FASTER THAN A VIPER

[SnakeBitten]

If I remember correctly the Saleen S351 traps in the 123mph and its around $55k I think....Its about as fast as an SRT10 but faster than the Gen II stock of course...Dont remember if Saleen is considered a mfg or a tuner so not sure if the S351 applies to the topic at hand....One things for sure, you gotta think long and hard to find a car for under 100k that can compete with the Viper.....

 

[Guibo]

WCKDVPR has touched on some of the reasons why the Viper is so much more expensive than musclecars from way back when. It has the technological advantage, but it's also being built in a time when a lot of the advances don't go into all out performance: it has to comply with emissions and the minimum safety standards. Something the old cars didn't have to worry about. Not being based on already existing sedans, and being produced in fewer numbers, much of its price is dictated by marketplace supply and demand.


There is one car from the old days that could keep pace with the Viper, once it hooks up after horrible traction issues. The '66 Corvette Sting Ray with the 427ci L72 option. C&D numbers for the SRT-10 (about as quick as the GTS) against their numbers from 8/65:

SRT-10 / L72
0-30: 1.7 / 3.2
0-40: 2.4 / 3.8
0-50: 3.0 / 4.6
0-60: 3.9 / 5.4
0-70: 4.8 / 6.9
0-80: 5.7 / 7.8
0-90: 7.1 / 9.0
0-100: 8.5 / 10.6
1/4 mile: 12.1 @ 121 / 12.8 @ 112

According to the corvetteactioncenter.com data, this Corvette had a 4-speed, 3.36:1 final drive, and 425 bhp. Most Corvettes prior to this were doing quarter miles in the 14's-15's. Notice that much of the lag in time between this Vette and the SRT-10 comes down to the launch (Viper is considerably quicker to 30 mph), and the shift. A gap of about 2.1 seconds is maintained from 70 mph to 100 mph. Pretty good for an old car. This is what an acceleration chart between the two would look like:

But, according to a Classic Car & Driver segment on Spike TV last year, they republished data for the L72 Corvette for their 1966 Yearbook. They had tested a 450-hp L72 Corvette from 0-140 in 17.0 seconds. The Viper takes 17.6 seconds to get to 140. If we consider the massive tiresmoke from those skinnies, we're talking about massive thrust once it hooks up. Supposedly, the L88 option gave even more power...
Granted, with a 4-speed tranny, these things won't hit the 190 mph top end of the Viper, nor would they be anywhere near as stable at even 150, I'd imagine.

 

[Guibo]

If I remember correctly the Saleen S351 traps in the 123mph and its around $55k I think....

Yeah, Saleen is legally considered a manufacturer, what with the S351 being federally certified & sold through dealer channels with a warranty and all.
Fastest trap speed I've seen for the S351 is a 119.3, with two other times it recording 112 and 117.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Did a quick google for the 123mph article but all I found was this...122mph but only 12.7 et...Obviously has to be a traction limited et..heres the link...Sorta skinny tires for that kinda tq/hp...

http://www.saleenunlimited.com/s351/specs.asp

 

[CROM]

Aren't Z06's faster than SRT's??

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*disclaimer: I'm very bored*

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[STUGOTS]

Yes they are actually!!!!!







but only if the motor in the viper is blown (not supercharged blown)and the winds now blowing otherwise the viper will glide faster the the z06!!

 

[Gerald Levin]

From a seat of the pants measurement, my 1970 442 blows my Viper away. I know it is slower then the Dodge, but it is more fun... IMHO

Hey, don't bogart that joint my friend! Are you serious? You'd rather get in your 442 than your viper? Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion but the viper smokes the 442 in power and style! Maybe you like the anonymity of the 442, the 1 in 25 drivers going by saying to themselves, "Hey, nice car". But with the viper, you will get literally 1 in 2 drivers thinking, "Holy $hit!" But, like I said, you are entitled to your opinion, but it sure makes me---------->

 

[Gerald Levin]

OK Beavus, name the 60s cars that rule.... This is the third time I've asked you.

Not intending to shoplift this thread, but Joe the more I read from you, the more knowledgable and entertaining you really are. Especially when you said you are thinking about selling your RT & vette and getting a GTS, I'm now totally convinced you "have seen the light". Oh, btw, I know of a great deal on a low mi 96 GTS for $85,000. PM me for more details.

But seriously, I really do enjoy your comments.

 

[joe117]

I don't like to say bad things about someone else's ride.
442 huh? Well... OK, 442, yeah that's cool....

