MASH'S APEX 550 STROKER

[Bill/APEX Motorsports]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Since there seems to be a lot of finger-pointing going on here by people who aren’t or shouldn’t be involved in this, I have to tell my side of the story and the facts as I know them.
There are quite a few facets that seem to have been left out of this story. Yes, we do offer a warranty on our Lethal packages, and yes, Mashour was provided the warranty. Here is what the warranty states in its entirety:

“APEX Motorsports warrants each Lethal Viper package we install to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for 1 year or 12,000 miles, whichever comes first. The warranty covers the engine assembly but does not cover the clutch assembly or other drivetrain components. The warranty period begins on the date of delivery. This warranty applies only to the original owner of the engine at date of delivery (i.e. date of final payment). The warranty will not apply to damages resulting from detonation, overheating, misuse, incorrect maintenance, modifications, or accidents. The vehicle must be delivered to APEX Motorsports at the owner’s expense for inspection before any warranty authorization will be given. APEX Motorsports reserves the right to repair or replace the engine assembly after inspection. APEX Motorsports shall not be held liable for any consequential damages resulting from a warranty claim. This warranty voids all previously issued warranties and is non-transferable.
A dealer or mechanic of your choice in your area may complete minor repairs that might be needed and are covered under warranty only with written prior approval from APEX Motorsports. Failure to comply with this rule may result in a loss of warranty coverage.”

This is the exact warranty that was provided to Mashour. I would consider it a given that he would show this warranty to anyone who would be working on his car so as to abide by the guidelines set forth by the warranty.
Mashour’s car left APEX Motorsports via the transporter sometime shortly after January 16, 2003, after his final invoice was billed.
What has failed to be mentioned is that after the car left here, Mashour had the camshaft changed twice. Yes, twice. That means the front of the engine had been removed twice and without our approval. In addition, at a minimum, the valve covers would have to come off and the entire valvetrain removed. Normally, the cylinder heads are removed to keep the lifters from dropping into the motor when the camshaft is removed, but Heffner says he has a tool that doesn’t require removing the heads. However, disassembling and removing the valvetrain was supposedly done. Thus, the engine was modified from its original assembly. The moment that the engine is opened, the warranty is clearly voided. It also introduces the possibility for error.
I did say that I would take care of any problem that was caused by a part that we installed. However, that was before I found out that the camshaft had been changed twice.
Because the engine was slated for the supercharger, and Mashour didn’t want to wait until Paxton released theirs and have us install it, he elected to have us leave the stock injectors and fuel system on the engine, break in the motor, and have Heffner upgrade the fuel system when he was installing his supercharger package. I gave him that provision.
We cleaned and inspected the engine assembly multiple times before installation. The intake was not only cleaned by Extrude Hone, as is their normal process, we also clean out each Extrude Honed manifold with cleaner prior to assembly. The engine and car ran perfectly fine when it left here. As is common practice with a new motor, we check compression and leakdown before delivery, and all was fine and within specs. Mashour broke in the engine for more 1,000 miles, dyno-tuned it, had the supercharger installed shortly thereafter, had it tuned again, and it made fantastic power (890rwhp). I believe the engine had about 1,500 miles on it when the filings first appeared. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong about the exact mileage.) After 1,500 trouble-free miles, the camshaft was changed twice, and the lowered-compression problem occurs shortly after.
I assume the oil was changed multiple times during break-in, as we suggest with any new motor. (We changed it twice here.) I would think that with all the oil changes the car has had, at some point, someone would notice metal filings in the oil before the engine was disassembled. I was never notified of such an occurrence. (Part of the supercharger installation involves drilling and tapping the oil pan for the oil return line. This procedure does create metal filings.)
The car was driven even more. The camshaft was changed twice, and not once was anything mentioned to us about metal filings. We never heard anything other than the car made insane amounts of horsepower. Yet after the camshaft was changed twice, the power started to fall. I cannot honor a warranty in a situation where error could have been introduced by someone else, and when there is a warranty issue, I will not just take someone else’s word for it. That’s why we include in our warranty that we must have the car or complete, unassembled engine here for inspection.
Without any prior approval (especially written, per our warranty), the engine was partially disassembled by Heffner. Jason called to say there was a compression issue, and I requested pictures on July 26, 2003. On July 28, 2003, he emailed me, “I’ll send you the pictures tomorrow morning, my camera is at home.” After many attempts via email and phone to get any sort of pictures, I finally received eight pictures on September 29, 2003, over two months later. Four of the eight pictures are somewhat blurry or inconclusive. (This is precisely why we require that the engine be in-house for disassembly.)
Since we built the motor, we absolutely have to have the opportunity and the right to inspect the engine in-house to determine the source of the issue. We were never allowed that opportunity, since the engine was fully and completely disassembled elsewhere and not at APEX.
The fact that people who are not involved in this are posting saying they know all the facts is a bit disconcerting. Do you know all the facts? Who is giving you those facts? Until now, you’ve only heard one side of the story, and you’re a third party. This is between Mashour, Heffner, and APEX Motorsports.
Finally, what would other tuners do if put in this situation? I find it extremely hard to believe that, given what is clearly stated in the warranty and what modifications were performed to the car after it was delivered, they would act any differently.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Bill,

