How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 '05 for BOOST

[KenricGTS]

How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

I am putting on a supercharger on my '05 SRT do you think I should upgrade the pistons to forged? Has anyone had problems with the pistons after supcharging? My understanding is that the pistons are cast what are they made of? Let me know what you think.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

If I remember correctly, your car is with Doug Levin. If that is indeed the case, I would take his recommendation over just about anything you read here. He really knows his stuff and your car is in GREAT hands! Wish mine was down there too!

 

[SnakeEye]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

Alright this may not answer your question directly but ponder this if you haven't already (yeah sure)...
How much power ya need? lol How fast do you want to go and how quick do you want to get there? Reliability, drivability, all-out performance and the balance in-between. Not to forget, what are you willing to spend? Choices, choices. Nice to have 'em. Sounds like you're on the right track by adding a SUPERcharger to your beast. Look forward to seeing the results. I know I'm liking the added power of being blown.

 

[SNAKEPILOT]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

SnakeEye,
Are you happy with your 3.55 gears and the supercharger?. And, if so, which tires are you using?
Pondering my options in order to keep those pesky Ford GT's in their proper place.

 

[C.Thomson]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

Your car wont be near fast enough. You should have gone for the full monty!

 

[SNAKEPILOT]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

Who makes the full monty, Ford?

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

If you can't afford forged pistons - WHY would you consider supercharging unless you are going to keep the boost VERY low?

Kinda like buying a Vitec Honda engine but never spinning it onto its race lobes.

The bolt on Paxton kit left alone - I'm sure will be fine, and if DLM has anything to do with it - it'll be fine...

but if you even THINK about wanting decent boost - you do not need to ask bro - pay the money and do it right or cry later when you are forced to do a COMPLETE rebuild at much greater cost that probably includes a new block and heads.

For every success story on the cast pistons there's half a dozen sad ones - why risk it?

The problem is not just the cast piston - that is only a problem if you detonate, the other problem is the high ring land. They can't cope with the high cylinder pressure of boost and high compression.

 

[SnakeEye]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

SnakeEye,
Are you happy with your 3.55 gears and the supercharger?. And, if so, which tires are you using? Pondering my options in order to keep those pesky Ford GT's in their proper place.

Yes, I do very much like the 3.55's. The gear works great with the supercharger to keep things on boil in the desirable rpm range for max performance and as a plus 6th is actually usable. As for tires, still stock for now but thinking the Pilot non-runflat might be a good alternative come change time.

 

[KenricGTS]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

Chris, I think you are right just do it up! Heads cam pistons and lots of boost.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

For every success story on the cast pistons there's half a dozen sad ones - why risk it?

The problem is not just the cast piston - that is only a problem if you detonate...

Torque - No doubt you have a LOT more experience with this than most of us, knowing you are with one of the Viper tuners that do this very well. One question and one comment: The question would be if the 6:1 "sad vs. success" stories is true, why have we never heard about any of them here? Again, I don't doubt that you know what you are talking about when it comes to super or turbo charging, but I do think that there is just a teensy bit of overhype about the cast pistons fallibility in a Viper (not Mustang) forced induction environment. While I can see where DC/SRT has made some questionable decisions in order to cut costs, I can't imagine that they redesigned the SRT engine with pistons that are that vulnerable. In an absolute worst-case scenario, I could maybe fathom a 6:1 ration of successful cast/charged Viper vs. those that developed problems. Cast pistons have been in Vipers for the past five years, with a LOT of them getting supercharged with no piston swap. Again, not doubting your expertise, but am curious how many have actually had a problem with a "stock" Paxton install.

The comment was regarding detonation. Kenric has an '05, which comes from the factory with knock sensors. I assume this should greatly reduce any potential detonation problems.

Thanks for the feedback to the many of us considering an upgrade!

