sambo32
Enthusiast
I had clear bra installed on my viper two weeks ago, and wanted to know how long does it take for all the bubbles to go away. Is there something I can do to help the process of eliminating them.
clear bra
- Thread starter sambo32
- Start date
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
Had clear bras put on both my 08 and 06. Never had any bubbles. Used Venture Shield, the installer was awesome, he went over everything with a blow dryer of some kind.
sambo32
Enthusiast
My installer used ClearMask. Should I go over the bubbles with a blow dryer and just push down on them.
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
I believe there was another thread about this same issue. If memory serves posters were saying the bubbles went away if they were liquid (in which case a hair dryer may help). If they were air bubbles they will never go away. You should ask the installer what gives. All I can say is I had zero bubbles in all the cars I've had done (total of 4 if I include my Mustang and BMW).
DPViper
Viper Owner
I had a few bubbles. The water ones went away and the installer used a needle to remove air bubbles. You can"t see any marks were he used the needle. Good luck.
texas_venom
Enthusiast
Hey Sammy.If you have any bubbles left by now it is more than likely air. Just take a fine needle or pin and pierce he top of them and thne lay them down with your thumb. Its just a little air trapped under the film from where the water dried. its a very easy fix and you will not need to heat them in any way. Give me a call if you have any more questions. I have been swamped with work and just got back from some installs in Oklahoma... now trying to finish out the new shop.
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
+1 on no bubbles. I'm with treesnake.
MTGTS
Enthusiast
I took mine back after about a week and he removed the air bubbles. All good now
eucharistos
Enthusiast
... now trying to finish out the new shop.
where's your new shop?
texas_venom
Enthusiast
"Bubbles".....
You shouldn't have any bubbles.
I don't care what the "installer" told you.
( no offense intended if installer is on here, but there shouldn't be any bubbles in a quality install, period...)
Well I am the installer and I promise you that on any install you will have some bubbles left. I dont care who installs it. Unless its on a flat surface. Its aprt of the install process to have water under left under the film... and it has to cure before all of the water is out and gone. But it does evaporate out.
I have been installing film for over 5 years now and I have done more Vipers than anyone in the coutnry. I have been to 32 states so far this year for install work... so I know what I am talking about. Not trying to brag but people who have had an install or two and have never applied film do not know anything about the process and should not be making comments. It would be like me trying to tell a trader how the stock market works.
Sammy if you have any questions you have my number. Do not apply heat from a hair dryer or a heat gun. Go with wht I recommended through my message and everything will be fine. I do not want to see you ruin the film because some "know it all" gave you bad advice...
Thom
HMMMM...
Doesn't matter how many states or how many installs. Quality is quality. Hell, "EARL Scheib" has painted thousands of cars in 50 states...
So.... because I don't install film, I have no grounds to make a statement from experience on three of my Vipers????.
Since I paid for it, I'll call it the way I see it and the results I have seen.
"It would be like me trying to tell a trader how the stock market works."
I don't need to know how the stock market works, I do know enough that if the trader is losing my money, I question their ability. I don't care if he's been trading in 32 states....or how long.
In other words, results are what matters. If you, the installer, feel that bubbles are OK, great.
I don't.
IMHO....
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
I would have to agree with treesnake, I've had four clear bras installed, three Venture Shield and one other brand. Three were done by the same installer and the fourth by a BMW dealer. None had any bubbles whatsoever. I watched the Venture Shield installer apply 2 of 3. It took him a whole day but there were absolutely NO bubbles anywhere, curved or flat surfaces. So while I too am not an installer and have never tried to install a clear bra, I know a good job when I see one. I would have had a fit if the installer would have left bubbles for me to take a needle to. That seems crazy to me.
texas_venom
Enthusiast
HMMMM...
Doesn't matter how many states or how many installs. Quality is quality. Hell, "EARL Scheib" has painted thousands of cars in 50 states...
So.... because I don't install film, I have no grounds to make a statement from experience on three of my Vipers????.
Since I paid for it, I'll call it the way I see it and the results I have seen.
"It would be like me trying to tell a trader how the stock market works."
I don't need to know how the stock market works, I do know enough that if the trader is losing my money, I question their ability. I don't care if he's been trading in 32 states....or how long.
In other words, results are what matters. If you, the installer, feel that bubbles are OK, great.
I don't.
IMHO....
Well I tell you what Treesnake, why dont you PM me and tell me where you are located. I am sure many of my customers would be happy to bring their car over and show you what my installs look like. If not the next time I am in your area you can look at my vehicle. I promise you if I look at your I will find flaws that you are probably too inexperienced to find on your own. But I will be more than happy to educate you since your limited knowledge is blatantly obvious... to everyone except for yourself.