I would say that written warranties and whatever are all well and good, but the bottom line is... did something Apex or Apex's suppliers did cause the problem? Let me ask you something - IF it were *proven* that it was grit from the extruding process that was left in the engine, would you step up and warranty the motor or would you quote the warranty and disclaim liability? Its a serious question, I'm not being sarcastic or rhetorical with that.

The answer is pretty easy to determine. An analysis of the "stuff" found in the engine needs to be done. If that "stuff" proves to be grit from the manifold porting that was done by Apex's supplier, then Apex needs to make it right. That is aside from any "you can't open the motor or we won't honor it" type stuff.

I also have to say I read from your post Bill that you are pointing the finger at Jason Heffner. Before you say you aren't, these statements make me think that:

"What has failed to be mentioned is that after the car left here, Mashour had the camshaft changed twice. Yes, twice. That means the front of the engine had been removed twice and without our approval."

"Normally, the cylinder heads are removed to keep the lifters from dropping into the motor when the camshaft is removed, but Heffner says he has a tool that doesn’t require removing the heads. However, disassembling and removing the valvetrain was supposedly done"

" (Part of the supercharger installation involves drilling and tapping the oil pan for the oil return line. This procedure does create metal filings.)"

"Yet after the camshaft was changed twice, the power started to fall"


I guess the one side we have not heard is Jason Heffners. I don't think Mash can respond because I don't think he is in the country and longer, so Torque apparently is voicing his "side". Let's hear Jason's side of this - it's the final remaining piece.

And Bill, please let us know if you will cover all costs associated with repairing this *IF* it turns out that it was infact grit from the extrusion process left over that caused the failure.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

You are right Bill - I am only a third party but there was stalemate - now you've come out and thats good - I respect that.

If I got any fact wrong and can be shown wrong - I'll also gladly apologize for that error.

I understand your position better - but you expect a customer who is very unhappy to send a car or engine back 4000 miles from the east coast to the west coast just for you to inspect and place them at your mercy. I wouldn't under those circumstances - nor would you in their shoes. So is that stalemate?

Wouldn't it have been more practical to either go check yourself or if too busy contact someone you know or trust nearby - or ask any Viper tech local to go and see and report. Jason would have worked with that I'm sure.

Your positon is clear - but there is still sand thru the engine and Jason did not use sand - you did.

My understanding is that the bulk of the material is clearly extrude honing sand -something only Apex were involved with. I have at least one independent person that has come to me and said they personally were there and identified sand in the intake and got it all over their finger by poking their finger into the intake. Any metal filings are secondary to the sand - it is the extrude honing abraisives that were identified to me as the problem - any metal is simply an after effect.

I'll leave it to people more directly involved to take it from here - I've done what i set out to do - stop this issue from being ignored.

 

[Fishtail]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

How far and where does Mashour live?

-Lou

 

[MaxedGTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

How far and where does Mashour live?

