Spinning Out.......

Tusc

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There have been some recent posts concerning the number of Vipers that have been wrecked and/or those that have spun out. The general rule I pick up is that there are Viper owners that have spun and Viper owners that have yet to do the dose-do. I'm going on several interviews this week and next now that I'm licensed, which puts me 1 step closer to getting my first Viper. Having driven one for a short period, they seem very competent on the road. I don't intend to compete with the car in any organized races or club events (not early on, anyway), but I am curious how many of you have spun the car when you've just been out driving. That means "normal" driving if there is such a thing and purposeful "spirited" driving.

I don't compete, nor do I even belong to the SCCA, but I am generally ackownledged among my group of friends as being one of the top drivers. I would rate myself as being at the top end of the list as far as regular drivers go, but I'm no Derek Bell.

What I'm getting at is - how likely are owners to spin their cars if they are experienced and fairly skilled?
 

ElDiablo Viper

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My instructor spun my car with me in it at the track. I was close myself to do it a couple times on the track but recovered. Also how many cars have 480RWTQ (my car dyned)...this makes the Viper easy to spin if you get on the gas too quickly or in a wrong gear.

BTW, by what standarts your friends rated you? Is that because you drive 55 or you speed and never crashed?
 

treynor

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It's pretty easy to do. I've driven open-wheel race cars with slicks and ground effects, and the Viper's easier to spin than they are. You have to be right on top of it when it starts to get loose.
 
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Tusc

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Probably because I speed and never crashed :shocked: Seriously, one buddy is a ********* drag racer and another is on my level as far as driving. The difference is that although we can and have both pushed our cars to the limits, he takes chances while I plan ahead and play it safe. I will say that I'm probably a better drag racer than I am with my skills through the corners, but I've never paid to go through a driving school. Professional drivers would see me as an enthusiast while mid-life crisis owners would definitely see me as the guy showing them the tail lights.

As far as my wallet and my common sense will afford, right now I'm at the top of my game ;) LOL
 

Gavin

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"The difference is that although we can and have both pushed our cars to the limits, he takes chances while I plan ahead and play it safe."

I think you have got to be kidding - tell me how you push your car to the limit and through this "planning" - to play it safe. Further if you are doing this on the street you put your life and others in danger. That's simply idotic.

Go to a driving school or an open track weekend and then talk about your driving skills.

If you only do this, "take you car to the limit", at the track, then I apologize and pull my head in!!
 
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Tusc

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Gavin, YEARS of careful preparation. No cars, no intersections, no pedestrians. Just you, the car, and....... #@*%, a deer! The only person's safety that I risk is my own, and I like to limit that risk as much as possible. On the occasions when I've intended to "open her up," whether it has been the C5, the RS, or a car I have worked on, I check the car before I go out and I check the roads where I plan to go before making a run.

I know it sounds very anti-climactic since most drivers will just go out and hit it without this "unnecesary attention," but that is not me. During the day, with children, traffic, stop lights, etc... I do drive right around 70 on the highway unless traffic is moving faster. But let me reiterate that when I take a car out with a purpose in mind, I work to control for as many variables as possible.

Keys for me are:
-time of day in relation to number of cars potentially on the road
-the road itself: is it well maintained? is it a highway or a country road? are there houses close to the pavement? what about telephone poles? do I have a long unobstructed view of what is ahead of me? do state troopers often set up shop out here? what about water runoff? where are there intersections? how well is it lit, or isn't it?
-the car: I check the brakes, fluids, and tires for wear and psi (pretty worn right now)
-weather and temperature: as they relate to the air, the road, my tires, surroundings, visibility, and general safety.
-God: have I prayed lately, and does he intend to take me now?

99% of the time I am just another commuter avoiding oglers and folks that careen through traffic risking the safety of dozens of people while trying to get home 2 minutes ahead of everyone else. In the Summer I like to hit shows on the weekends or cruises during the week for dinner, but mostly I just enjoy cruising with the windows and/or top down.