About some of those 60s cars we have been talking,
Have you noticed how narrow the track on those cars seems when you see one today?

Look at a 63-67 Vette. Little skinny tires, set close together. The body seems high off the ground and seems to hang over the edges. I saw some old films of a road race and they sure looked strange.

The Jag XKE is another one that has that look too. When you see one in person it just doesn't look as hot as I remember them from back in the day.

And the L72 Vette,
"A gap of about 2.1 seconds is maintained from 70 mph to 100 mph"
Jeez, that's quite a bit. In fact it isn't even in the same ballpark.
I think that would come to almost 300 feet. Heck, that's almost a ballpark.
Ever hear anyone say, "Hey, that's a fast Vette. I'll spot you 25 car lengths"?

 

[ViperRay]

Joe, you are right about the '63-'67 vette. I happen to like the style as "art" though, which is why I have one. The aerodynamics however would be more suitable if the intent was to go airborn. The lift at speed is tremendous.

 

[Guibo]

And the L72 Vette,
"A gap of about 2.1 seconds is maintained from 70 mph to 100 mph"
Jeez, that's quite a bit. In fact it isn't even in the same ballpark.
I think that would come to almost 300 feet. Heck, that's almost a ballpark.
Ever hear anyone say, "Hey, that's a fast Vette. I'll spot you 25 car lengths"?

Don't forget, though, that most of that gap is due to the bad launch. The Viper gets a 1.5 second advantage just to 30 mph. 71% of the advantage is accounted for right there. Judging speed over time plots, the Vette has either
1) a crappy shift into 2nd (it's not likely that transmissions in those days were better, nor shorter-throw than today's), or
2) traction problems going into 2nd
Point being, look at the graph, and ignore the 0-30 segment. Once the Corvette hooks up, its acceleration curve is every bit as steep as the SRT-10's. Meaning, if you got these two cars side by side on a highway roll, there'd be nothing between them, from 70-100. The gap most certainly would not be 300 feet. The 450-hp version of the L72, with its quicker 0-140 time (no way is that thing going to match the SRT-10's 3.9 second sprint to 60) indicates that it will pull on the SRT-10 by quite a comfortable margin.
Any car that can stay with the Viper from 70 all the way through 100 mph, while not giving up any noticeable ground, is goddamn fast no matter how you look at it. And so far, this is the only thing (for the money) that can approach the Viper's accelerative performance; those other musclecars sure aren't going to do it.

 

[DrumrBoy]

Ron,

I am not dreaming. Take an L88 in stock form today and put modern tires on it and it will beat a Viper. And comapred to it's peers of it's age, the L88 is much more car. I would think that an tri power 427, a 426 HEMI Cuda, and an LS6 with similar upgrades would beat a stock Viper in a straight line. Also, givien tha fact they cost about $4,000 new makes them truely incredible machines. I agree that nothing made today can beat the Viper for twice the price.

I have a.30 over L88 (with headers and an 850 Holley running Goodyear Eagles) and a 98 650R. Not a fair comparison because the 650 pulls a bit better than a stock GTS but trust me, my Viper is WAY faster.

 

[Snakester]

And the L72 Vette,
"A gap of about 2.1 seconds is maintained from 70 mph to 100 mph"
Jeez, that's quite a bit. In fact it isn't even in the same ballpark.
I think that would come to almost 300 feet. Heck, that's almost a ballpark.
Ever hear anyone say, "Hey, that's a fast Vette. I'll spot you 25 car lengths"?

Don't forget, though, that most of that gap is due to the bad launch. The Viper gets a 1.5 second advantage just to 30 mph. 71% of the advantage is accounted for right there. Judging speed over time plots, the Vette has either
1) a crappy shift into 2nd (it's not likely that transmissions in those days were better, nor shorter-throw than today's), or
2) traction problems going into 2nd
Point being, look at the graph, and ignore the 0-30 segment. Once the Corvette hooks up, its acceleration curve is every bit as steep as the SRT-10's. Meaning, if you got these two cars side by side on a highway roll, there'd be nothing between them, from 70-100. The gap most certainly would not be 300 feet. The 450-hp version of the L72, with its quicker 0-140 time (no way is that thing going to match the SRT-10's 3.9 second sprint to 60) indicates that it will pull on the SRT-10 by quite a comfortable margin.
Any car that can stay with the Viper from 70 all the way through 100 mph, while not giving up any noticeable ground, is goddamn fast no matter how you look at it. And so far, this is the only thing (for the money) that can approach the Viper's accelerative performance; those other musclecars sure aren't going to do it.