-Lou

bump!

 

[1TONY1]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

He lives in Maryland/Virgina right outside of D.C. or in D.C.

 

[Jason Heffner]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Bill, it would seem that you have the worst case of selective hearing that I have ever come across. There are a couple of things that you apparently do not understand so I will clear some of them up for you. First let's address the crankshaft keying issue. Your machine shop cut the key groove too far back in the snout. So far, that the key groove actually goes under that crank seal which would cause a major oil leak. Instead of fixing it right you installed some sort of tin sleeve over the crank and then cut the key in half. I'll post the picture later.

Now to cover the rest of the engine. The car was driven to my shop after approximately 500 miles was put on the new engine. We installed larger injectors and tuned the car. The power output was around 570 rwhp, slightly weaker that we would have expected but nothing a little boost wouldn't cure. The supercharger was then installed and dynoed. Power output was 890 rwhp but Mashour was unhappy with the drivability of the camshaft. We then changed the camshaft by using rare earth magnets to hold the lifters up so we did not have to remove the heads. At this point the engine had close to 1000 miles on it. We then immediately dynoed the car again. It was at this point that we discovered that the power was significantly down, around 750 rwhp. I had expected that the smaller camshaft would decrease horsepower but not that much. We then immediately went back to the camshaft that was originally in the car, dynoed again and power was still down to roughly 770 rwhp.

The next thing I suggested to Mash was to perforn a cylinder leakdown test to determine whether the problem was in the engine or in the tuning. The leakdown test showed that the cylinders had between 20 and 40 percent leakage in all holes. We then immediately contacted Wayne and yourself to explain the situation as we did not want to give you the opportunity to hide behind some stipulation in your warranty which you are doing now. After more than a week passed by and we were unable to obtain a response from you or your technician Vince we had no choice but to tear the engine down for inspection. Upon initial teardown large vertical scratched were discovered on the cylinder walls as well as the pistons themselves. After still not hearing from you the engine was then sent to the machine shop for further analysis. After carefully inspecting the internal components the machinist explained that it was some sort of small abbraisive debris that caused the pistons, piston rings and cylinder walls to wear prematurely. The first thing that came to mind when he said this was the fact that the intake had been Extrude Honed. After removing the rear expansion plugs from the intake, which had not previously been donwe for cleaning purposes, large amounts of Extrude Hone material and metal shavings which would appear to be from grinding the throttle body opening were discovered. We then made several more unsuccessful attempts to contact you. In fact it was not until after someone began to post on this message board that you contacted us. I then explained to you in detail what the situation with the engine was. You then finished the conversation by saying "OK I'll let you go, just give me a call and let me know what you find with Mash's motor". This was after I hade explained to you exactly what had happened and that th extrude hone material was obviously the cause of failure.

The thing that simply blows my mind is how you continue to dance around your mistake, hide behind warranties and continually point fingers in every direction but your own. I have since sent you pictures of the pistons, cylinder walls and debris from the inside of the intake manifold, which I will post here later today, and you still can't stop making excuses.

So I'll explain some of this to you once again. There was no noteable debris in the oil pan which is the only place it would have gotten during the camshaft change. The only debris was in the intake manifold where it NEVER could have gotten when "the camshaft was changed twice".

There is no question whether you are legally obligated to take responsibility for your mistake but whether or not you feel morally responsible to make good on your mistake.

I did everything in my power to give you a fair chance to deal with this off of this message board, purely out of professional courtesy, but it seems that this is the only way to deal with you.

At this point I would expect to hear more excuses and to see you dance around the fact that you simply made a mistake so let's hear it.

I would also like to say that I am completely with Treynor on the matter of sending the intake and other parts to a non biased third party for inspection and comparison to determine what this substance is in the manifold if it would help Mash in any way. I am eagerly awaiting your response.

 

[Jason Heffner]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Fishtail, Tony, Mash used to live in Virginia. He now lives in Saudi Arabia so it is difficult for him to respond.

