Here's the Rules of our "PG" board

[Joseph Houss]

Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

So, after a handful of days of debates, e-mails and conversations, the facts still remain the same. This site was made available to enhance our members' Viper related experience. It was designed and implemented after many conversations, over years, with VCA members, Regional, and National officers to represent the majority of members' wishes. We respect all input that details changes that one may suggest, but we must maintain a site that satisfies the majority of members.

The bottom line: If you wouldn't want your (circle those that apply) child, teen, spouse, business partner, boss, brother, sister or friend to see what you PUBLISH by posting on this site, then don't. This site will continue to be "PG" AND Viper related.

Here's the rules, once again:

<FONT COLOR="Red">The following types of messages are UNACCEPTABLE:
Profane, gross, ****** (language and images) Inflammatory statements, Inappropriate posts - Examples: Inaccurate or incorrect information, Non-viper by non-members, Commercial non-viper announcements, Test posts or posting mistakes, Forgery, impersonation or invalid return e-mail. Anything retracted by poster, Personal assaults or name calling, Posts of no interest to members of the Viper community, Ads (Site includes free classifieds for members) No return E-mail (this is post dependent and at moderator discretion).

If any person, (or computer equipment or address assigned to them,) can be determined by the best information available to message board administrators to be responsible for fraudulent, non-factual, confrontational, or posts contrary to stated message board policy, the person or business involved may be banned from board participation or advertising for a period of time deemed appropriate by board administrators, in their complete discretion.</FONT c>

 

[PMUM]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

I guess it's Rated X to ask why a post got deleted.

 

[JonB]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Answer:
"The Reason It Got Deleted Is That It Violated A Rule." [ I know...I have been NUKED] It is very easy to see a line being crossed. Joe's "PG" test is perfect: Free-speech advocates would NOT want some of their postings forwarded to family or colleagues! Free Speech Is Not Free! The cost is policing ourselves. For one, I think it is a small price to pay to keep this board beneficial and interesting to VCA MEMBERS !

We help a a LOT of stressed-out whiners who then say "I'll Join Tomorrow" or "Im not a Club-person." Well, if you benefit from this board, you are enjoying a BENEFIT OF MEMBERSHIP....please pay your dues! 1.800.998.1110.

Unfortunately, a mob-mentality creeps in on a topic, (even a good one) and a decent thread gets UGLY....and the good sometimes gets locked/deleted with the bad. The Price.

Thanks, moderators..........

 

[PMUM]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

The reason why people got so worked up is because we ALL are VCA members and have been for at least 2-5 years. Wouldn't you be frustrated to see your post get deleted because you were merely asking why another post got deleted? What if you were a VCA member for 3 years and got BANNED from this board because you were asking why posts were deleted too often? What made it worse was that Frank from NJ's post about "dots", "turbin heads" and shutting down immigration, etc., etc. was on the board for a month and didn't get pulled until "we" started complaining. Also, nearly everything out of IEATTOURETTES' pie-hole was ******, yet stayed on the board for days and days. Question the moderation or Matlock and you get pulled in 2 minutes.

It seems like everybody has made their point known and come to a better understanding of each side. I think there were definitely some moderators with a point to prove. I think that point was that this isn't the VCA members' board, it is their board to moderate however they please. Hey, that's fine. There is no free speech when it comes to a private BBS, and it's more than their right to do whatever they **** well please with THEIR board. We mistakenly thought that because it was a VCA board and we were VCA members that it wasn't out of line to ask why a post got deleted or at least ask for an explanation. Now we know.

 

[Gerald]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

I would also like to say not all of us are middle aged men only taking our Vipers out on a Sunday w/ the wife.

Some of us are young and like to talk smack, race our Vipers and tell all kill stories. It seems as if this board only wants 1 type of personality. The Zaino and how do I store my car personality. There are more than 1 ppl (person?) that enjoys our snakes. To kick or moderate posts by the more "aggresive" group is downright wrong. We own t he baddest car in the world and we condone using it for what it's made for and for the younger crowd that gets into "online competition"??

