Another Intake Question for a Noob

[ScreetHoPrez]

Hey all,
I've been doing some reading and this appears to be a sore subject to some people but I'm trying to decide which way to go as far as an intake solution.
My car is an 02 GTS and performance wise it's completely stock with the exception of a Belanger header-back exhaust.
I'm looking to either go with the JMB intake box or with the VIPAIR (yes I've read the million page post) along with K&N drop ins and smooth tubes.
From what I've gathered, the JMB will net a little more hp, but it is extremely expensive and the main issue is that it offers little to no protection against water intake. The VIPAR/K&N/smooth tube solution is cheaper, but seems to offer less hp, but protects against water intake.
My plan is to complete the intake process and then go with an SCT tuner and do some tuning on the dyno. After that, I'll be saving for a forced induction setup.
What is everyone's opinion?

Thanks in advance,

Rich

 

[plumcrazy]

forced induction is going to scrap what you are doing anyways most likely. do the vipair route IMO

neither one really gives THAT much added HP.

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

forced induction is going to scrap what you are doing anyways most likely. do the vipair route IMO

neither one really gives THAT much added HP.

It's going to be a while before I can afford to go that route, so I'm trying to get the most out of my car with bolt ons.

Thanks

 

[plumcrazy]

you wont feel the 5-6 rwhp difference, save the cash

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

you wont feel the 5-6 rwhp difference, save the cash

What about the VIPAIR combined with the VIPAIR air box design from Hennessey?

 

[plumcrazy]

not sure of the hennessey one. but either way 5-6rwhp aint gonna make much of a difference.

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

not sure of the hennessey one. but either way 5-6rwhp aint gonna make much of a difference.

I'm debating about this: Carbon Fiber Gen 1 or Gen 2 Viper Custom Airbox on eBay.ca (item 330413462403 end time 22-Mar-10 20:34:20 EDT)

Sure, it blows my budget out the window, but if it's worth it then it's justified. I'd rather spend my money on a quality, safe (i.e. no water) solution the first time around.

 

[plumcrazy]

do you plan to drive much in the rain ?

that intake has been discussed in the past and from what i remember, its all good. I think GTS Dean has one and likes it. it sure looks good

and thats steve, owner of vipair selling it. he can be found around here.

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

do you plan to drive much in the rain ?

that intake has been discussed in the past and from what i remember, its all good. I think GTS Dean has one and likes it. it sure looks good

and thats steve, owner of vipair selling it. he can be found around here.

I don't plan on driving it in the rain, but I do plan on driving it and as with my last car, I was caught out in the rain quite a few times. Better safe than sorry.

Yep, Steve. He's been answering a lot of my questions via email and has been really helpful.

 

[Dom426h]

save the cash and just run the stock airbox w/smooths&k&n's.

Going from Stock to SmoothTubes&K&N's is +10hp
Thats a pretty good bang for the buck. To spend 695.00 more for another claimed 5hp dosnt look cost effective to me...

If you Do purchase a box and get to the dyno be sure to do back to back runs of the diff to show us since i have never seen a dyno chart comparison on here despite the claims. Im talking about comparing a Stock airbox w/K&N's&SmoothTubes to the aftermarket.

$$$ better spent on RR's(rollerrockers) if your looking for power and setting yourself up for future FI, or suspension or brake mods

 

[Rollin4]

I'm debating about this: Carbon Fiber Gen 1 or Gen 2 Viper Custom Airbox on eBay.ca (item 330413462403 end time 22-Mar-10 20:34:20 EDT)

Sure, it blows my budget out the window, but if it's worth it then it's justified. I'd rather spend my money on a quality, safe (i.e. no water) solution the first time around.

That sure is nice but $695. If you have alot of CF under the hood I would say get it, if this will be the only piece it will not make much difference in the overall look of the engine....spend your dollars on other mods.

 

[Dom426h]

http://forums.viperclub.org/performance-modifications/521912-power-upgrades-ordered-list.html

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

That sure is nice but $695. If you have alot of CF under the hood I would say get it, if this will be the only piece it will not make much difference in the overall look of the engine....spend your dollars on other mods.

Well, eventually I will be building the car for show as well as go.

http://forums.viperclub.org/performance-modifications/521912-power-upgrades-ordered-list.html

That's a great list! I all ready have the cat back and "high flow cats" area covered. My car made 403 whp and 441 wtq.

I didn't see anything on there about any tuning software (i.e. SCT). Is this worth it with basic bolt ons (intake, exhaust, etc..)?

 

[Dom426h]

o you dont have headers? Definitely go with headers &/or RR's if you are planning on going FI in the future.

SCT, not so much for power for me, but but it cleaned up my A/F ratio and tweaked a couple other minor things like deaccel throttle response. I have an early gen2, not sure about how the creampuffs react to the SCT, you might want to give DCPerformance a call as they can give you Mucho specific infomation and advise

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

o you dont have headers? Definitely go with headers &/or RR's if you are planning on going FI in the future.