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I will contribute this about APEX as it seems to be relevant here. As I posted earlier, they did a great job on my car and met every expectation and then some. I was living in the San Fran Bay area at the time and was giving serious consideration to having my car back for the 750 package. While going over the details with Bill, I mentioned that I would be moving sometime during the installation process and that the car would have to be delivered to me probably across country. Ironically, I told Bill of my intention to have the car delivered to another tuner for a SC package after he was done with it. While he did not advise against going forward with the work, he was very deliberate and careful to point out that living in Florida or Texas (where I thought I'd be moving at the time) would involve some degree of risk if anything needed to be serviced under warrantee after delivery. We went over the details of the warrantee and, as he just outlined above, he explained to me that should an issue arise I would have to either send the car back or an assembled engine as it was the only way he could be sure APEX was at fault and responsible for the damages. It seemed like a reasonable expectation.

This is not meant too suggest that MASH got the same warnings, etc.. But I considered, and consider, this type of risk to be mine as the cars' owner so I ask A LOT of questions before spending $15,000 - $20,000. Ask poor Bill and Wayne how much time they have lost in the shop because of all my questions. After all the questions and research I determined that the risks were too great to do, ironically, just what MASH ended up doing 6 months later. I did end up moving far from Nor Cal and did not want the shop which just rebuilt my engine, and more importantly my warrantee to be $1,500 dollars / 2000 miles away.

To me, both tuners appear to have a solid argument and it is too bad MASH is not here to fill in more of the blanks.

I don't think it is fair to expect APEX, or any tuner, to simply accept everything as gospel based solely on a few pictures. JH's explanation makes perfect sense and he surely seems frustrated. And Torquemonster, I know you were just trying to help your friend but you certainly did not present this on any level but one that immediately painted APEX in strongly negative light. I feel that was somewhat unfair.

In my opinion, MASH has to take the real hit here. No one forced him to work with two different tuners on opposite sides of the country. If he wasn't prepared to ship the car or engine back to APEX, as is clearly outlined in his warrantee, he should be expected to deal with the consequences. As soon as the crankshaft keying issue surfaced, and it was determined that what APEX apparently did was responsible for the problems, the engine should have been delivered back to APEX if MASH expected it to be addressed under the warrantee. Surely, at some point APEX deserved to see more than pictures if they were to be expected to refund work performed 8-9 months and 1000s of miles earlier.

Just my .02.

 

[joe117]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Wow, just the crank key screw up alone would be embarrassing enough to make most shops do just about anything to hide the error from prospective customers.
You would think they would do whatever it took to fix it without everyone hearing about it.

I'm thinking APEX must not give a cr@p about what people think.
Knowing they don't care what people think of their work, most people would avoid having them do any work on their car.

And across the country or not, they know what happened to the crank and they know where the abrasive came from.
They may be able to get away with this but it makes them look very bad.
First to do what look's like bad work.
Second, to hide behind the warranty when they are offered what seems to be a reasonable way to help make this right.

 

[TX WHOS YOUR DADDY]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

HMMMMMMMMMM 570 RWHP IS A BIT WEAK FOR A 550 C.I. PACKAGE.NORM K

 

[ronviper]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Out There, if you read Jason's reply you would see the Extruding material is still in the intake. To me it is simply an oversight which caused a big problem. Should the customer be held responsible? Jason seems very professional and pays attention to detail, he didn't want to go public till Apex did. Where would you put the blame, on Mash, Jason or Bill? Problems and mistakes happens all the time it's how you handle them that separates the good from the bad. You should not use the paying customer as the scapegoat for your error.

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Yep, here we go.... Time for everyone to jump out to do battle for there favorite tuner and slam me. Clearly, a lot of you guys like and support Jason and his work and rep seems 2nd to non. Just as DLM has a cult-like following that will absolutely tear your head off dare you even whisper ANY suggestion that DLM doesn't walk on water. But try, just try to look at this OBJECTIVELY.

