MASH'S APEX 550 STROKER

[onerareviper]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

What a nightmare for MASH.

Bottom line: Have a third party Viper Tech. inspect the damage to determine fault. At that point, the person 'at fault' needs to do what's morally right. End-of-story.

 

[GaryA]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I was present when the leakdown tests were done and the subsequent tear down of the engine took place. There is NO doubt that the material in the intake caused the scarring of the cylinder walls which led to the early demise of Mash's engine. This is pretty clear cut.

The only question has been would Apex do the right thing and resolve the issue instead of using the warranty to avoid paying to have the engine rebuilt.

Mistakes happen in most businesses. I'm quite sure that this was unintentional, but, it's how you resolve the problems that differentiate good customer service from bad.

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I am not sure but I believe that Wayne is no longer affiliated with APEX. He was never really a full time employee. I always got the impression that his was a sales/consultant type role. I sure never asked him anything technical.

Good point about Bill not mentioning a resolution. The car was messed up and no one wants to see MASH take 100% of a hit after spending so much w/ APEX. If he did offer such a low settlement figure that seems to be more than fair on MASH's part.

 

[ronviper]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Out There, how did the extruding sand get in the intake did MASH OR JASON put it there? NO!!! Unfortunately APEX is responsible and if you don't see that then your handle is correct as being out there. This is not an issue of tuners but what is right and wrong, you are ok with Apex so screw everyone else. If Heffner,DLM or any other tuner did that my opinion would be the same, they should stand behind there work. .

 

[joe117]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I never sent anything out to be extrude honed. I was just wondering if the people that do the port job are supposed to clean the parts. I have no idea.

When you get things back from a place like that I wonder if you can always expect a big *** of sand and metal chips to be stuck up in some corner?
It would probably be a good thing to check out parts for contamination but is it normal?

 

[OutThere]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I know very, very little about these things. Question:

How would it be possible for the engine to run so strong (890 RWHP) for only a short-time then just go bad if the defect was caused initially by Extrude Hone? And it lasted anywhere from 500 to > 1000 miles??

And since it has been so long, as so much as been done to the car since, is having a 3rd party inspection at this stage a viable option?

 

[joe117]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

The abrasive used in the hone process is like a paste. I would think that it could dry out and stick someplace in the intake.
Everything would be fine for awhile. As the clod of abrasive dissolved or at least broke away from what it was stuck to, it would enter the engine through the intake valves.
In the combustion chamber it would get on the cylinder walls, get stuck between the piston and wall and some of it might get into the oil.
Probably not much would get past the rings. At least at first.

Over time, the stuff would wear scratches in the wall causing poor sealing and ring wear.
This would cause a drastic loss of compression.
This loss would drop the hp slowly but surely.

After the walls were damaged, the ring wear would continue even without any more sand.

This kind of thing in your intake is about as bad as it can get.

 

[Bill/APEX Motorsports]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

The metal sheath that is installed over the front of the crankshaft is called a crankshaft sleeve. It’s there to create a better and tighter seal of the front oil seal, and we use them all the time. It’s a perfectly acceptable way to ensure the best seal possible, and it did cover the extended portion of the keyway. The crankshaft was not defective and the crankshaft sleeve was not negatively affecting performance or reliability one bit.
A few hours ago, I got off the phone with two different Extrude Hone technical representatives. According to both Rick Miller (Extrude Hone-Pennsylvania) and Ed Melendez (Extrude Hone-California), the Extrude Honing media is like silly-putty with salt in it. The putty is pushed through under high pressure, in effect carving out the inside. The process does not produce metal shavings. Instead, it produces small metallic particles that are absorbed into the media and suspended in it, even as the media is removed.
They both said that Extrude Hone’s cleaning procedure is extremely stringent. As with other parts, they clean the Viper manifolds using high-pressure air blasts with solvent, and they haven’t had issues with residual media. In fact, they even check every manifold inside with boroscopes, which surprised me. Because the media is recycled, 99.9% of it is reclaimed from the part that they’re honing, and they monitor that percentage carefully. And both of their opinions are that if a small pocket of residual media were to be trapped somewhere, it would be blown out the exhaust valves almost immediately upon fire-up (i.e. in the first two minutes), as it doesn't stick to the metal. There would definitely not be enough left to cause scoring of the cylinders, especially after as many miles were put on the motor.
I emailed them the pictures I received, and after viewing them, they said they were inconclusive. They also said that because the engine had been opened up twice, there would certainly be reasonable doubt, and it would be impossible to say exactly what did cause the scoring. And each of the reps said that you all are welcome to call them to verify what they told me.
We’ve Extrude Honed probably 100 Viper and Mustang manifolds in the seven years we’ve been in business and haven’t seen any mentionable residual material from the extruding process.