SCT, not so much for power for me, but but it cleaned up my A/F ratio and tweaked a couple other minor things like deaccel throttle response. I have an early gen2, not sure about how the creampuffs react to the SCT, you might want to give DCPerformance a call as they can give you Mucho specific infomation and advise

I missed out on the headers (the owner all ready sold them) by the time I bought the rest of the setup. From what I've read (and please, correct me if I'm wrong), headers don't do much on the 2nd Gens... at least not as much as they would on the 1st Gens.

 

[RTTTTed]

The Gen 1s had decent CAST IRON headers so headers on a Gen 1 not only gain 20hp but lighten the car aout 50#. Headers do make a difference on a Gen 2. If you're going with FI later you want 1 3/4" and NO pickles (negative -20rwhp on FI). You get more hp from headers the more hp the engine produces. Not a huge hp difference on stock but quite a large amount on ported heads, cam, 1.7 R Rockers, etc. Headers are easy, make hp and the car sounds better. Often there is a mileage gain.

SCT tuners optimize the tune and f/a mix. Stock there is as much as 35+ hp to be gained by leaning out the mixture and advancing timing. Sometimes the car doesn't get anyting because it alread is close. You have Hi-flows and exhaust? That would lean out the f/a mix and the car comes too fat IN CASE YOU ADD HEADERS, etc. It is a safety/warranty factor that the car comes with.

Rain water is deadly to old cheap stock PAPER air filters. The new Vipers come without rain baffles because they come with cotton filters (same material as the K&Ns. The SRT engineers said (at VOI X seminar) that removing the rain baffle makes no difference (except that you don't want to car wash into the engine) because the rain water is insignificant to the engine running. It may even cause a touch of cleaning to the conbustion chambers. If the old paper air filters get wet at all the fibers stick together and matt, blocking airflow to the engine.

My 98 GTS has an aluminium plate riveted to the top of the airbox thereby removing the rain baffle and adding a couple hp. I also had K&Ns instead of the paper. I have a set of Roe Racing smooth tubes and breather hose in Red silicone (highest quality) hoses. You could buy K&N dual filters (-$100?) cut the top (rain baffle) of your stock airbox off and riviet a flat alum sheet on top, buy my 3 Red smooth tubes ($50 + shipping) and you'd probaly gain 14rwhp(?) for under $200.

Save the other $496 for headers.

If you go to FI and big power then the stock TBs are too small and that means that whatever airbox and tubes you're using are too small as well. Roe superchargers come with a completely different air intake manifold and system so I have a custom built large tube Maecdo intake system and dual cone box open to the nose airpressure (with Roe racing front fascia scoop) 'cause the naca duct scoop is too small for more than 500rwhp. The Paxton ACR I'm buying has it's own air intake because it can't use the stock stuff. A TT system also can't use stock. Therefore whatever air filter system you have would only work with a startere 550rwhp Roe supercharger system. Even at 550rwhp the Naca duct is starting to become restrictive and the Vipair would be the only stock type air box that would continue to supply enough unrestricted air.

I hope this helps clear up a few issues. By the way, most of our larger hp supercharger systems have water or water/methanol injection system to add water to lower intake temp and allow advanced timing. Don't think that a little water can rust your pistons, lol. (Dave 6666 would have said that?)

Ted

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

Thanks for the info. Right now I have Belanger 3" header-back exhaust with no cats.

Eventually I'd like to be around 600-650 whp with some sort of FI, most likely supercharged.

I want to get the most out of the car now with bolt ons. Most likely just the exhaust (that I have all ready), some sort if intake setup (either the JMB or some combination of VIPAIR/airbox/smooth tubes/K&N drop ins and then an SCT tune. Not sure what kind of power that will all net me.

It looks like I may do a cam and roller rockers in the future as well because that seems to be the path that most people take for power.

Headers will be in the future as well.

So, if my ultimate goal is to supercharge it, I should look more towards the K&N dropins and a VIPAIR or more along the lines of the JMB? I see that JMB has an option for the Roe setup, just not sure what that entails.

My main goal in this post is to determine what will make the most hp and still be safe to drive in the rain. From what you're saying, RTTTTed, is that rain doesn't look like it will be much of a factor no matter which setup I choose?

 

[RTTTTed]

Forced Induction and naturally aspirated are completely different. Almost nothing is compatible. N/A engines seldom make over 800rwhp. Forced Induction starts at 550rwhp and easily goes past 2,200rwhp. Nirous Oxide is a form of chemical supercharging that is an extremely easy way to add 100-300rwhp. Instal a $1500 Nitrous System and your car will make 670rwhp right now! Of course your exhaust is the most restrictive part of your system.

Camshafts - n/a you'd want a higher lift, more overlap (60 degrees) and higher rpms. Then you'd need RR ($1000) tubular pushrods ($250), lifters ($700-1000), valve springs and retainers ($350). You'd want to do heads ($5,000-6500)and you'd want the heads shaved a bit to raise the compression. Intake manifold alignhoned and portmatched ($350), bigger TBs ($600) etc. That would probably net about 600rwhp or 700bhp.