Wake up guys and lets let everyone have fun on here WHILE answering the Zaino, Exhaust, Car storage and What are smooth tubes posts.. If not, this board and the group will get a bad rap and slowly f....a.....d......e.....

 

[Matt M PA]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Well put, Joe. What everyone forgets is that when they registered to use this board they agreed to the terms and conditions of use. Since we all know this board the best, we may notice more often when things are moved or deleted. I would bet that every one of the better boards have moderators that do the same. Without rules and moderators, this board would wind up being a genuine mess....more like the AOL chatroom nonsense, with "this stinks...this rules" high school mentality. I have had a post or two deleted, but geez..is having a post locked or deleted really the worst thing that could happen? As far as a PG rating? I believe that in the "heat of the moment", many people write things that they would never say in person. Think about it before you type...would you want your post quoted as what you said?

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Ok so the "official" rules have been posted, and nobody disagrees that anything that is a personal attack, swearing, etc, needs to be deleted. I don't think anyone would question the removal of something like that.

All I wanted all along was that moderators put a short note on posts they lock. I STILL think this is perfectly reasonable. Alot of times, I have no idea why something was locked, and it inevitably ends up in email. That might satisfy the one questioning it, but it doesn't satisfy the rest who just chalk it up to whatever reasons they contrive themselves. I also think we can all agree that there's been some trigger happiness the last week or so.

I still think it is common courtesy to tell someone why something was locked. Every other forum does it and it will save a lot of questioning down the road.

I hope that going forward, anybody moderating the board will take a look at the rules themselves and delete something because it broke the rules, not because it might be unpopular or controversial. I'm with Gerald... I have no interest in reading the same stories over and over. I drive my car - about 10k miles a year, I race it, and I also polish it... but I want to be able to hook up with similar interested Viper owners on all points, not just the show 'n shine part.

My 0.02.

 

[Jim Hodel]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Hi Gerald, I'm one of those 'middle aged men' who takes their Viper out on Saturdays, however sometimes it is to the track. Running my car on the race track relieves me of the need to engage in street racing, which I believe proves very little. In general, I find the re-enactments of these 'races' to be pretty lame.

Also, I have out grown the need for trash talking. I just go out to the track, drive my Viper, and enjoy. There are certainly faster cars and drivers. You may be one of them, but please show me on the track not on our bulletin board.

Jim

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Jim,

If "smack" is not allowed on the BBS, then those who are interested in the "smack" do not have the option to read it, and therefore don't visit the board. Which means the board is not catering to what they want out of a car club. That's fine, as long as we state what the VCA is about up front. If it is allowed, then you always have the option not to read it.

I go out pretty much every Friday with the "car guys". Last week we went drag racing, then we went to a comedy show, had a few drinks and BSed. There were Vette guys, Viper guys, and more. Yeah, there was plenty of smack talking at the track, and at the show, and afterwards, but it was FUN, it was safe, and everyone had a good time. Our regional VCA is also organizing a cruise and a car show - they are not AS interesting to me (the show isn't my thing at all), but different strokes for different folks, so I'm happy to put this stuff together so that those who are different from me can enjoy being in the club too. I would NEVER exclude anyone just because it's not what I, personally, am interested in.

 

[brett]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Jim,

What if we show you on the track AND on the bulletin board? You don't have to watch us do it, and you don't have to re-live it by reading what we post...if you so chose. It REALLY is that simple. We have fun, and we like to have fun. If you don't agree that our fun is your fun...no harm no "fowl".

Next issue: BBS Attendance

KID97GTS?

BurnR8?

Bueler...Bueler...Bueler....Ferris Bueler?

 

[CAS]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

I agree completely w/ Mike, and I do believe also that a short note should be left so that one may know why the post was deleted. It may not seem like a lot, but the post is someones opinion/thoughts and it is kind of offending when it is removed without warning. Anyway, I do believe the rules are very straight-forward, and now we should relax and enjoy the speed of the new board. (It IS faster!!