 

[RedSnakeGTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

The metal sheath that is installed over the front of the crankshaft is called a crankshaft sleeve. It’s there to create a better and tighter seal of the front oil seal, and we use them all the time. It’s a perfectly acceptable way to ensure the best seal possible, and it did cover the extended portion of the keyway. The crankshaft was not defective and the crankshaft sleeve was not negatively affecting performance or reliability one bit.
A few hours ago, I got off the phone with two different Extrude Hone technical representatives. According to both Rick Miller (Extrude Hone-Pennsylvania) and Ed Melendez (Extrude Hone-California), the Extrude Honing media is like silly-putty with salt in it. The putty is pushed through under high pressure, in effect carving out the inside. The process does not produce metal shavings. Instead, it produces small metallic particles that are absorbed into the media and suspended in it, even as the media is removed.
They both said that Extrude Hone’s cleaning procedure is extremely stringent. As with other parts, they clean the Viper manifolds using high-pressure air blasts with solvent, and they haven’t had issues with residual media. In fact, they even check every manifold inside with boroscopes, which surprised me. Because the media is recycled, 99.9% of it is reclaimed from the part that they’re honing, and they monitor that percentage carefully. And both of their opinions are that if a small pocket of residual media were to be trapped somewhere, it would be blown out the exhaust valves almost immediately upon fire-up (i.e. in the first two minutes), as it doesn't stick to the metal. There would definitely not be enough left to cause scoring of the cylinders, especially after as many miles were put on the motor.
I emailed them the pictures I received, and after viewing them, they said they were inconclusive. They also said that because the engine had been opened up twice, there would certainly be reasonable doubt, and it would be impossible to say exactly what did cause the scoring. And each of the reps said that you all are welcome to call them to verify what they told me.
We’ve Extrude Honed probably 100 Viper and Mustang manifolds in the seven years we’ve been in business and haven’t seen any mentionable residual material from the extruding process.

Bill, the media you described above from the reps at Extrude Hone matches the abrasive silly putty like abrasive media that is STILL INSIDE the Mash's intake manifold. If they used a bore scope to find the metallic shavings, they didnt find all of it. Both SmokinV10 and I witnessed the presence of this media INSIDE the manifold. Also wouldnt you say that its awful peculiar that Extrude hone is so quick to absolve themselves of wrongdoing? Ultimately if they were negligent in cleaning the media, they would be ultimately responsible for the damages. If ANYONE saw this intake manifold in person there would be NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER where this came from. So if it didnt come from Extrude hone, where did it come from? The fact that they have to use high pressure air and solvents to get out the abrasive seems to indicate that the abrasive DOES STICK to metal to a degree. Otherwise why wouldn it just "fall out"? Im guessing there is enough abrasive still present in that intake manifold to take out another viper engine....but according to extrude hone, it would burn up right after startup

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Bill,

Thanks for taking the time to look into this further, I'm glad that you are keeping tabs on the situation and I hope you will help in resolving it.