You provide a service, deliver a product and communicate to your customer all the contractually aspects. Each agrees, thus initiating a contract, so you go forward with the work and deliver the product. Months later you get a phone call with someone's description (a competitor) of a problem that blames you and without evidence beyond some pictures (taken by the competitor). You wouldn't want an opportunity to inspect any of this yourself before just taking the blame and paying out?? Especially, after you clearly pointed out in writing to your customer the necessary steps required for warrantee work to be performed. Of course you would. And if you read BOTH SIDES above you will see that each has an acceptable and believable explanation for many of the details here.

BOTH APEX and Jason seem very professional and pay attention to detail. Before sending my car to APEX I checked with many of their past customers, the BBB, this web site, etc.. and could not find one negative. However, neither is perfect. Each has made mistakes in the past and will make mistakes in the future. As men trying to run successful businesses each has to be allowed to operate at least within the mutually agreed upon terms of there respective written and/or verbal warrantees.

MASH is responsible for his own car. MASH is responsible for choosing the people and businesses with whom he does business (including any potential problems associated with where they are located). MASH is responsible for abiding by the terms of the warrantee contracts he enters into with whomever he does business. Had MASH delivered the car or engine back to APEX we would be having an entirely different discussion.

I understand the point about reputation but clearly APEX feels enforcing the basic asepses of there warrantee is equally important. That is the risk they take and are apparently willing to do so.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Outthere - I wouldn't know MASH if I tripped over him. I posted because this is the clearest case of a serious engine problem being easy to diagnose I've come across - it is a no brainer.

Normally when an engine fails or suffers a serious problem there are many clues and many possible explanations to muddy the waters - and in situations where there are two tuners - it can get complex or difficult to determine fault.

This is not the case here.

1) Bill admitted to Jason he was not sure if the rear expansion plugs had been removed from the intake for cleaning.

2) Jason found they had NOT been, so the cleaning water in fact had merely pushed all the crap to the back of the intake around that area - to slowly disolve and go through the engine over time.

3) The source of the damage was clearly identified and traced to the intake. It is extrude honing sand and only APEX was involved with both the extruding and the intake manifold work.

4) This may sound like a new concept - but when Jason taps the oil pan - he actually takes it off. Work is done off the engine, cleaned then refitted. Imagine that!

So Bill wants us to understand that they are at liberty to completely [******] up and no one has a rat balls chance in hell of any redress unless they take everything back to him. There's a few Texans and others around this forum who'd have their own way of dealing with that problem if it happened to them

Bottom line - there are other tuner choices more concerned about their good name who would correct honest oversights.

Fact is - most reasonable people can forgive honest errors if the person responsible says "I'm so sorry" then works to a MUTUALLY acceptable solution. APEX talked the talk but won't walk the walk.

$3500 compared to the cost of shipping and all their time and effort - down time to them - I'd have thought was a bargain!!!!! APEX you've just lost this one big time unless you see your way clear to honor the reasonable request.

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Torquemonster - Your passion on this is surely compelling but your being involved in this matter in such detail just makes zero sense. You succeeded in getting the issue raised here but aren't all these details non of your business at this stage? Wouldn't now be the time for you to leave it to the parties with an actual interest in the matter? You clearly are not 100% informed on all the details, are anything but impartial and as you just stated it really has nothing to do with you. Especially the terms of any potential settlement.

If you, or anyone, chooses to not do business with APEX based on what's posted here is something for APEX to deal with. If MASH and APEX are to come to some type of settlement is up to them.... I just don't see where you get off posting like such an authority on this matter.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Outthere - our posts crossed....

You are technically correct.

But this is a small community.

You forget that APEX repeatedly could not be contacted and would not respond to messages left until the customer could wait no longer. Would that give you confidence to send your car back 4000 miles on a whim they'd fix it at no cost to the same professional standard they machined the crank?

Apex may have acted technically correct to their small print, but they've proven so far to be morally bankrupt. I hope they fix that.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

OutThere,

I hear what you're saying, and I can't say I disagree with everything you wrote. HOWEVER, there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, so to speak. Yeah, Bill/Apex can point to the technical aspects of the warranty, but that seems a cop out to anyone. I don't think Apex should just write a blank check for the repair, but it would seem that the problem was theirs, and based on the information we have, it seems they caused the problem or allowed it to occur. Therefore the responsibility lies on THEM to have whatever checks done they like (that may absolve them from liability if infact it was not their problem).