) Thanks,

Clint

 

[PMUM]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Jim, I am a Gen-Xer who has yet to outgrow talking a little bit of smack to my compadres. Sorry if it offends you. I have never washed my own ACR and probably never will. Therefore, I hereby decree that I want you and your crowd to stop wasting my time with Zaino comments. If I don't need to read them I'm sure nobody else does (great logic borrowed from you). Also, I already have headers, therefore I decree that I never want to see another post about headers or peformance parts because they do me no personal good. I'm glad we can come to a compromise.

Steve, I hereby second myself to be a moderator. Thank you for your recommendation. My first order of business will be to delete any posts that the "middle-age" crowd puts up that I don't need to read. I will gladly explain myself everytime I delete a post. It will go something like this..."I have deleted the above post because I didn't like it and I have that power---I'm a moderator! If you don't like it, email me and I will administer the banning of a lifetime and you will be forced to reside at the Corvette Forum until I feel it's appropriate to let you back in. I have spoken!"

 

[brett]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Is there anything that CAN be posted anymore? By the way PMUM since you are now an honorary moderator can you bring the KID and BurnR8 back? Better yet make me a moderator also. We'll clean this world up!

If there is anything remotely boring, REDUNDANT, anything that could be deemed common knowledge, or if I just plain don't like the person that's posting, I'll move it to my new Forum..."Who Cares".

PMUM, this is where you and I disagree! This way if anybody really does care they'll know where to find it. Obviously we won't have any need to visit this new forum, but someone may. I think the new forum could be the busiest of all forums!

I'll also implement a forum that only allows hoodlums and thugs where the likes of BurnR8 and KID97GTS could be found. Keep a forum just for the banished and the unbanned will not be allowed, not at least until we banish them into the eternal forum of the banned. I'm not willing to name this one yet, only those lost souls will know the forum name or the fact that it actually exists....the banished. That's my plan as a moderator.....hmmm.... this sounds like a plan I've heard before....err...ummmm...oh well, I like it and I'm quite certain it will work. When do I start?

 

[Tenney]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Jim, it seems the fair thing to do is to allow any vulgarity-free thread/post to stand regardless of whether or not you or I agree with its topic/points of view or find it interesting/relevant. Clearly not everyone in the VCA is like-minded on all fronts and so maybe we should try to be equitable in this regard.

Steve, obviously most of us have at least some level of affinity for DC. And clearly as a corporation they do much to support this club. But the fact is, unless I am hugely mistaken, it is still OUR club. I think your post may have lost sight of that in some capacity - at least in my interpretation of it. I am a satisfied customer of DC, although at this point I am not under their employ. Lastly, count me among the surprised if DC finds anything posted in this forum damaging enough to their brand image to warrant shutting it down (if, in fact, they have the ability to do so).

 

[Tom Welch]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Shoot!, Golly-GEEZ, Dag nammit, sufferin suckitash!

A shameless plug......you can say whatever is on your mind on the viper message board at the link below.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[JonB]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Ferguson:
To all: This site is run and administrated by volunteers to the VCA. Steve Ferguson
VCA Co-Founder & Past VCA National President<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To all-
Correction: The oversight of this board is by unpaid volunteers like Joe Houss, Tony Estes....VCA oficers. This board is run by paid, underpaid, and unpaid staff alike.

Jon Brobst......VCA Co-Founder (4 of 14?)
Past National VCA Secretary
Regional VCA President

......and I'm the person who proposed the original agenda item to adopt this board; and made the original motion to make it the VCA official website. Why? Because we were fed-up with the smack-talking, Non-VCA member, non Viper owners, teen-gangs....roving the original sites. The tone in THIS thread reminds me of a those putrid pimple-popping posters. Theyreee BAAAAAAACCKKKK...