Having said that, there *is* material in the manifold. It is the opinion of some highly qualified people that this material is what caused the problem, and certainly that sounds reasonable. Now, I don't believe there is any reason for Jason Heffner to concoct this story if it was his fault, as he has a great reputation for service. He certainly didn't stuff material into the manifold, and I don't know what else could have caused the problem. Furthermore, as RedSnake says, that abrasive in the manifold came from somewhere! Now, if Extrude Hone has never seen any of this stuff staying in a manifold, how can they say authoritatively that it *would* have been blown out at the first startup? I don't see how they can make that claim unless they have seen this problem before.

Based on the information that we have, it appears there was indeed extruding abrasive in the manifold. There is a very easy way to verify! Someone needs to do an analysis on the material in the manifold and see whether it is extrude-hone abrasive or not. If it is, it seems to be a pretty open-and-shut case, and Extrude Hone owes Mash the cost of a rebuild.

I would say that the guys at Extrude Hone should *not* be the ones to do the testing, as they have an incentive for it NOT to be their 'stuff' in there.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Cutting into crank keyways is cool?

then

"He said, she said"

Bill, your post has clarified how hard you are trying to get out of it, there is no search for truth.

I don't think you want to know the truth because if you did you could very easily by going to the source and you could have done that months ago. You have been the only one hard to contact.

Sooner or later a similar issue will arise in your Mustang and other customer base - and you'll face the same scenario all over again. One day you'll meet someone who will call you on it with more than a phone call or net post. You need to hope that that Mash doesn't have a good lawyer because although my law studies were only a minor - I know enough to see a good case, and this is one. Peace.

 

[GaryA]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

We’ve Extrude Honed probably 100 Viper and Mustang manifolds in the seven years we’ve been in business and haven’t seen any mentionable residual material from the extruding process.

So, since it is quite clear that there is "mentionable residual material" in Mash's motor, then one can only conclude that this one slipped through the process and destroyed the motor. No other plausible explanation exists.

I don't think anybody is saying that this was done on purpose. Warranties cover defects in materials and workmanship. This obviously falls into one or both of those categories. Do the right thing and honor the spirit of your warranty.

 

[Jason Heffner]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Bill, I am fully aware of what a crankshaft saver sleeve is. They are generally used in high mileage applications when the crankshaft is excessively worn, not on a brand new 5000 dollar crankshaft. I guess by reading your explanation we should all hurry up and buy these sleeves and install them on our cars. Or for that matter Diamler Chrysler should begin installing them right at the factory, they should maybe even thank you for figuring out a solution for the problem that they don't have, unless you guys have keyed the crank that is. I ask all of you who are reading this, what would you rather have, a properly keyed crankshaft or one that someone has made an error on and installed this sleeve onto? Keep in mind that this is a brand new crank that you are paying for on a 30000 dollar engine upgrade. The way I see it is that the crank seal and crankshaft hub are built to precise specifications, would it not be reasonable to assume that installation of this larger diameter sleeve could cause premature and or excessive wear on the crank seal. I highly doubt that Dodge would consider this an acceptable fix. I would be more inclined to believe that they would be installing a new crank.

I'm glad someone at Extrude Hone was able to reassure you that no intake manifold could ever leave their facility with reside still inside. I do however recall a conversation that you and I had in the past where you specifically told me that when Mashs' manifold came back from Extrude Hone you yourself noticed a large amount of this gray putty still in the intake did you not? You proceeded to tell me that you washed the intake once again in an attempt to remove all of the abbraisive material. I'll bet you didn't use "high-pressure air blasts with solvent" or a borescope. I guess this kind of blows that excuse out of the water. When I asked you if you had removed the rear expansion plugs during the cleaning process you said "no". Never at any time did I suggest that any metal shavings came from the Extrude Hone process, I said that the shavings would appear to have come from porting the throttle body opening.