The 0-140MPH times don't match the other performance specs.

Most fast cars of similar performance swap spots when measuring 0-30, 0-40 and so on because of the different shift points. But even though the Viper gets a traction lead in the 0-30MPH take-off, it effectively stretches that lead to 2.1 seconds to 100MPH.

But then somehow the Viper's acceleration then is supposed to drop off, taking the Viper another 5.5 seconds to go 19MPH faster from it's 1/4 mile speed, whereas the Corvette (which is going nearly 10MPH slower than the Viper when the Viper hits 120MPH) takes only 4.2 seconds to go 28MPH faster than it's speed at the 1/4 mile.

It doesn't make sense. Power is usually shown by trap speed, and ET more by traction (with other factors figuring in of course).

My experience with my Viper is that it has very strong acceleration between 80 and 140MPH.
Especially with 120-140MPH still being run in 4th gear with 3.07 gears, with the engine at the top of it's power curve at those speeds in 4th.

 

[Guibo]

The 0-140MPH times don't match the other performance specs.

Most fast cars of similar performance swap spots when measuring 0-30, 0-40 and so on because of the different shift points. But even though the Viper gets a traction lead in the 0-30MPH take-off, it effectively stretches that lead to 2.1 seconds to 100MPH.

Actually, it takes a 2.1 second lead at 70 mph. A margin that it fails to increase upon during the next 30 mph.
But you're right, the 0-140 time does not jive with the rest of the numbers. That's why I think C&D may have tested the L72 on two different occasions, the 0-140 comes from their publication in '66, the other numbers from this earlier test:
http://corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/1966/66prod.html
I'll poke around and see what I can find on this.

In any event, even the slower of the two tests indicate a car that accelerates far more rapidly than a Z06: its quarter mile and trap speed are spot-on with the earlier '01 Z06, yet its 0-60 time is about 1.0 second slower.
Just for the heck of it, here's how they'd compare if we examine their performance w/o the L72's tirespin; assuming things start from 30 mph. We can see there's not much between them, all the way from 70 mph to the Viper's trap speed near the 120 mph mark. The Viper opens up a significant gap once the L72 has to shift into 3rd. But shortly after that, the Viper has to shift and the gap closes again.

Pretty impressive. But yeah, the Viper is quicker and faster to the quarter (and considerably faster and more stable on the top end). There's no disputing that.

 

[tzoid]

Oh, what a great thread! Kinda reminds me of the one..."greatest heavyweight of all times!". OK, back to cars...I grew up in the famous '60's and worked in a speed shop fixing rich kids cars while working my way thru college. Probably worked on and drove just about every hot car in that time period. GTO's, 442's, 427 trips Corvettes (435 HP claimed), 396 & 454 SS Chevelles, '67 Z-28 (dual quad set-up), hemi Roadrunners ('68 &'69, 4-spd and torque flite), Mustangs (Boss 302's & 428 CJ) and Cuda's with various engines (remember guys, they are ENGINES...motors are wound electrical devices that power things like washing machines). OK, where were we....fastest of them all. Hands down the quickest in the street trim variety was the 440-6 pack Roadrunner. Quicker than the Cudas with the same engine. Hemi's were torque monsters of the era but coudn't get the power down like the 440-6 pack in the RR could. My Viper can and would destroy all of them. Sorry, that was a golden era but today's cars are faster, handle better and burn less fuel. Never drove a 427 Cobra, a friend of mine has a real one (yeah, it's real and worth $500 to 750,000)and I've riden in it. A real kick, but I believe I can beat him! My $.02 worth, believe it or not. Ripley

 

[LIRacer]

HEy Joe,

I was away at LIme Rock racing ... it figures you would wait till I am gone to dis my 442. Yea it is a bit skinny in stance ... I think it has the 8 inch wheel upgrade. No way I can beat a Viper in the launch, but did I read you shooting you mouth off over a 25 car length lead in the 1/4 mile? care to offer that that my old and tired 442? For reggies?

 

[thebigsnake]

YouWish,
I meant a thin and handsome Ron Jeremy, but the same proportions vis-a-vie the length ...and number of nubile female engagements, so on.

 

[joe117]

LiRacer,
You don't read what I write, do you?

The 25 carlengths was the 2.1 second difference between the L72 and the SRT, from 0-100.

The skinny stance was directed at C3 Vette and XKE.