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sambo32
Enthusiast
I Used a fine needle and the bubbles came out, it was very easy to do.
Thanks Thom
Thanks Thom
texas_venom
Enthusiast
No problem Sam. Due to the time constraints we had there were some bubbles left but I am glad they came out and you are happy with it. If you wouldnt mind could you post some photos some time. I am sure a few people in here would like to see your car and how the install came out.
Well I tell you what Treesnake, why dont you PM me and tell me where you are located. I am sure many of my customers would be happy to bring their car over and show you what my installs look like. If not the next time I am in your area you can look at my vehicle. I promise you if I look at your I will find flaws that you are probably too inexperienced to find on your own. But I will be more than happy to educate you since your limited knowledge is blatantly obvious... to everyone except for yourself.
First of all, ENTHUSIAST. You come on here for no other purpose than FREE advertising.
Sambo32, a Viper OWNER, was upset enough to come on the forum to ask about some problems with what turns out to be, YOUR install. Specifically, air bubbles. I make a random comment that they shouldn't be there. I think all would agree. No one insulted your obviously inadequate and incomplete install. Just a question of wether there should be air bubbles. Then you decide to attack me( a paying MEMBER of this forum BTW...) for stating that there shouldn't be air bubbles.... *** is wrong with that. Are you saying there should be air bubbles?????
Then, by your own admission in your post, you knew that you left air bubbles in sambo32's car???? Obviously you didn't disclose that to the owner. Were these bubbles (that you left there???) supposed to come out on their own??? why didn't you tell sambo that HE would need to finish the job that he paid you good money to do?
In other words, you knew you left air bubbles and you weren't going to say anything to the customer...unless they brought it up....
Being an ENTHUSIAST, you wouldn't understand a Viper owner. We don't put up with BS.
You said that because of "TIME CONSTRAINTS"you couldn't ...finish the job???..
SAMBO32, How long did it take you to "pin" the bubbles...5 minutes maybe. Were you told that YOU would need to finish the job. Get a discount?
As far as your personal attacks.....ie. "you are probably too inexperienced to find on your own. But I will be more than happy to educate you since your limited knowledge is blatantly obvious... to everyone except for yourself.
[/quote]......"Check my gallery regarding my "inexperience". Better yet, look on page 14 of the previous VIPER magazine. "You are going to educate me"????.....
Wait... my apology. You are an unpaid ENTHUSIAST trying to get some free advertising. You don't have access to the gallery or Viper magazine. Too bad your craft isn't successful enough for you to afford the luxury of...a membership....
I could post some of the pm's I have received regarding your work. But I dont think you would want that NEGATIVE, although free...
, advertising. Sambo32.... Your comment reinforces my statement. "It was very easy to do"...
I wonder why the "32 state", "5 year installer" that admittingly KNEW about the bubbles, didn't do that. If it was a quality, COMPLETE install, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.....
(I m assuming you paid full price...)
VIPERUSA
Enthusiast
very well put treesnake
Jeff Monheim
Viper Owner
- Joined
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I've had 3M installed on three different Vipers 1 Gen II and 2 Gen IVs! Bubbles are not part of a proper install as far as I know.
Nowayforya
Enthusiast
First of all, there was a simple question asked by Sambo32. I suspect he wanted suggestions and not criticism of his install or installer.
I am not posting this information to create animosity or debate among members of this or any other forum or to belittle anyone for their opinions.
I am posting this information, to provide those interested, my experience with paint protection film application. I learned the installation process several years ago by attending a factory-training course and by installing film on a few hundred cars through the years. This is a hobby business with me, only. I don’t advertise and all of my customers are by referral from previous customers and I have a large number of repeat customers.
In my humble opinion, it is almost impossible to install film without having some very small amounts of water bubbles being trapped under the film.
In most cases, they are removed during or immediately following the install, depending on a number of circumstances.
Below are my reasons, based on my experience.
Atmospheric conditions at the location and time of the install greatly affect the amount of water and/or air under the film. Under ideal conditions, there may be no problems with either. If an install is done in a cool damp environment, there will be more water left under the film. If the temperature is warm and the humidity is low, there will be much less or none.
Since a lot of installs are done at the customer’s location, at the customer’s request, ideal conditions are not available. Dust, cold, heat and humid conditions are often present.
A good installer uses a very wet application solution to insure minimization of work marks. The larger the area covered, such as a full hood install, the greater the chance that there will be water trapped.