After having explained to you numerous times that there were no significant amount of metal shavings or debris in the oil pan or oiling system you still don't seem to get it. So I'll ask you this, could you please explain to me how abbrasive gray putty could have possibly found its way into the intake manifold or the cylinders while I was replacing the cam. I'll explain again that neither the intake or cylinder heads were removed at any time during the camshaft installation or removal. You continue to use the excuse that the engine was apart for the purposes of replacing the camshaft and that debris could have gotten into the engine at that time. If there were metal shavings or debris in the oil pan I would have to agree with you but, I apologize to those of you who caught this the first ten times I said it, THERE WERE NO SHAVINGS OR DEBRIS IN THE OIL PAN, ONLY IN THE INTAKE!

I have searched these forums for days and am still unable to locate your response to the question, if this is conclusively determined to be your fault will you pay for the repairs?

At this time I will again make the suggestion that we send the manifold, and if necessary, the engine to an unbiased party who would then compare the putty and shavings from the inside of the manifold to the Extrude Hone material and the aluminum that the intake is made of. I would also be happy to send the supercharger, intercooler and related plumbing for examination as well just so we can clarify that nothing could have come from any of them.

Again, nobody is interested in hearing your excuses which is all that you have come up with to this point. We are only interested in finding out what you will to to discover the truth and what you will do to resolve this matter.

I am eagerly awaiting your response.

 

[Jason Heffner]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I am trying to post the pictures of the material that was found in the intake as well as the crank sleeve, cylinder walls and pistons but am unable to get it to work. Would someone here be interested in posting them for me if I were to e mail them to you?

 

[ChoiceViper]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

After reading this thread for a few days, I would'nt let Bill/Apex even do an oil change on a viper, let alone any engine work.

Step up to the plate man!! It's blatently obvious what happened.

Is a few thousand dollars worth more than your reputation? Or are you really out of the viper biz and don't give a ****?

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Email them to me Jason, [email protected] and I will host and post them

 

[joe117]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

"if a small pocket of residual media were to be trapped somewhere, it would be blown out the exhaust valves almost immediately upon fire-up (i.e. in the first two minutes), as it doesn't stick to the metal. There would definitely not be enough left to cause scoring of the cylinders,"

Oh yes, That will be fine, a small clod of ABRASIVE material getting sucked into a new high dollar engine.

No problem, the ABRASIVE material will just run right out.

Can anyone think of anything worse? Can anyone believe that a little ABRASIVE in the engine is just fine?

Would you take your car to a place where they think a little ABRASIVE in the engine is OK?

Jeez! It's ABRASIVE, like valve grinding compound!!!

 

[ronviper]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Bill after Jason's last post it seems you should fly in and take a look first hand. From my perspective Bill you are between a rock and a hard place. Stand up to your responsiblity and be a man about this issue, put it to rest and move on. Procrastinating only make you look VERY BAD TO THE VIPER COMMUNITY.

 

[FranciscoR.]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Being a naive 23 year old, I gotta ask the following. To me it seems that even in high performance Vipers, there is a lot of he-said , she-said. I am just wondering if the engine is obviously messed up, and it wasn't the owner, or Heffnar or God who did it, who's left? I know it's a business but sometimes business have to go above and beyond what the call of duty, or legalities state. I don't own a Viper but know someone like Heffner or Levin would probably help me out, even if it meant a little extra money, or extra time on their part. I would wager it's not their extreme awesome products, or even their service that makes them so cool and popular. I would venture it's their love for the car. They care for the car,and for the owner. The products and services are only secondary to their passion for the vehicle. Look, I don't know if you are or aren't at fault Apex. Just do the "right" thing already. You have one man with a lightened wallet, Heffnar kicking his own butt helping people out here, and now DLM is getting some "stuff". Just do what you know you should. $7,000 is NOT a lot of money when it comes down to it. $3,500 if you pay half is most certianly not a lot of money. Is your reputation worth it? Even if you do go completely out of business, do you want this to be your last venture? There is still time to make the wrongs right...so do it.

 

[joe117]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

A contract for work to be done often has a phrase that goes something like,
"the job is to be done in a workmanlike manner."