So, there you go. You came down on me for nothing.
You don't really read any of these posts do you?

All you do is skim through looking for key words and then you make assumptions about what someone might have written.

If you are going to write comments about what people write, you are going to have to READ what they write.

Got a hot 442 huh? Have you run it lately?
What will she do in the quarter, mid 14s?

 

[LIRacer]

It becomes increasingly hard to read everything that you write ... (snore). Actually, my 442 is a bit of a garage queen now. 34 year old cars are getting harder to find original parts for. But as far as coming down on you ... you're just an easy target to have some fun with. Little of it is really personal...you just take at the bait.

 

[LIRacer]

Joe,

Just as a thought .. I would bet that my 442 could beat your Viper with you driving that Viper ...

 

[joe117]

Well why did you claim your 442 would run 11.0 at 125?

 

[LIRacer]

I didn't claim that ... you wrote that in your ever increasingly brilliant line of fact disregarding posts, when you were trying to compare car top speed in a drag race. Here is your post:
"I keep asking you,
What is the top speed on a 60s car with a 4.11 rear and a 4 speed with a 1:1 top gear?

Hint.... It's about 125mph.

Well?"

My awesome retort was:
"Top speed??? Who cares in the quarter mile. Does you Viper hit 6th in a drag race? If it does I would suggest that you hold your gears a bit longer then 3000 rpm. The idea is to go fast Joe.

And a car with 4.11 gears would not do even 125mph .... but it would get there very fast .... which Joe, is the point of Drag racing ...it is an acceleration event...acceleration is the constant increasing of speed, Joe. I am sorry I am using big words."

Sheesh...talk about not reading posts! Joe I am starting to actually like you .... regardless of the facts you push on regardless! What focus!!!!

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

hard to find parts for a 442? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH yeah..sure.

What is the rarest oldsmobile musclecar worth these days? Maybe 40K? That won't even get you a decent 71 340 Cuda.

 

[LIRacer]

In cheapo Canadian dollars or US? And what were you trying to spell? Is that a Canook word????

 

[joe117]

LiRacer,
You say you didn't say that? Let me answer in your own words.

"It becomes increasingly hard to read everything that you write ... (snore)."

"Just as a thought .. I would bet that my 442 could beat your Viper with you driving that Viper"

" you're just an easy target to have some fun with. Little of it is really personal...you just take at the bait."

Get it Racer? I was just messing with you. You took the bait. How do you like it?

Now, if you would like to go over the subject one more time.

I don't know why you seem to have a problem understanding my point about the 4.56 rear end coupled to a 1:1 transmission.
As I said, it's not just a matter of top speed or speed at the end of a 1/4 mile.

The point is, if you had a 60s car that needed a 4.56 rear in order to get into the mid 13s, you couldn't really use the car for anything other than 1/4 mile.

You couldn't drive it on a highway without cruising along at 4000 rpm.

Many things go into what makes a car fast. The title of the thread is "FASTER THAN A VIPER".

For the 60s car to be faster than a Viper it needs to be something other than a 1/4 mile car.

Why can't you understand this?

Now go back and read what I said. Understand it before you come back telling me that I said something else.

If you find it hard to read what I write then perhaps you shouldn't read it. If you don't read it you can't comment.
Right?

 

[LIRacer]

No Joe...
You said 125mph I didnt. Read the post. Oh, that was baiting me. Well, good for you. There is some hope for you yet. Now try to understand this for the last time. I AGREE THAT THE VIPER IS FASTER THEN MY 442. I told you that pages ago. But for the price of a Viper it should be. Now..go read everything I have written again so you understand it. I find it hard to believe that someone who can afford a Viper and a Vette can't get simple facts correct.

 

[IEATVETS]

Can't we all just get along!!!! I think it is time to let this thread die, no one is getting anywhere with this now.

 

[LIRacer]

I agree .... this is rather pointless. I don't really care whether a Viper is faster then a muscle car as I have both and enjoy every type of performance car.

 

[joe117]

"I AGREE THAT THE VIPER IS FASTER THEN MY 442."

I don't believe that was ever in question. I don't think your 442 even qualifies to be in the game.
Your 442 isn't any faster than my stock 96 Vette.

A 442 is really not one of the cars in question when we are looking for cars that might be as fast as a Viper.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

In cheapo Canadian dollars or US? And what were you trying to spell? Is that a Canook word????

What word did I spell incorrectly?

I'm talking 40K US. What $hitty olds is worth that much?