Let me tell you how I draw a comparison to my buddy the Italian Sales Manager for a local GM dealer. I am willing to bet that he is probably a slightly better driver than I am when it comes to road courses. Since he has become sales manager, he has had his pick of cars to drive from the lot and also gets to choose what goes on the lot. In this case, he likes to rotate C5s through the dealership on a regular basis. They all get beaten on. Not driven hard, but purposefully abused. In some ways, I can see where that is liberating, but as skilled a driver as he is he will drive like that all day. I've seen him go 160 towards traffic, slow to 120 and weave between them on a 2 lane road with a 45mph speed limit, come to a stop light, cut over the yellow line and grab the e-brake while sliding/spinning through a busy 4-way intersection in the middle of the day. THAT, to me, is the direct antithesis of good driving. No matter how good a move like that might look on a video or how many guys on similar message boards might consider a move like that to be "cool," he's playing a dangerous game and there are more pieces on the board than his own.

When you get down to it, there is no reason for ANYONE to take a C5 or a GTS to redline in 5th gear on any public road. Nor is there a reason for anyone to polish their driving skills by practicing on some roads in the middle of nowhere. It's a fact that it is inherently NOT safe for the person or people involved to be engaging in these activities, and if we must then we should always consider others first. I have driven a wrecker for a friend before and seen how accidents end up and I have worked in facilities for those that survive the accidents - it can be both gory and heartbreaking. And although my main hobby involves cars (both driving AND working on them) safety is always my number one concern. Accordingly, "pushing it to the limit" becomes a rarified event.

So - am I idiotic in my approach? To some degree, yes, of course. If I could afford it regularly and there was one within 2 hours drive of me, I would be on a prepared track. But then I would run the greatest risk of all - joining the ranks of those who have depended on the invisible safety barrier in their heads that says its ok to push a car too hard and wreck it. There is a riskier mentality associated with driving on a race track, despite the fact that every driver out there is (or should be!) just as adamant about making safety their number one priority.
 
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Tusc

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I am just concerned with how the car handles under regular conditions. I am used to spinning from driving the RS when it had the BIG cam, lower stall, and non-computer controlled 700r4. Always a kitten to drive under the stall rpm, but sometimes the tranny would downshift and if you were on a corner you had to grab it quick. Like driving on sand, it had the tendency to kick out or just spin. Now it has a higher stall, a 4L60E tranny, and unfortunately a smaller cam so I can pass the sniffer.

When I get the GTS I intend to keep it exclusively for pleasure driving as opposed to the C5, which I pressed into daily service. Racing or club events are not on my radar screen for the GTS - just cruising, car shows, and an occasional spirited trip into the NY mountains or down a country road.

My interest in the frequency of people spinning stems from the fact that when I drove a GTS it seemed surprisingly more intuitive than I had anticipated and I am curious what it takes to lose control. From the posts, it sounds like the car is in great command of the road but that once it hits a certain threshold it loses it quickly. I'm trying to get a better sense of the car before I have one in the garage. Thanks guys!
 

Roadkill

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Unless you've got your own private road, you are endangering more than deer. While you are praying to god, you'd better throw in a couple lines for that family that is driving home late at night when you come across the median on one of your "prepared" evening outings. I gotta back up the other posters on this board.. go take some driving school classes and get a large dose of common sense, until then I'd recommend you sell your camaro, your vette and get something like a nice dodge neon (there is a nice one on ebay.. all painted up to look like a viper) till you grow out of this stage. Spinning out isn't the issue here, your self proclaimed street racing prowess is.
my 2c
 

jimandela

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Brett,
if you give it too much going into a turn the rear end can and will come around on you.
off a straight line too much gas and yes your sideways.
The torque is a monster.
And yes i have spun on the first day i owned the car.
A very gentle throttle foot is required.
I recently went to a AutoX and the track "pro" who drives a Porsche.
Took out my car for 1 lap. He spun it less than 1/2 way around. Why?
I told him
the torque is a monster!! it is like no other car!!!
He was shocked and thrilled :cool:
JIM :)
 

Gavin

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You kid yourself - a public road is a public road and its no place to take a car to its limits - that stuff is for the track only. You do put other lives at risk period.
 

CarDude

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Let me apoligize first before I post my response to some of the other Viper owners. You are full of crap!!! Why did you buy the Viper...because it looks awesome and it is unbeleivably powerful. I would assure you that each of you has pushed the car maybe when you shouldn't have...so don't lie, or misrepresent yourselves. I wouldn't usally post on something like this (becuase I don't want a bad rep on this site) but some of you sound like a bunch of hypocrites. Why don't you guys sell your Vipers and buy Caravans...as this is a car to drive...maybe not on the edge, but it is made for driving. If you can't handle it park it...

