Loss Of Control, Accidents

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Some of you want Electronic Devices to Manage brakes per wheel, throttle etc, call it stability control call it what you like.

I have a much better solution. All performance cars have electronic devices that limit access to power. Example the Viper(all performance cars) would be de-tuned electronically to 150 hp and 150 ft lbs of torque with a top speed to 75 MPH.

To gain access to the total available power and performance there are a couple choices:

1. Take an accredited High Performance Driving School and on completion if the School feels that you have a satisfactory understanding of car control and have demonstrated same in a Viper, and your acceptance of liability and responsibility for control of your car. Then the total performance would be available by the Driving School removal of the de-tuning features.

2. Before taking delivery the Owner must sign a liability release for, the vehicle manufacture and all related subcontractors, dealership as well as the State and Federal Government. The owner must also accept responsibility and liability for all drivers this vehicle.

Now we can all feel secure, warm and fuzzy that we are safe in our cars, not really but who can make you fee secure and be responsible for your actions?

 

[Turbo63]

These posts really continue to intrigue the hell out of me.....almost all of the spin-out, crash posts relate to residential street and highway driving not the bump and grind of the race track. DC makes this car for public consumption right - there are no warning labels on it like smokes or booze right? With any car common sense should always prevail. Whether a Viper, Vette or Porsche doing stupid things with the car can result in seriously bad situations...one would argue the same thing can happen in a VW Bug -- sure some of these cars have the control nannies (of which most are defeatable) but not using good judgement leads to problems. That recent post about the father and daughter in Las Vegas was simply terrible but I bet he got behind the wheel and really stomped on the gas -- he did not use good judgement or respect the power of the car -- one might also argue (for some) that taking a high performance course can lead to more problems i.e. suddenly after 48 hours of a class a marginal driver thinks they are superman behind the wheel -- just another perspective right. We need to manage these vehicles with the appropriate level of diligence and good judgement -- the egg under the gas pedal approach in many regards. I think thats the bottom line here. Being pragmatic given the circumstances of that day/nights driving will lead to years of safe enjoyment with these cars. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

"-- he did not use good judgement or respect the power of the car -- one might also argue (for some) that taking a high performance course can lead to more problems i.e. suddenly after 48 hours of a class a marginal driver thinks they are superman behind the wheel -- just another perspective right."

No Argument at all!

From my experience when you finish a Skip Barber program you do feel a little more empowered to control a car. You also realize your limits as well as that of various vehicle platforms. If you leave a Skip Barber Driving School and drive beyond your and or the vehicles limit you qualify to Win Darwin's Award! If you do not know what that award is here is the link. http://www.darwinawards.com/

Owners and drivers have to accept Responsibility and liability for their actions. Unfortunately many assume no responsibility and blame others for their own misdeeds!

 

[womsterr]

Thats a craptastic idea!!!! Maybe we should have a federal fee for a "high performance" vehicles to cover them dingbat factor. Bottom line - there will always be folks who qualify for the "more money than brains" category....

 

[Y2K5SRT]

While I certainly agree with the idea that the "software" (driver) upgrade should be first and foremost, my argument for something such as a switchable traction control is not from a safety aspect. That just happens to be a byproduct. I like the idea from a more competitive aspect: Hooking up. While there can certainly be an argument made for an excellent driver launching a Viper to near perfection, runflats and 500 horsepower do not go well together. Throw on a Paxton and you have almost introduced more problems than solutions. Even the most experienced quarter miler struggles to get that "perfect" launch - either they rev too high (spin) or they go too low (miss the powerband).

While you could further argue that it diminishes the "thrill of victory", I suspect that when those pesky AWD Porsches manage to eek out a win they have no such misgivings. If (and when in many cases) that Chebbie manages to thump you off the line, it is doubtful that either the winner or loser will attribute it to traction control - when in reality it could very well determine the two category occupants.

 

[fluffy]

What I'd like to see is Dodge acknowledge that people who can buy a Viper can also afford to call a flatbed when needed, and ditch the run-flats altogether. Forget the spare tire completely. With cell phones and AAA I simply don't see the need for it. The rotating mass benefits from a lighter wheel alone would make it a better car and the traction is just an added bonus.

 

[quickysrt]

alot of these problems happen to people that purchase the viper as their first supercar. my first "fast" car was a 2004 zo6 and i nearly killed myself with the traction control on. my ego was deflated and i had a lot more respect(+ caution) while behind the wheel of these things.

i work to dang hard for these toys and i do not want to lose them hurt myself or others.

 

[Turbo63]

I completely agree with these last posts completely HOWEVER it still boggles my mind that people get in any of these super powerful cars (Vipers, Vettes, Porsches) traction control or not and do stupid things like flooring the car or not being attentive to shifting and braking. This isnt a Disney World ride its real life in real traffic. Similar things happen to people who dont respect Motorcycles. Gives the morgue incremental business in my perspective.