Chris

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

haha - Chris the 6:1 was typical air plucking to make a point... I personally have never seen a successful cast piston SC Viper - but have HEARD there are a few. I've known of SEVERAL failures and watched one blow on the dyno.

first point - I'm just a regular guy here like everyone else - I'm not a tuner

re your specific point - DC has not designed a bad piston.

The high ring land positioning on the SRT10 pistons is EXCELLENT for n/a power.... it is not a fault! It helps the SRT10 engine make more power on less fuel than it would with a lower ring land.

The PROBLEM is when you introduce BOOST to that. Boost creates more heat, and that heat is transferred to a top ring that is TOO CLOSE and it does not like it.

that's about as simple as I can explain it

Please - I am not saying a reliable supercharged cast SRT10 cannot be done... I'm just saying I would not do it. It might last 50,000 miles - it might last 5000 - but a stock one might last 120,000.

 

[Krazy PSI]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

Y2K5SRT, My 2002 cast piston car was definately not a success story. I had one of the first SEAN ROE BLOWER kits
on my viper with a stock bottom end. Take the advise that TORQUEMONSTER has recommended. He knows what he is talking about.
--------------------------------------
2003 SRT-HEFFNER TWINTURBO "1040RWHP&1135RWTQ"
1999 DIABLO VT-HEFFNER TWIN SUPERCHARGED "620hp&740tq"
2005 MERCEDES CL65-HEFFNER MODIFIED&TUNED "650HP&830TQ"
2005 MURCIELAGO ROADSTER-HEFFNER SOON TO BE TWINTURBOED
2005 AUDI S4 CABRIOLET HEFFNER Rs6 ENGINE CONVERSION (WIFES CAR)
2003 HUMMER H2 HEFFNER WHIPPLECHARGED/6SPEED TRANSMISSION CONVERSION

 

[Viper IV]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

If you want boost, you better change to chrome molley rods with the pistons. The stock rods are powder poured and are the weakest link besides the pistons. I've investigated and am very interested but won't touch the engine until I get my traction (wheel hop) corrected. Would be a waste of money if you can't hook up to the street and low boost is also a joke for the money.
Bob

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

VIPER IV- you want to replace the conn rods with Forged Steel. OEM pushrods are what (usually) gets replaced by chromemoly.

 

[KenricGTS]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

Thanks for the responses. Pretty much backs up what I was thinking. Y2k5srt brings up a good point would'nt help that I have a knock sensor on my '05?

 

[ARMORGOD]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

I spoke with both DLM and DC on the phone about the stock Paxton kit and long-term health of my engine before I bought mine. Both were very positive about the stock Paxton being fine. As has already been mentioned, excess heat is a real problem for cast pistons. I was told that the Paxton's cooled charge, at 7psi, is a safe bet (this is why I decided not to even wait to see Sean's blower, as it probably won't come w/an intercooler).

 

[Viper IV]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

Daniel
I stand corrected (chrome molley was the wrong term) but yes I agree the rods need to be changed. Biggest problem is bent or broken rods per the engine shop I spoke to and a race shop that only works on Vipers.
Bob

 

[glenn hofstetter]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

I have the first production Paxton kit ever on my "cream puff". It is very conservatively tuned by Dan Cragin and is putting out 600 RWHP. I have 15,000 miles on it and all is fine. The rods and pistons are stock and we run on 91 octane fuel. I don't know how much power you're looking for but 600 on the street is more than you will need. It passes smog and just about every car on the road.The horror stories you have heard just aren't so if you have the kit properly installed by someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: How strong is the bottom end and pistons of the Gen 3 \'05 for BOOST

"IF" being the operative word - and Dan Cragin is one of 3 Viper tuners in the whole country I'd trust to do a creampuff or stock SRT10 - good choice.

The other point is this - the Paxton uses the stock intake so does not suffer from unequal fuel distribution problems that the Roe can.... not rubbishing the Roe - just saying that it needs even more careful tuning to ensure all 10 cylinders are on the same wavelength, whereas the Paxton won't alter the factory balance - just need careful air/fuel and ignition timing mods.