Forced Induction - Lowest setting Roe supercharger 5psi $7,900 plus the ehxaust you have now would make about 550rwhp/580rwtq and because the full flat torque curve starts at 2,000rpm figure that hp is worth an extra 15% power compared to Centrifugal supercharger like a Paxton. Standard Paxton is a 580rwhp/540rwtq. sell your stock intake complete for $1,000-1400 and buy a Roe watermeth kit ($400) with a Walbro 255 fuel pump ($150) and change to a 8# pulley. My 98 GTS with airbox aluminium sheet on top, Green filters and smooth tubes dyno'd 598rwhp/644rwtq. I had Roe hiflows and RT exahaust with stock fuel pump and BAP. Shift the Roe about 5,000rpm.

Paxton needs another 8-10 hours extra to instal for another $800-1100(and you can't sell your stock intake). Expect 580-600rwhp with your exhaust. The Paxton drives like stock until about 3,000rpm when it starts to produce boost and hp. Shift the Paxton about 6,000

Then you can add 1.7 Rockers, headers, clutch, Unitrax rear axles, drive shaft loops, short shifter, etc.

Forced Induction likes lower compression while normally aspirated likes high compression.

Th camshaft in my 720rwhp+ Roe supercharged engine is stock 98. Stock cam and lifters save about $3,000 with instal. That's nearly half the cost of a FI system and all your get is about 50hp

600rwhp is not very much for a Forced Induction system and not even worth going Twin Turbo ($15000 for cheap) for only a couple hundred hp. Normally Aspirated requires a lot of parts and money to make 600rwhp. Most builders will raise compression and instal a big cam with $5-6500 worth of heads and that costs a lot of money and it will only net you 600 or a little more. There is an engine or two in the classifieds if you want to check that out. I believe HSSSSSS just bought a 800rwhp na engine for $18,000.

Rain? who cares (except for paper air filters as stated above). I have NO rain baffles in my 440 Duster and No rain baffles in my Viper. Also no rain baffles any aftermarket filter box I've seen. I expect that No Paxton system has ever had rain baffles. The new Viper has cotton filters and NO rain baffles!

Ted

 

[RTTTTed]

I forgot to add that n/a camshafts with high overlap cause the rough idle that you hear with race engines. Overlap is when both intake and exhaust valves are open. This causes severely increased emmissions (if that concerns you) and rough idle because of a lack of vacuum.

FI camshafts have lower overlap because in a forced induction engine you not only lose gases, but boost and fuel through the overlap period. That's why any FI engine runs smoothly. This does not include Roots blown Nitromethanol 5,000rwhp race Hemis though.

Ted

 

[FE 065]

What about the VIPAIR combined with the VIPAIR air box design from Hennessey?

You seem fairly intent on bolting some doo-dad on your car.. Like they said, there isn't much if any HP to be had with typical bolt ons. Some things can even slow you down.

Save for the blower..

 

[Venomiss]

Since you are in town do your self a favor and talk with our VP Jerry.

He can answer your questions and lead you in the right direction.
(If you are very, very nice.)

 

[Ricketts]

save the cash and just run the stock airbox w/smooths&k&n's.

This is what I have and would recommend.

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

Since you are in town do your self a favor and talk with our VP Jerry.

He can answer your questions and lead you in the right direction.
(If you are very, very nice.)

Was Jerry out at the last meet? Which Viper is his?

 

[Venomiss]

Was Jerry out at the last meet? Which Viper is his?

Yes, he was at the last cruise and has a black ACR with red stripe.

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

Yes, he was at the last cruise and has a black ACR with red stripe.

I saw his car, but I don't think I met him.

 

[Fatboy 18]

Thanks for the info. Right now I have Belanger 3" header-back exhaust with no cats.

What's that sound like?

I have standard 2000 headers, currently 'stock cats', and Belanger cat back 3" exhaust, Im trying to work out weather to go with Hi flows or Full cat delete Do you have any sound clips or Videos?

Thanks
Mark.

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

What's that sound like?

I have standard 2000 headers, currently 'stock cats', and Belanger cat back 3" exhaust, Im trying to work out weather to go with Hi flows or Full cat delete Do you have any sound clips or Videos?

Thanks
Mark.

It's loud... teeth jarring loud... but it does sound mean and that's the goal I was going for.

I don't have any clips, but I'll try to get one this week.

 

[Fatboy 18]

Great, look forward to hearing it

Mark

2000 FAST RED GTS No92 ALMS Replica

 

[ScreetHoPrez]

Great, look forward to hearing it

Mark

2000 FAST RED GTS No92 ALMS Replica

Here you go. I shot a quick video today with my iPhone. Not the best quality but it'll give you an idea.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Fatboy 18]

Great, thats it, Im ripping out the cats

Cheers for posting that up

Mark