Different films have different adhesives. Depending on the film used, the environmental condition where the install is done is critical. Repeated lifting of the film to remove small amounts of water, can and will create work marks, especially if the adhesive is aggressive. It is much better to leave some water under the film for later removal by natural curing or syringe than to lift the film. Work marks cannot be removed or repaired.
There is a thin layer of water left under the film following any install. No film is applied dry. This is why it takes 6 to 8 weeks for the install to fully cure, again, depending on the atmospheric temperature and humidity. All films breath.
In most cases, the trapped water will evaporate within the 6 to 8 week curing period. In other cases, small concentrated amounts of water (bubbles) collected under the film can take a long time to dissipate. In those cases, the water is removed with a very small insulin needle. Air is somewhat the same. It is less likely that air gets trapped under film. If it does occur, it is usually where the film wraps over a long sharp contours or edges. Again, this is easily removed by a small needle puncture to allow the air to escape.
To tell the difference between water and air, simply see if the bubble moves easily under the film by pressing it lightly with your finger. Also, water bubbles are usually dark in color. Air will not move under the film unless the film is still very wet underneath. It is kind of like pushing in on a balloon. It compresses and then comes right back.
I do not, under any circumstances, recommend using a hair dryer or heat gun on film unless you are a very experienced applicator. Also, do not, under any circumstances, use heat lamps. Let the film cure naturally.
Heat guns, hair dryers and steamers are used to make the film more pliable during the installation process, especially in cold weather. Hair dryers and low temperature setting on heat guns are used to seal the edges of the material after installation.
Every installer I know or have every met use the same remedy for water and air bubble issues, a very small syringe.
If applications are done in a climate-controlled environment, your chances of having no water/air bubbles are greatly improved. If it is done in an area where the vehicle is exposed to cold, high humidity, etc., you will have water and/or air issues.
Other factors to consider concerning a good install are as follows:
How do the edges line up?
Was the film cut to fit on the vehicle? One cannot see the cut marks until the film is removed.
Were the edges properly sealed? If not, your will see dirt marks around the edges of the film lines after a few months of driving.
What type of application fluid was used? If caustic, you won’t know until you remove the film. Then you have real problems.
Did the installer use tap water or distilled? Again, you don’t know, you will when the film is removed.
There are many more factors to consider when having paint protection installed which I would be happy to discuss with fellow Viper owners.
These are simply my recommendations and observations based on my experience installing paint protection film for years and training film installers.
For those of you who have had absolutely perfect installs with no water or air bubble removal, that’s great but it’s the exception, not the rule.
I never criticize anyone’s work until I see the car for myself and understand the complete circumstances surrounding the install conditions and type of film used. The quality of the install is in the eyes of the beholder. What some may consider excellent, others may find fault with.
Anyone anticipating having paint protection film installed and would like additional information, based on my experience, please feel free to send me a PM and I will be more than happy to share my thoughts with you.
Hal
I am not posting this information to create animosity or debate among members of this or any other forum or to belittle anyone for their opinions.
I am posting this information, to provide those interested, my experience with paint protection film application. I learned the installation process several years ago by attending a factory-training course and by installing film on a few hundred cars through the years. This is a hobby business with me, only. I don’t advertise and all of my customers are by referral from previous customers and I have a large number of repeat customers.
In my humble opinion, it is almost impossible to install film without having some very small amounts of water bubbles being trapped under the film.
In most cases, they are removed during or immediately following the install, depending on a number of circumstances.
Below are my reasons, based on my experience.
Atmospheric conditions at the location and time of the install greatly affect the amount of water and/or air under the film. Under ideal conditions, there may be no problems with either. If an install is done in a cool damp environment, there will be more water left under the film. If the temperature is warm and the humidity is low, there will be much less or none.
Since a lot of installs are done at the customer’s location, at the customer’s request, ideal conditions are not available. Dust, cold, heat and humid conditions are often present.
A good installer uses a very wet application solution to insure minimization of work marks. The larger the area covered, such as a full hood install, the greater the chance that there will be water trapped.
Different films have different adhesives. Depending on the film used, the environmental condition where the install is done is critical. Repeated lifting of the film to remove small amounts of water, can and will create work marks, especially if the adhesive is aggressive. It is much better to leave some water under the film for later removal by natural curing or syringe than to lift the film. Work marks cannot be removed or repaired.
There is a thin layer of water left under the film following any install. No film is applied dry. This is why it takes 6 to 8 weeks for the install to fully cure, again, depending on the atmospheric temperature and humidity. All films breath.