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I will post the pics when I get to the office... they completely back up what Jason wrote in his post - you can see the scored cylinders, and you can see the material caked in the intake.

 

[cratica]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Salt in a $30,000 motor is ok? Yowza!

If it were me I wouldn't settle for anything less than
the full cost of a rebuild. ion.

This material wasn't left there on purpose obviously,
but was neglected and therefore Apex's fault and no
one else should bear the burden($) except Apex.

Why would this take so long to resolve, seems very
simple to me.

Does anyone know what happens to such a compound when it get's very hot? Does salt harden? I don't know but
obviously it can be very destructive.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Here are the pics (click the image for the full size, full resolution image)

This is the crankshaft with the tin "sleeve" and shows the keyway that was cut too deep

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Piston

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Cylinder bore showing scoring

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Another shot of cylinder bore showing scoring

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Intake, showing caked-on gray substance

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"The stuff"

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More of "the stuff"

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[GaryA]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Those last two pictures just make my skin crawl. There's a lot of ugly stuff in there.

------------
2000 Black/Black RT/10
Heffner 1000SCi 843 rwhp 792 rwtq 10.20 ET @ 141 MPH
Heffner Performance - Home of the World's First 9-second supercharged Viper!

 

[FranciscoR.]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

h-e-l-l no...that just aint right. If APEX did this, fix it right away and stop BSing around. This is ridiculous.

 

[joe117]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Hey guys, he said a little of that stuff would just blow right through.
Heck, what's a little valve grinding compound in your engine?
Some of you guys are so picky.

The fact that there is still grit in the intake, and the engine look's like it was done in by grit..... Well, are you trying to make some connection there?
What is this CSI?
Jeez, can't a guy leave a little abrasive in an engine without the whole world saying he did something wrong?

 

[GaryA]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Hey guys, he said a little of that stuff would just blow right through.
Heck, what's a little valve grinding compound in your engine?
Some of you guys are so picky.

The fact that there is still grit in the intake, and the engine look's like it was done in by grit..... Well, are you trying to make some connection there?
What is this CSI?
Jeez, can't a guy leave a little abrasive in an engine without the whole world saying he did something wrong?

And remember, this is what was left after about 1000 miles on the engine.

 

[Vic]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Hey guys, he said a little of that stuff would just blow right through.
Heck, what's a little valve grinding compound in your engine?
Some of you guys are so picky.

The fact that there is still grit in the intake, and the engine look's like it was done in by grit..... Well, are you trying to make some connection there?
What is this CSI?
Jeez, can't a guy leave a little abrasive in an engine without the whole world saying he did something wrong?

ROTFLMAO!

 

[Sean Roe]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

Hi Everyone,

After looking at the pictures, here are some questions I would ask myself if I were involved:

1. Is the material in the intake magnetic?
2. Is Extrude Hone's media magnetic?
3. Has anyone sent samples of the material to all parties for testing? There seems to be enough of it to go to everyone involved. All you'd have to do is mix it with a little clean motor oil and send it to a diesel truck oil analysis center (most big truck centers have this on site and it only costs about $19).
4. Did anyone do an analysis of the engine oil from the engine? The printouts tell you everything that was in the oil and how much of it there was.
5. Based on the custom configuration of the motor, has anyone considered that the material may actually be the worn metal from the rings, liners and pistons getting blown back into the intake due to reversion? Reversion could easily push the worn metal from the cylinders up into the intake depending on the camshaft profile.

Just to clarify, these are questions solely for the purpose of identifying the source of the material, not the cause. Let's hope for a quick resolution for all parties involved.

Regards,
Sean

 

[MaxedGTS]

Re: MASH\'S APEX 550 STROKER

I have to say i agree with Sean to some degree about this. Get an independent unbiased party to test the metal.i don't mean there's anything wrong with Heffner or Apex's opinion. It would be a better way to settle this if they would both agree.
Max