To answer you question Brett 91 RS LT1, I think the car can and will spin-out pretty easy, so you should be very careful when driving the car HARDER on public streets as you assuradly don't want to injury yourself, someone else, or for goodness sakes your Viper.

Again my apoligies for speaking my mind.
 

lleone

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From autocrossing: last year I let a very good and trusted friend drive my Viper at almost all of the FLR SCCA autocrosses. He previously drove a high-power 300Z and has several class championships under his belt. Of course, that car was all top end. We now call him "doughnut boy". I think there are 2 factors that contribute to this. The first is the torque. The second is the way the car responds to simulataneous throttle inputs AND counter steering. In the car with him, I could feel him turn too deep too fast during the pre-spin and then lose it. I'd yell when he was on the edge but his instincts kept him going too far with the counter steer. It's that tricky point where you've counter steered and feathered and the car stops spinning, but is still travelling sideways. Any more steering seems to break the car completely loose. The message here being: be careful and be gentle with your inputs to the car.

From my observations only. I am not a seasoned high speed driver.

Lou
 

Roadkill

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Let me apoligize first before I post my response to some of the other Viper owners. You are full of crap!!! Why did you buy the Viper...because it looks awesome and it is unbeleivably powerful. I would assure you that each of you has pushed the car maybe when you shouldn't have...so don't lie, or misrepresent yourselves. I wouldn't usally post on something like this (becuase I don't want a bad rep on this site) but some of you sound like a bunch of hypocrites. Why don't you guys sell your Vipers and buy Caravans...as this is a car to drive...maybe not on the edge, but it is made for driving. If you can't handle it park it... *snip*
Again my apoligies for speaking my mind.

I think there are some SERIOUS differences between opening your car up Vs. going out, checking conditions and turning your local roads into your racecourse (esp to acquire YEARS of experience doing it). The issue at stake is common sense, If you don't possess a bit of it, then you shouldn't be driving a viper(or a caravan for that matter).
I'm done posting on this issue.. Those that get it, get it. Those that don't, never will.
 

GTSTF

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like everyone else has been saying, the car can and probably will lose the rear end. just buy it, drive it, and get accustomed to it. if you spend too much time worrying, you'll never enjoy it.
 

GTSTF

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and on a side note: Vipers have the widest tires you'll ever drive on the street. so if you have crappy roads like we do here in Chicago, you'll find that the tires don't fit very well in the "ruts" in the pavement. have fun!
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Cardude is right and it sounds to me like this Brett dude doesn’t endanger anyone but himself. Lets face it, there are short (very short) open (clear viewing) sections public roads where all your gonna do is mess up yourself or rack a tree. Nobody here advocates “ricer driving.”

However, if you think you’ve taken your car to the limits and you’ve never tracked it, then you haven’t taken your car to the limits. Go run the 17 turn circuit at Sebring or the 4 miles at Road America for 30 minutes then let me know how close you were to the limit on the street.

The street will be boring after you hit a real track.
 

Gavin

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This guy talks about taking his car to the limit on the street - very different from stomping on it now and then as we all do - hell I'm just taking the guy at his word - "that he drives his car at the limit on the street, on his own, self selected, race course that is also a public road".

He KIDS HIMSELF - I'm making the same point Chuck is - lets get this guy on the track and see if he even knows where the limit of his car is - if he is within a half second a lap of Mumford or Dearing - then he knows roughly where it might be - if he matches the times of those guys, then maybe he knows.

Either way - the street is no place to make a point - he WILL eventually hurt himself or someone else - just a matter of time!
 