It seems like Apex isn't working with the others to resolve this, but rather saying "technically you violated the warranty so we aren't going to pay for it". Just sounds like a cop out. Bill should offer to have someone he trusts, or one of his own guys check out the engine. If there is extrude hone material in there, then they out to man up and fix it. If there isn't, then they are off the hook.

How does them pointing the finger at others help anyone out? To me, an observer, it seems like they hoped they could sweep it under the rug, and now they are passing blame off and quoting the warranty and saying they won't fix the problem.

Bill still hasn't answered the question. Bill, if it was *proven* that the stuff that was in the intake and cylinders was extrude hone material, would you then pay for the engine to be repaired to it's fully working condition?

 

[MaxedGTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Fishtail, Tony, Mash used to live in Virginia. He now lives in Saudi Arabia so it is difficult for him to respond.

Thanks Jason,i can understand Mash not responding then. But did Mash ever have the car in Saudi Arabia?

Max

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Torquemonster - Your passion on this is surely compelling but your being involved in this matter in such detail just makes zero sense. You succeeded in getting the issue raised here but aren't all these details non of your business at this stage? Wouldn't now be the time for you to leave it to the parties with an actual interest in the matter? You clearly are not 100% informed on all the details, are anything but impartial and as you just stated it really has nothing to do with you. Especially the terms of any potential settlement.

If you, or anyone, chooses to not do business with APEX based on what's posted here is something for APEX to deal with. If MASH and APEX are to come to some type of settlement is up to them.... I just don't see where you get off posting like such an authority on this matter.

Actually I hate it. I liked APEX. Read my posts before this thread - I've never attacked any tuner.

Why post now?

This problem goes back to when - May?

It is now what? October?

I've sat on this for months - expecting APEX would do what was right. Why?

Because what Bill posted several months ago made it clear we could all trust him to do the right thing.

A casual conversation recently proved nothing had progressed and in fact it was looking a zero outcome, and MASH still had no car.

Others have been too polite and patient - I just took the bull by the horns in the hope it might jolt Apex into action. Bill at least did respond - but his post did not fix anything.

I'd have done this for you buddy. I'm outta this topic now I've got no personal stake in it and the point is made.

 

[Big Medicine]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

All this just goes to show one thing: do your own work. Send the parts off for mil but put it back together yourself & learn to tune. Otherwise, you are at the mercy of experts who don't agree.

Taking it apart & putting it back together is most of the fun anyway.

 

[King GTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

We'll all be anxiously waiting to see if Apex makes good on totally ruining Mashs' Viper. It's very clear to me, based on what's been posted, exactly what happened.

You must be registered for see images

Jason Heffner's reputation is impeccable! Hang in there Mash!

 

[cstegall]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Just as DLM has a cult-like following that will absolutely tear your head off dare you even whisper ANY suggestion that DLM doesn't walk on water. But try, just try to look at this OBJECTIVELY.

Doug doesn't walk on water?...coulda fooled me.

Head tearing off will begin at 5 p.m. sharp on Tuesday.

That is all. Discuss.


CStegall

 