 

[PMUM]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

One correction, JonB....almost all of us ARE VCA members. Some of us are fed up with Zaino totin', JonB wares butt kissin', Matlock watchin', ****** poppin' Geezers. The difference is we don't complain &/or censor you guys. Not all Viper owners these days can qualify for the Earlybird Old-timers special at Hometown Bufftet; Deal with it!

Ut oh, better hurry up and hop on your Rascal, and get home to catch the beginning of Scarecrow & Mrs. King.

WAR OLD TIMERS!!!!!!!!!!


Paul Mumford

President -- BA "I pity the fool" BarracussFanclub
Vice President -- Smackers Anonymous

 

[Tenney]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Jon, bagging on younger "pimple-poppers" (or whatever your specific reference was) instead of debating a specific behavior or point of view simply brings you to the same level of character that you purport these folks to have. (Though that moment at the keyboard must have been a welcome release from the kinder, gentler Partsrack Jon B. that you've become of late).

I'd suggest that it's better not exclude or alienate the younger group. They're the future of this club as well as the future of your business (not to mention DC's).

 

[JonB]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PMUM:
One correction, JonB....almost all of us ARE VCA members..........The difference is we don't complain &/or censor you guys..........
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regulation of the boards has created a much better bias of Members vs Non. Thank you for noticing. Rules did that.

The reason the Matlock set [ gee, I was a fan of Andy Griffith 2 series BEFORE Matlock......] don't get censored or complained about is that we learned from mistakes, created this site, and we follow the rules. There once was a smack-defector who started his OWN unregulated board, just 1 board ago........ Lots of Rah-Rah.... Died in 2 weeks. [Who was that Smack-man"]

If a new, enthusiastic owner wants to talk "Wax my Viper" then dont read the thread. Someone will help that new Gen-X or Gen Y new owner....YOUTH or old... If Joe Houss starts "heres da rules" then why introduce smack? Build your own board with its own rules.
Smackers Annonymous can play there. We dont waste our dues, or ad payments on server space, or archive space, or admin time, for playground posters.......for self-AMUSEMENT only!

Ironic: My thread Thursday about "Post A Reason" was also deleted......probably due to unruly replies......my Pimple-Poppers was the gangs of teens on the original VCA board on the C+D site. Gary L, John H, Me, John Hinckley (!), Dean Word, Jay Herbert.......started that one till the pimplepops made us sick.
Some of you may remember ...... with likley disgust.

 

[brett]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Wake up JonB! That was a rather bold statement towards those that may buy parts from you currently and in the future. We have or have had Vipers, kids in diapers and apparently more common sense than you. If you want to make a point, I think it would better received if it wasn't wrapped in the I have more stripes than you do motif. Hey moderators was that a personal attack on the usual suspects?

By the way, has anybody heard from KID or BurnR8?

Brett Mayes
Senior VP
My Dad is Bigger than your Dad Club

 

[JonB]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brett:

By the way, has anybody heard from KID or BurnR8?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup......I wrote a defense of BurnR8's posts in particular. Mine was deleted. He E-mailed thanks, and I called to chat.

ps...He is free to post if he cares to. He is absent by choice.

pps....I cannot delete anyone or censor anyone! Truth.

ppps....I'm not worried about alienating young Viper owners.
I am worried that smack-talk on this site will alienate far more Viper owners. When "youth" need a straight-shooter to solve a Viper problem..... I'll be available. And I wont talk smack to 'em.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Hey, I'm 40. Am I one of the geezers?

 

[Gerald]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Nope Chuck,

You would fall in between Old Geezer and Pimple Popper..
How about "Poppin' Geezer"?

 

[Tenney]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Trinity -

My response to Jon's post was based on content that to me suggested the exclusion of a group of people. Plain and simple. No need to read into it.

I'm sure you like Jon. I do, too. I simply disagree(d) with his take in that particular post (noticeably softened in subsequent posts, BTW) and felt it appropriate to set down the Kool-Aid for a moment and let him know.