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Tusc

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This is SOOOOO much spam bait. Gavin, you don't know me from Peter and likewise in return. Nowhere have I said "that drive [my] car at the limit on the street, on [my] own, self selected, race course that is also a public road." When I speak of limits, I refer to my own as well as the car's. I know that the car is capable of more than I can put to it - hence my statement in my first response that to a racer I would be just another gung-** enthusiast, while to the guy with Heeeeps of money who buys cars like these to impress his friends I would be the much better skilled driver. Let me say that in the 3 years of owning the C5, I have gone out 3 times to find "my" limits in relation to the car's limits in different situations. You react as though every time I get in the car I am acting like I'm flying into turn 1 at Laguna Seca with no thought to braking. I can sit here and go back and forth about what you say/think and respond to multiple comments. But I'll keep it to a low burn and simply say that I don't think you correctly read into what I said about what I do with my cars. The way I "push" my cars is akin to the new driver when his dad takes him to an empty parking lot covered in light snow to teach him how to avoid or control a spin. Right now I feel very much like Secretary of State Colin Powell responding to the French liaison to the UN - your response is not proportionate to the topic at hand and you feel its ok to throw mud from 3000 miles away.

I'd like to think that we could debate this topic calmly as befits a message board of this stature and not make blind stabs at someone on the eastern coast without giving them the chance to retort. I'd expect that from Corral.net, not Vieprclub.org If you want to discuss what I've written way up top of the thread, I'm fine with that - let's hear your story and I'll give you mine again in slow painful detail. But let's keep it straight.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Ya, gotta understand the way “trackers” think Brett. When somebody who’s flogged a few berms hears a track ****** talking about pushing the limits, they remember how humbling their first track event was and the rolleyes are inevitable.

Spend a summer hitting a few track events. At $200 to $300 a day it’s very affordable and you’ll never look at the streets the same way again. LOL
 

Miles B

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Chuck's right. I haven't taken a car on the track (YET)... there aren't many around where I live. However, the first time I took a motorcycle to the track I was both humbled and excited. I realised two things:

1. I had never ever come close to the limits, or even anywhere near true fun on a bike before then. Screwing around on the road was over for me, it's just got nothing on the fun you can have on the track. Flying between two cars on the freeway at 100mph over their speed? No fun compared to seeing the horizon go vertical while rounding a corner at "only" 40mph, then pulling up the front wheel as the road opens back up in front of you.

2. I really knew nothing about riding a motorcycle. I would never act like a smartass about it, or ride stupid and unsafe on the road again. It's not worth it. Road racing is so pointless once you get on the track. Not only is it dangerous to you and others (and it ALWAYS is), it's just plain boring.

The biggest thing I learned was how much I didn't know, and how much I had been doing wrong. There is just SO much more to driving than you can learn on the street... I couldn't have imagined it before I went. Well, as soon as I get a new car, I will find a track and learn to really drive it too. My point is, street racing is just pointless and boring. I have no interest in it any more. Big risk for no reward.

Oh, and in answer to your original question... I've experienced a few cars with the sort of numbers the Viper has. Tends to get the back around pretty fast. Oh well, what fun would a powerful car be if it had no power?!?!
 

Gavin

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Chuck and MilesB speak two truths.
MilesB - you nailed it.

Brett 91 - I'm not slinging mud - think about it - I might have saved you from harm if you learned anything here in these past few days. Try a track event and discover why those of us that do track events are passionate about it ...Hell I live next to Laguna Seca...come stay at my house sometime and do a Skip BArber driving school - thrash their viper around the track - you will be changed forever and you will discover the truth about Vipers and spinning - I'll buy the beer!
Stay Safe
 

Mike H

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The question I think was " Why does a Viper spin out?"
Here are some reasons:
1) Cold Tires
2) Drivers not used to high torque at low RPM's
3) Driver skill....or should I say lack thereof?
4) Showing off
5) Racing on street and avoiding debris, potholes, oil and whatever else.

It is easy to say or think you have taken a car to the "limit" hitting the gas pedal every so often in short straight lines, or driving "fast" in a corner, but beleive me.......you have no clue to what driving "on the limit" really is unless you drive on a race track DESIGNED to be able to take a car to its limits and then some....CONSISTANTLY! When you can do that....in an environment for high speed driving then you can think you are all that.
Hit a race track, whether its a drag strip ora road course....and do it where its safer. Everyone that loves any sportscar will tell you that once you are on a road course their is nothing to compare!
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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stay at my house sometime and do a Skip BArber driving school - I'll buy the beer!

