Oil Change - is it time?

[SHADOW]

I bought my '94 on Sept. 27th it had 8,200 miles. The previous owner said the oil change was done 500 miles prior, but I can't get in touch with him as to the date it was done. I am up to 11K miles, and the car is in the garage. Please give me some info on when to do the oil service, how much a Viper tech will usually charge, etc. Thanks...

 

[Ron]

Given the fact that you can't be sure he used Mobil 1 10w-30 (factory fill) and really verify the date and mileage, why not change it to establish the baseline? If you do it yourself, $50 for oil and $10 for the filter. If you bring it to the dealer, probably $90 or so total but since I've always do it myself, can't say for sure.

You might also want to get the oil analyzed to verify the condition of the engine, especially with GEN I headgaskets. Easy to do if you click here

 

[Jerry Dobson]

Is it time? No you past it already!

You have 3300 miles on your Viper since the last change. I would have changed the oil in my daily driver 300 miles ago.

I change the oil in my Viper anywhere from 1000 to 2000 miles. Oil is cheap, your Viper Engine is not.

 

[Nexus-6]

Heck, regardless of what previous owners have said I spend that first weekend with any new car flusing and replenishing all fluids in the car.

It's cheap and easy (and I kinda secretly like doing it too).

 

[Finally got it !]

Shadow. Don't bring it to a viper tech for a oil change. Get the oil and the filter from Wal mart and bring to my house ASAP. I have low profile jacks and have done numerous changes on my GTS. Total cost maybe $45.00. They will charge you $100.00 or more at a dealership. Except Chuck Tator.

 

[Silver Snake]

Is it time? No you past it already!

You have 3300 miles on your Viper since the last change. I would have changed the oil in my daily driver 300 miles ago.

I change the oil in my Viper anywhere from 1000 to 2000 miles. Oil is cheap, your Viper Engine is not.

Whoa there! I think this is a bit too often. 3300 miles should be well within the life span of the oil. At 3300 miles, I would think you still could go without change, but 1000 to 2000 miles in between changes. Come on what kind of driving are you doing? Sheesh.

Or maybe you don't drive that much. Then I could see it would be more of a time issue. I am not really sure how offten (in months) you should change your oil.

Mark

 

[slaughterj]

Is it time? No you past it already!

You have 3300 miles on your Viper since the last change. I would have changed the oil in my daily driver 300 miles ago.

I change the oil in my Viper anywhere from 1000 to 2000 miles. Oil is cheap, your Viper Engine is not.

Whoa there! I think this is a bit too often. 3300 miles should be well within the life span of the oil. At 3300 miles, I would think you still could go without change, but 1000 to 2000 miles in between changes. Come on what kind of driving are you doing? Sheesh.

Or maybe you don't drive that much. Then I could see it would be more of a time issue. I am not really sure how offten (in months) you should change your oil.

Mark

The manual says to change it every 6 months. 1k-2k miles seems way excessive in frequency, unless it isn't driven much. Mine is a daily driver, and often runs a bit over the 3k (sometimes every 3500 miles ), and the oil doesn't look bad when removed.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

I thought Mobil One could be left in a car for 10k miles. I always change my oil every 5k. Mobil One or not. I was told it was the oil manufacterer that want you to change every 3k and that under normal condition was not necessary.




2000 GTS Steel Grey
6 piston Baer claws up front, Front brakes in back, Quaife differential, GKH half shafts,
Alloy fly wheel, Short throw shifter, Polished aluminum intakes, K&N air filters,
Optima battery, Sterling silver key, ACR 5 point harnesses.

 

[DarcShadow]

Actually the 3k thing is more from "that's how it's always been done" kind of thing. 20 years ago 3K for oil was pretty much the limit. Today's oils with "standard" driving can easily tolerate 5K and the Mobil 1 is supose to be good for 10K maybe even more. The Viper manual says for average driving 7600 and hard driveing 3300 so I think 5k is a good middle point.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

I also like 5k because I can go by the odometer to see when my next oil change is.



2000 GTS Steel Grey
6 piston Baer claws up front, Front brakes in back, Quaife differential, GKH half shafts,
Alloy fly wheel, Short throw shifter, Polished aluminum intakes, K&N air filters,
Optima battery, Sterling silver key, ACR 5 point harnesses.

 

[Steve-Indy]

To me, oil is one of the more forgiving fluids in respect to change intervals...especially when using a well formulated synthetic in a low usage car. I AGREE with Ron (as I usually do)...change oil now as a baseline (I personally send a sample to Blackstone with each change in each Viper)...but the advice from Nexus-6 is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT...change ALL the fluids ASAP...and you will have a new baseline, and hopefully avoid major problems later...it NEVER ceases to amaze me the number of 94, 95, 96, 97 Vipers that I encounter through Club activities that are running on the original factory coolant fill !!!!