 

[Jim Hodel]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Hey Gerald and Chuck, I guess that's better then 'pimple geezer'.

PMUM, As far as being part of the Zaino set, see me at a Viper Club road course event, and I'll show what a shiny car can do.

Hey, that felt great! Am I smack talking now? Wow, I'm about to change my mind.

Seriously, I like a good story about a real race. Please post your experiences on the drag strip or at a Viper club event, but consider what the 'He revved at me, so I had to show him who was boss' kind of posts sound like.

Good natured smack talking is one thing. Kids with a chip on their shoulders kind of dialogue is another. That can get pretty tedious in no time

Peace,

Jim

 

[brett]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Yeah Jim! Great job! I have only one word of advice. You may want to start the "track smack" with someone of lesser skill....like Adelberg maybe. All in all, you're off to a great start..........welcome!

 

[Gavin]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

When I was a kid playing in a sandpit provided by someone else I always figured...their sandpit...they make the rules.

Sometimes I would convince the owner of the sandpit to change a rule or two.

Sometimes I didn't like the rules - I went and found another sandpit.

If you don't like the rules here - request a change in a polite and reasonable manner. You will either get what you want, or not.
Then choose- stay and play, or leave.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

Interesting thread indeed!

I don't think there is an invalid point made anywhere above, although some are worthy of further discussion. I think the key here is that this is exactly what your web page header says: Viper Club of America Discussion Forums. Key word? Discussion. I enjoy some of the smack talk and think it is healthy as long as it is in good fun. The problem becomes when the posts become personal attacks. Insulting someone's mother, car, nationality, or even experience (or lack thereof) should go to e-mail. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I think a true measure of a fast 1/4 mile car is what it can do on motor only with street tires" and another thing entirely to say, "You wimps that run with nitrous and slicks are a bunch of sissies that couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag." Same basic idea, but said in a much more antagonistic way.

Steve's point about DC looking in on the board should also be taken to heart. I suspect that the original idea behind the VCA was to create camaraderie among fellow Viper owners, provide good venues to drive and show your Viper, as well as attract more people to the marquee. Why else would they mention the VCA specifically in every Viper brochure available at your local Dodge dealer? Many prospective Viper owners come here first (I know I did) and it can be a bit discouraging when somebody is giving a fellow owner (or Viper enthusiast) the ol' piledriver into the cement. Good fun? You bet. Nasty comments intended to hurt someone else? No thanks.

I truly believe the more posts the merrier. I enjoy reading about the races that take place, especially at the track. I enjoy PMUM's posts and just about everybody elses (except when they are ALL CAPS). If a post is simply a veiled attack on somebody as a person, I think it (the post) should go. My fourteen year old son reads this board every once in a while and I like to think he gets a kick out of it. I am comfortable that what he reads here can be interesting (even the 6347th post on Zaino) and that there is more respect shown here than many other boards. Is that a bad thing?

Chris

 

[H8TOW8]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

"If a new, enthusiastic owner wants to talk "Wax my Viper" then dont read the thread"...

What gives with the double standard, Jon? You tell Mumford not to read about the Zaino posts and basically to ignore them. Why can't those who are not interested in a little "smack" or kill story just ignore those posts?

What about a section of the board for Smack-a-holics? 18 years old or older protected with a password? It would be easy to set up. This rule set WILL, IMHO, fragment this board and we are stronger together than apart.

Ask Tom Welch how his board traffic and posts have gone up since the "crackdown". Lighten up people, and be open to others opinions and wishes. People in this board have a bad case of tunnel vision and "I am right and you are wrong". The world is not that black and white.