In most cases, the trapped water will evaporate within the 6 to 8 week curing period. In other cases, small concentrated amounts of water (bubbles) collected under the film can take a long time to dissipate. In those cases, the water is removed with a very small insulin needle. Air is somewhat the same. It is less likely that air gets trapped under film. If it does occur, it is usually where the film wraps over a long sharp contours or edges. Again, this is easily removed by a small needle puncture to allow the air to escape.
To tell the difference between water and air, simply see if the bubble moves easily under the film by pressing it lightly with your finger. Also, water bubbles are usually dark in color. Air will not move under the film unless the film is still very wet underneath. It is kind of like pushing in on a balloon. It compresses and then comes right back.
I do not, under any circumstances, recommend using a hair dryer or heat gun on film unless you are a very experienced applicator. Also, do not, under any circumstances, use heat lamps. Let the film cure naturally.
Heat guns, hair dryers and steamers are used to make the film more pliable during the installation process, especially in cold weather. Hair dryers and low temperature setting on heat guns are used to seal the edges of the material after installation.
Every installer I know or have every met use the same remedy for water and air bubble issues, a very small syringe.
If applications are done in a climate-controlled environment, your chances of having no water/air bubbles are greatly improved. If it is done in an area where the vehicle is exposed to cold, high humidity, etc., you will have water and/or air issues.
Other factors to consider concerning a good install are as follows:
How do the edges line up?
Was the film cut to fit on the vehicle? One cannot see the cut marks until the film is removed.
Were the edges properly sealed? If not, your will see dirt marks around the edges of the film lines after a few months of driving.
What type of application fluid was used? If caustic, you won’t know until you remove the film. Then you have real problems.
Did the installer use tap water or distilled? Again, you don’t know, you will when the film is removed.
There are many more factors to consider when having paint protection installed which I would be happy to discuss with fellow Viper owners.
These are simply my recommendations and observations based on my experience installing paint protection film for years and training film installers.
For those of you who have had absolutely perfect installs with no water or air bubble removal, that’s great but it’s the exception, not the rule.
I never criticize anyone’s work until I see the car for myself and understand the complete circumstances surrounding the install conditions and type of film used. The quality of the install is in the eyes of the beholder. What some may consider excellent, others may find fault with.
Anyone anticipating having paint protection film installed and would like additional information, based on my experience, please feel free to send me a PM and I will be more than happy to share my thoughts with you.
Hal
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kwiksilver
Enthusiast
Man, you lost me at "First".
Nowayforya
Enthusiast
Sometimes that happens to me too Kwiksilver but I blame it on being an old guy.
You know, CRS!!!!
Have a good one!
Hal
You know, CRS!!!!
Have a good one!
Hal
Chrissss
Viper Owner
HMMMM...
Doesn't matter how many states or how many installs. Quality is quality. Hell, "EARL Scheib" has painted thousands of cars in 50 states.
IMHO....
That made me laugh.
Nowayforya... I couldn't agree more. There are going to be bubbles on install.
BUT...
They should all be removed by delivery to customer. Any installer that says they will be done in a couple hours and ready for pickup...will have bubbles on delivery.
My installer insists on the car to be dropped off the day before. The car then sits overnight in his shop to be certain the car is at a good working temperature. The surface is then "clayed" and prepped. He takes time to do it right. No "TIME CONSTRAINTS" in exchange for quality. It is not ready to be picked up until the next evening.
MY installer takes his time and removes all air bubbles throughout the day.... BEFORE I get it back.
Judging by your post, you are very thorough...
Would you knowingly leave air bubbles and not address them unless the customer says something about it ????
Sambo32 waited two weeks. Obviously didn't hear from the installer or wouldn't have started this thread. Not until this thread did the installer admit to know about and knowingly leave air bubbles... Best part is that the customer easily fixed the problem left behind by the well traveled, experienced, almight installer.
Question for anyone....
Judging by Sambo32's and Texas Venoms previous statements....
Do you think that after two weeks of not hearing a word, the ENTHUSIAST, free loading installer would have contacted Sambo32 about his admitted negligence, without this thread?
Remember Sambo32 waited two weeks (in silence) hoping they would go away on their own...
Until this thread.
BUT...
They should all be removed by delivery to customer. Any installer that says they will be done in a couple hours and ready for pickup...will have bubbles on delivery.
My installer insists on the car to be dropped off the day before. The car then sits overnight in his shop to be certain the car is at a good working temperature. The surface is then "clayed" and prepped. He takes time to do it right. No "TIME CONSTRAINTS" in exchange for quality. It is not ready to be picked up until the next evening.