 

[redsrt]

fluffy,
I would think a better solution than the flatbed would be for the Vipers to come with (gasp)a jack, lug wrench, and
a spare tire that would fit both the front and rear (for limited driving of course). For short trips around town, or when you want to drive really hard, you (duh) take them out. For long trips, I prefer to have the option of changing a tire and getting to someplace of my choosing, rather than being stuck out on the road in never-never land (ever drive US50 west out of Colorado, its billed as the lonliest road in America and you can drive for hours without seeing another vehicle.)

Of course dodge would have to spend another 50 bucks to add a jack and spare tire and they are way too cheap to do that for a car that only sells for $85K!

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I think the free flatbed idea already exists. Doesn't a new Dodge come with a window sticker and plastic card that has a toll free 800# to call for any roadside emergency? I think the service is free for a year or two.

 

[fluffy]

Of course dodge would have to spend another 50 bucks to add a jack and spare tire and they are way too cheap to do that for a car that only sells for $85K!

Ah, but I don't want the extra weight and reduced space that a tire/jack would bring. I suppose it could just be taken out of course, that's fine. It just seems like they didn't think those run-flats through in terms of weight and traction penalties.

 

[TomSlick]

I think that's a great, inexpensive way to solve that problem. Even the new Sea-Doo's have 2 different keys that you can give one to your kids and they can go have fun safely. I once let a younger girl (bad idea) drive my blue car, and she punched it and did a 180 in the middle of the street. To drive these cars you need to have some experience or some time in the car before putting the petal to the metal.

 

[GTS Bruce]

I expect there to be a lot more loss of control road crash occurences.Mostly not with Vipers.There are a lot of relatively inexpensive American iron that someone can get themselves killed in.400-500 hp vetts,cadilac cts-v,400 hp pontiacs,etc.Lawyers and undertakers are rubbing their palms together in anticipation. GTS Bruce

 

[Viperized]

I think it would be helpful if the selling dealer just told the new owner a little about the nature of these cars. Even a pre printed form for the new owner to read BEFORE driving the car. Could it hurt to tell the new owner to be careful accelerating, especially in cold weather or on roads with anything slippery(leaves, sand, gravel, H2O etc.).I think it would go a long way in avoiding new owner accidents. What would be the drawback to this?

 

[TacDoc]

Hey Fred, send the idea of speed governers to F1 and have them remove their electronic aids. It will all be a safer world.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Interesting how many took my post as a serious suggestion. It was for those who blame the Viper for loss of control and/or those who can not accept responsibility for their driving limitations and the consequences of bad judgement.

 

[kverges]

The US attitude about car crashes is interesting. Driver error seems to be a cause of last resort. For contrast, look at Germany. Anyone with a drivers license can buy laps at the Nurburgring's Nordschliefe, a demanding, fast track that is so dangerous F1 does not race the full course any more. There are trees and armco everywhere, and something like 120 turns and 12 miles or so, such that a very fast lap in a very fast car is in the 8-minute range. Drivers and motorcyclists crash and die there with some regularity.

Yet there is no public outcry to sue the manufacturers of the vehicles, operators of the track, or to close the track. Why? I think there is a far more sensible belief that personal responsibility is the issue and place to lay any blame. In addition, I understand that German drivers have more rigorous training in driving.

For some reason, in the US driving is viewed a chore, the tedium of which should be relieved by in-dash DVD systems, loud and complex audio systems, cell phones and of course cupholders so that you can do things other than drive when behind the wheel. Combine that with a complete lack of genuine driver training that deals with car control and emergency accident prevention or avoidance. Finally, cars are so competent these days that people almost expect them to drive themselves and in any event owners of high performance cars seem to think that the car itself will make them faster or better than other cars. In fact, a high performance car guarantees that, if you lose control, it will be at a far greater speed.

I doubt anything will change, but it would be nice to see that any person spending over say $50K on a sports car also be required to take the time and money to attend a proper driving school. Let's face it, most owners of these vehicles feel the need for speed and a street lined with poles, ditches, oncoming traffic and so on is not the place to first experience the limits of control and performance of your car.

Dream on, I know.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Keith - A very responsible view.

In Germany, Italy France the drivers on the Auto.....(equivalent to our Freeway) even drive responsibility. They cruse in the right lanes and fly in the left lane. The watch their review mirrors and if a car is closing they make way. What a novel concept driving with consideration for others.

The Viper is a wonderful sports car and it would be a shame to have it changed to a vehicle for those who refuse to take responsibility or are in denial of their driving skills.

Drivers have a problem launching so they want traction control to manage their 0-60 feet times. Next they will want a wireless X-mas Tree connection to activate the clutch and throttle.

Give me more V10 HP, less weight, better brakes, better handling and that is it.

It is funny at the Team Viper/SRT VOI meetings, I have attended, the message was performance. One or two of 50-60 people wanted cruise control, cup holders, etc.