 

[PMUM]

Re: Here\'s the Rules of our \"PG\" board

JonB, if you had been paying attention you'd have noticed that the uproar has ABSOLUTELY (sorry for the caps Chris) nothing to do with smack. It just so happened that the usual suspects were the ones questioning why posts were deleted without explanation. Even you asked why a post was deleted without explanation and got canned. Seems to me that we're on the same side. If you'll reread this thread, you'll notice that YOU were the one who came out windmilling with the insults, not the "pimple-poppers". Do you have any idea how annoying it is to see "I ordered a part from JonB and actually got it....now that's service!!!"? It's fashionable (yet annoying) to do so but nobody has ever piled on one of those posts, because it's a (relatively) open forum. I guess when I ordered my parts from you I should've proclaimed to the world how they actually showed up. I'll just have to start publically thanking people for doing their job to get in the "in" group. I'm sorry, my fault. How's this for practice--"Thank you Joe!!! Today I ordered a sandwich from Subway and it didn't get screwed up. Now that's customer service!!!"

Chris, I think both sides agree with what you said. "Smack talkers" don't just pile on people for no reason. The difference is that their responses usually involve some humor.

Jim, anytime.

Also, does anybody have a reason for Kid's 2nd banning? Funny how nobody explained that one. Rumor has it that if he were to respond to this post, this is what he'd say:

"Once again Jon "Buy" you are missing the point. The issue isn't what "smack" is appropriate. This whole mess started over the questioning by a few members over WHY certain posts were deleted/locked/edited. If moderators want to lock a post because it doesn't comport with certain Puritanical views, fine, just leave a messaging stating so. All the other b.s. that has been brought into the mix has detracted from the central issue that the little band of guys with too much time on their hands that choose to run this Board, have in the past, and will continue in the future, to
exercise their control to mold members' posts to their view of what is acceptable. I don't think most people would have a problem with the guidelines for posting, but an explanation as to WHY a certain post violates those guidelines is not too much to ask.

However, through the recent controversy, it is apparent that two distinct groups within the Viper Board have fundamentally different views on how the Board should be moderated. The group of guys who like to shine up their Vipers, populate events where members can pat themselves on the back for being cool enough to buy a Viper and sugar coat tuner/supplier experiences are all in favor of getting rid of any post that isn't essentially a Zaino or exhaust FAQ, doesn't prop up Board sponsors or questions any motivation of any Board moderator. The other group of guys has a lot of younger guys that actually race their cars on the track (yea, Janni) or street (boo, Albert), aren't really into the show and shine crowd and prefer to have everyone present all of their experiences good or bad, with or without
supporting evidence in triplicate, regarding tuners so that intelligent buying decisions can be made.

The fundamental difference, however, between the two groups is that the first group lacks any and all respect for the second, whereas the second is much more willing to overlook the mundane banter favored by the old guard
and just post/read what interests them. Group 1's answer to a difference of opinion is to silence those that disagree, and then rationalize it only after enough people complain. If you don't respect someone else's right to express their opinion, if not the opinion itself, how can you expect the
same in return?

A perfect example is Jon Buy going to the pimple popping smack or whatever as a way to justify the iron hand with which the Board has been moderated. Give it a rest, the whole thing revovled around a pi**ing contest over who
had power on the Board, not some invasion by Supra toting teenagers posting obscene challenges. Then, to top it off, Jon Buy does HMS one better on the "internet whiner" blast with his, "I don't need young Viper owners" take.
Hate to tell you this, huckster, but we don't really need a snake oil (no pun intended) salesman lecturing us on appropriate club behavior. If I really need some tech advice, I might just ask my tech (imagine that) , or even call up Racist Frank (he seems willing to give his opinion on all sorts of things). And, if I really need that bottle of Motul, I can probably find another supplier in about 2 seconds over the internet and not have to listen to a 45 minute exhaust system sales pitch. Point being, don't get too
impressed with yourself. Just sell your stuff and get it to the customer in a reasonable amount of time (for which, I'm sure you'll be roundly praised, as if you just came up with a plan for peace in the middle east). But lay off banging on anyone who may wish to post something that doesn't meet your FAQ vision. I'm pretty sure we can deal with the live and let live attitude, can you?"


WAR FREE THE KID MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!!!