Careful Gavin. If California is anything like Florida and you start offering that kind of hospitality you'll need to install a revolving door.
 

kverges

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Keep the racing on the track. Can't afford it? Not necessarily. If you can afford a C5, you can afford legitimate, sanctioned racing in a real race car and a driving school to boot. For example, I can't afford or justify racing a Viper; the cost of a dedicated race car with a cage and the potential of wadding up the car is outside my budget, so I race Spec Miata and have begun to dabble in Formula Mazda. It's just a matter of priorities - you can have a really fast Viper that you drive really fast on the street, or you can get into a "slower" car that is identically prepared to the car of 20 other guys racing you door to door - then see how good a driver you really are.

But until you have been on a race track with seasoned and skilled racers, I would tone down the self-praise about yoru driving skills; makes you sound a little too much like Rainman: "I'm an excellent driver"
 
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Tusc

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Sounds like a good plan with the beer! We have a Skip Barber school out here at Lime Rock and they apparently give a 25% reduction in cost to VCA members. How cool is that? But to go through all the different schools and classes is still an expensive proposition. Track events DO interest me, but not with such an expensive car, and not with such expensive tires (unless Tirerack.com wants to keep offering regular half-price sales on the Michelins!).

Kverges - you've got a good idea there with the Mazdas. That Rainman comment was good too! A budget fox body Mustang could be a good entry-level racer. Cheap as heck to buy, build, and maintain.
 

Gavin

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OK CHUCK, you're invited too! long as you bring the blonde, the brunette and the redhead (do I have the right Chuck?)

Brett - do a driving school, anyone of them, anywhere - life just will not be the same.

And those Mazda Miatas (sp) they run that spec series here at Laguna Seca - those boys get thru the corners awfully quick - Viper obviously gets them on the straights. Guy having the most fun (that I have seen) is a fella in his 70's driving an old (as in mid sixties) mini cooper-s, leaking oil and burning up plugs - had less than 5K in the car and was tearing up the place.

My theory - if you don't want to run the viper on the track - thats a pretty fair decision - but at least find something that fits the budget and run that.

I kick myself every day for not getting into this sport years ago - Brett you will astound yourself, with what you are willing to give up, to put the dollars together, for a track weekend.
 

Snakester

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Most of the stories that I have read about people spinning out on the streets are with inexperienced or overzealous drivers.
As mentioned, the Viper has tons of torque, and the advice that I had read (and stuck to) was until you get a good feel for the Viper's power delivery, don't punch the gas except when you are pointed straight. And even then imagine an egg under the gas pedal, so you roll onto the throttle rather than punching/stabbing at it.

I had a Corvette before, and the ASR (traction control) was diligent at watching the throttle and wheel slippage, so you could punch the gas, even in the wet, and the computer would back off for you automatically.

The Viper doesn't do this, and also you generally hear the tires when the Vette starts to slide, but the Viper holds on longer, and then lets go without much warning. But you can usually just back off of the throttle (unless you are going way too fast) and the car settles right down.

I've gone to a couple autocross events to get a feel for the break-away point of the tires, but the local events that I went to had the tracks setup for tiny imported cars, so I never got out of first gear.

Straight-out the Viper is closer than most other cars to being a race car, with more power, and less electro-nanny safeguards. I'd say that when driven conservatively, the Viper's actually LESS likely to spin out than a normal car because of it's great grip. But as you drive the car faster, the Viper demands more skill and respect, which you can get from experience (over time) and from training.

-Dean.
 

Steve 00RT/10

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We picked our car up at the factory 3 years ago. As I prepared to drive out of the building, with heart pumping, the team leader for our car leaned in and told me 2 things:
.....Remember the hood sticks out 3 feet past where you can see and watch out for second gear. Very good advice. Most are aware of first gear having lots of torque, but you can easily come around in second if your not careful. With cold tires, you will easily spin at 60 in second gear. You never want to nail the gas in second without your wheels pointed straight. Rutted roads are a real problem here as well. The big tires do not fit in the rut and tends to throw you around. Very disconcerting the first time it happens. Feels like you're losing control. Most times, where I live, Vipers need two hands on the wheel. I have come around (270-360 degrees)autocrossing a couple times. I also have some donut video when I finished off my last set of tires(in a private parking lot). I now have 2 more new sets of rears--looks like fun this summer!

Steve
 
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