MY installer takes his time and removes all air bubbles throughout the day.... BEFORE I get it back.
Judging by your post, you are very thorough...
Would you knowingly leave air bubbles and not address them unless the customer says something about it ????
Sambo32 waited two weeks. Obviously didn't hear from the installer or wouldn't have started this thread. Not until this thread did the installer admit to know about and knowingly leave air bubbles... Best part is that the customer easily fixed the problem left behind by the well traveled, experienced, almight installer.
Question for anyone....
Judging by Sambo32's and Texas Venoms previous statements....
Do you think that after two weeks of not hearing a word, the ENTHUSIAST, free loading installer would have contacted Sambo32 about his admitted negligence, without this thread?
Remember Sambo32 waited two weeks (in silence) hoping they would go away on their own...
Until this thread.
Nowayforya
Enthusiast
Treesnake,
I now know the circumstances surrounding this install. I talked to Sambo32 on the phone last evening. He called me because he wanted some tips on paint care and header selection.
From what he stated, the problem was slight and corrected easily. He was pleased with his install.
I doubt he, like most of us, would pay for a job he was not satisfied with.
There were extenuating circumstances that you and I were not aware of in the beginning.
Maybe Sambo32 will chime in and let everyone know what they were and if he is satisfied with Texas_Venom's work and why Texas_Venom did not contact him in a timely fashion?
Regardless, I see no need for all of this animosity by either side.
If a fellow VCA member was or is intentionally taken advantage of by another member or enthusiast, regardless of who it is, then that’s a different situation.
That was certainly not the case here.
I know Texas_Venom very well and I know he has done several VCA Member owned Vipers. I know a lot of his customers, owning all kinds of cars.
From his customer's feedback, his work seems to please. I have not heard anything negative. If I ever did, I would get on his case big time. You see, he is my son and I trained him.
I don't agree with the accusations made by either side in this issue and I told him so. It is not necessary. That's what happens when conclusions are drawn without all of the facts.
There are no hard feelings from this side and I hope you feel the same way?
Also, I hope to meet you at one of the VCA events in the not too distant future.
By the way, Texas_Venom was a VCA Member for two years.
Have a good one!
Hal
I now know the circumstances surrounding this install. I talked to Sambo32 on the phone last evening. He called me because he wanted some tips on paint care and header selection.
From what he stated, the problem was slight and corrected easily. He was pleased with his install.
I doubt he, like most of us, would pay for a job he was not satisfied with.
There were extenuating circumstances that you and I were not aware of in the beginning.
Maybe Sambo32 will chime in and let everyone know what they were and if he is satisfied with Texas_Venom's work and why Texas_Venom did not contact him in a timely fashion?
Regardless, I see no need for all of this animosity by either side.
If a fellow VCA member was or is intentionally taken advantage of by another member or enthusiast, regardless of who it is, then that’s a different situation.
That was certainly not the case here.
I know Texas_Venom very well and I know he has done several VCA Member owned Vipers. I know a lot of his customers, owning all kinds of cars.
From his customer's feedback, his work seems to please. I have not heard anything negative. If I ever did, I would get on his case big time. You see, he is my son and I trained him.
I don't agree with the accusations made by either side in this issue and I told him so. It is not necessary. That's what happens when conclusions are drawn without all of the facts.
There are no hard feelings from this side and I hope you feel the same way?
Also, I hope to meet you at one of the VCA events in the not too distant future.
By the way, Texas_Venom was a VCA Member for two years.
Have a good one!
Hal
texas_venom
Enthusiast
Without knowing the entire situation you should not be making comments. If you would like to talk bout it offline feel free to PM me. I will be more than happy to discuss it with you.
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Achilles99
Enthusiast
I've had clear bras and tint put on several of my vehicles (Vipers, Gallardo, Vanquish, Cayenne, 745). Some have bubbles, some don't. The worst bubbles were on my Vanquish. The worst "stretch" marks were on my Viper. I think it's just the luck of the draw on temperature, conditions, etc. On some of my cars, it takes weeks for the water to dry underneath.
All of them had lifetime warranties, and if I were unhappy my installer would have removed it and started over.
Personally, I'd rather have a bubble with needle hole than a rock chip
All of them had lifetime warranties, and if I were unhappy my installer would have removed it and started over.
Personally, I'd rather have a bubble with needle hole than a rock chip
No offense intended. Not really anything else to say about it.....
So after a couple days and all these posts' ......there's a new untold story?????....
Don't tell me, tell Sambo32....
Again, no offense intended, but I am going to use my time more productively.