[Vic]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I had a customer, (just happened to be a foreigner who spoke broken English), who knew nothing at all of mechanincal issues, and pretended he didn't understand much of what I was telling him. "You fix, ok? I don't know elevator, you fix!" He was very manipulative and sneaky. He would tell me I was his hero, then ask for unpaid work. He tried to make me do things above and beyond the agreement, and I even did some extra things for him. He was always trying to get more than he deserved. I fixed his elevator, and the "very next day", (according to him), it broke again. He insisted it was the same, exact problem. When I asked him how he knew it was the same problem, he just says, "I dunno elevator, you come fix, ok?" So in the same minute, he goes from asserting adamantly that it was the "same exact problem", to admiting that he didn't have a clue waht was wrong! He said I should come fix it for free, since I had "just worked on it". He thought that gave him some implied warranty. There is an implied warranty under public contract law, if the elevator (or whatever device) fails for the exact same reason, or is related to the work done, if the work was negligent. (Extrude Hone sand resisdue?) After my repair, the elevator had actually run for three months before it started leaking underground, a fact which he gleefully ommitted. And he also hadn't paid his bill for thirteen weeks, even though he had agreed to net 15. Then he gets a liar, whoops, 'scuse me, I mean, a "lawyer" to write me this nasty letter saying that my work was negligent, I'm unresponsive, etc, all untrue, no basis at all for any of the comments! So now he is demanding that I fix his elevator again for free, and to avoid having a third party "spin" the issue, I took a look at it myself. Turns out it had developed an underground leak, not related to the electrical repair I had performed. But if it had been broken again due to anything I had done, I would have eaten the cost, despite my disliking this customer immensely. You gotta do what is right, for it proves your integrity to the world at large. And if you don't, your reputation will suffer, people will lie about you, try to discredit you to further their own business. Sometimes its better business practice to go through the motions of discovery, even if its not your fault, to avoid the appearance of negligence. And in that particular case, the evidence exhonorated me. (I video taped it!) But if I hadn't gone back to check it out, another company would have done the work, and invariably blamed it on me. (Thats almost standard practice in our cut-throat industry) So to avoid that possible scenario of "he said, she said", you gotta do the discovery, no matter how big a b*tt head the customer may be.

Bill, if there is a latent defect, such as Extrude Hone sand residue, you need to do what is right, and recify the error. But if the analysis shows the sand residue to be something else, then please excuse my rant.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Sez Smokin: "I witnessed the intake manifold in person. There is no doubt that there is a SIGNIFICANT amount of extrude hone abrasive in the intake manifold. When you put your fingers in through the freeze plugs, it almost comes out in clumps" So for those who continue to cluelessly point fingers and have no first hand knowledge should not second guess Jason Heffner's integrity.

IMO From the facts, its clear that Apex is at fault. Also as far as the warranty goes, if a vendor/manufacturer provides a warranty, dont they have to PROVE that modifications were the CAUSE of the failure in order to deny a warranty claim? That if they are unable to do that shouldnt they have to stand behind their warranty?

FYI Smokin can't post (banned).

 

[Marc Lublin]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

OutThere,
Let me just add one point. I have seen Doug Levin fly up to NY solely to fix a customers car. The failure had nothing to do with Dougs work, but Doug wanted to see first hand what happened and help his customer out quickly. Jason Heffner recently flew to Texas to help out his customer. His customer posted on the board about what a stand up guy he was for doing this when he did not HAVE to. That is what makes a following and a reason why people stand behind their tuner. I don't think anyone is disputing the warranty fine print. I think we would all like to see the right thing done here. Heck, with all the time that has gone by, Bill could have probably made reservations and purchased a pretty cheap ticket and seen for himself. Unfortunately it is not as easy and cheap to get the car to him. I bet MASH would have paid for the ticket himself just to get this thing resolved.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Who's Mash?

Terrorist sympathizer.

Oh, the fun we had before the bannings.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Who's Mash?

Terrorist sympathizer.

Oh, the fun we had before the bannings.

Yep, I'm with Chuck. Nicely put.

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I agree with you Marc and those types of details surely seem to separated the good tuners from the very best but it still doesn't mean that this is the open and shut case it was initially portrayed to be. Additionally, you sure as hell haven't seen me ever mention how I felt this should not be discussed on this site in detail as it has been. That's what this place is for. I just thought, and think, that's it's a good idea to look at it from every side before judging. I think it's great TM brought it up I just feel that once the issue has surfaced we shouldn't involve ourselves in such detail as there isn't any way for any of us from the outside to know all the important details. MASH, APEX, and Jason are all capable of speaking for themselves. That's all.

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Terrorist sympathizer?!?! And the guy is now in freaking Saudi?????

What gives there?

 

[Marc Lublin]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I agree, this isn't an open and shut case. That is why I hope the parties get together and resolve it. I didn't see anything in Bill's post about any type of resolution. Where is Wayne when you need him to talk it up.