well.

I can clear this up later, but I just had an awful night and I'm tired.
 

Viper Specialty

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Having a degree in Metallurgy I will tell you that both of you could be right. You can actually get parts made from the same base material to achieve different densities. PM parts CAN BE DROP FORGED as well.

I can clear this up later, but I just had an awful night and I'm tired.

Yes, that is correct. (not that I am telling you something you dont already know)

In fact, as far as I know all PM connecting rods are technically "forged" as part of the production process. The big difference if how they start. One starts as metal powder, the other starts as a "blank" or a "billet" you could say. For the sake of not confusing anyone at a glance, I have omitted any reference to "forging" in regards to PM rods, as they arent the type of "forged rods" that everyone is refering to.

A PM rod is basically a mold filled with powder, and then heated and squeezed into its final shape, this squeezing could be called forging, but technically does not fit the bill as forging because it is squeezing something with no prior finalized shape or grain structure. a "Forged" rod is a billet which is heated and hammered by machine into a final shape, having a definite final grain structure and specific density.
 
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black mamba1

black mamba1

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I was a design engineer w/ Dupont (B.S. Mechanical Engineering 1987) before I got into real estate and mortgages to make roughly 10x more money! But I remember working on a very challenging project involving screw shafts on screw conveyers failing seemingly w/out cause. Closer analysis revealed the failures were fatigue failures coming from stress fractures. Prior to my taking over the project other engineers were simply going to stronger and stronger metals, finally ending up w/ a metal known as 17ph (referring to how the metal was produced). 17ph was the strongest metal for this application at the time (1990). Problem was, while 17 ph shafts could take 4 to 5 times the loading along all axi as the other metals, its ability to be ductile was about 1/10th of the regular metals. As a result the fatigue stress fractures actually caused these shafts to fail just a quickly as the other metal shafts. The more I read here about these rods, the more it seems like we may be dealing w/ a similar problem. Yes, the way metals are quenched and the materials used and how they come together does affect the lattice structure of the final material, and does effect its strength and durability under loading along various axi and its ability to sustain lfe cycles...while the 04 rods may be "stronger" under normal predicted design loading for Gen 3 engines, they may (and apparently are) much weaker under unpredicted stresses. And yes, this is definitley a problem for the materials/metallurgy engineers to solve.

It seems as if both Final GTS and Chuck Tator have a good handle on how to cure this problem, which ultimately is what really matters.
 
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