...and, as Nexus-6 admits (as does Ron), it's FUN !!!

Get that Viper READY for spring, and in the process, you'll really take a big step in getting to know it. ENJOY the process !!!

 

[Ron]

Tom, our resident oil expert (I'm just a poser) mentions gallons of fuel used as a nice measurement of oil change interval. I like that idea as it accounts for hard useage (low MPG) and highway (easy usage, better MPG) but since I don't keep track of how much fuel I use, I end up changing it every fall with about 2 ~ 3K miles on it. Having the new oil sit in the oil pan over the winter is no problem and better than having the engine sit with potentially corrosive oil for those few months

I agree that with today's oils, especially synthetics like Mobil 1, 3K is on the low side. That said, 10K is way too much. Maybe the oil could make it, though you'll never know for sure if you don't have it analyzed for TBN (total base number), but your filter certainly can't. It will have long since clogged and go into full bypass, meaning that all dirt in the oil will continue to circulate certainly causing excessive wear. Is it worth it, to save $50.00 on oil?

Case in point. I ran 5,800 miles on a 2002 Chrysler product with Mobil's best available synthetic (Delvac 1) and used a Mobil 1 filter. 6 months of usage. My TBN was down to 3.6 and my insoluble hit the max at 0.6. If I ran this expensive oil (costs more than Mobil 1) for 10K miles without changing the filter, my wear numbers would have most likely been throught the roof.

Here's a bit more on TBN from the Blackstone web site (www.blackstone-labs.com):

What is a TBN, and who uses it? In short, a TBN (total base number) measures the amount of active additive left in a sample of oil. The TBN is useful for people who want to extend their oil usage far beyond the normal range.

By comparing the TBN of a used oil to the TBN of the same oil in ****** condition, the user can determine how much reserve additive the oil has left to neutralize acids. The lower the TBN reading, the less active additive the oil has left.

An oil's function is to lubricate, clean, and cool the engine. Additives are added to the oil to enhance those functions. If the oil becomes too acidic, it will corrode the engine. A good TBN result, meaning plenty of active additive is left in the oil, is usually in the 6.0 to 14.0 range (depending on whether the oil is for gas or diesel engines). A low test result, meaning very little additive is left, is down around 2.

Scientifically speaking, the TBN is one of two "neutralization number" tests run on oils. The TAN (total acid number), which is used for hydraulic oils, is the other. The TBN measures the total basedity of an engine oil; that is, how much base (as in, a base vs. an acid) additive is in the oil to offset the deleterious effects of acids coming into the oil from combustion and other sources.

However, the TBN is not the only factor to consider when determining how long an oil can be used. If wear accumulations and insolubles in the oil build up and become abrasive, we would recommend changing out the oil, no matter how high the TBN reading.

 

[Wild Bill]

I knew I remembered reading this. IF (and that's a big IF) you believe this maybe we are doing more damage changing the oil every 3K miles.


http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

Bill

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Ron's better than a poser... he's a good researcher.

TBN is indeed a measure of remaining oil life, but as Ron's note points out, it only measures remaining "base." This is widely used for diesel oils, because diesel fuel has (had) a high level of sulfur. Sulfur+fuel+combustion and you generate various types of acids that cause corrosive wear. The basic additives neutralize these acids. Since typical US diesels are long-haul trucks with fuel consumption rates of 4-6 mpg, and drain intervals of 30,000 to 100,000 miles, the base number starts at 9 to 14 (and some are higher) and when it drops to 2 or so, it's depleted those additives. It has not necessarily depleted all the dispersant or antiwear additives, or conversely, the dispersant and antiwear additives may have been used up long before the TBN! So while it's been a decent indicator for diesel trucks, it's not the best or only way to judge passenger car oil life.

Something else to watch that might be another good catch-all is kinematic viscosity. If it goes up, it's 1) thickening due to oxidation (used up your antiwear/anti-oxidant combination additive) or 2) used so long that the light ends of the oil have been boiled off, or 3) used so long the fuel additives (or other aftermarket additives) have accumulated in the oil or 4) used up the dispersant and nasties in the oil are forming sludge balls. If it goes down, you have 1) fuel accumulation (dilution) or 2) crummy performance of viscosity improver additives.

And, ummm, changing oil in a Gen 1 isn't that fun, at least not as much as a Gen 2, I would guess.

 

[RavenFan_94]

Wow guys, great read. One question though, I opened my manual to my Porsche. It claims that with MOBIL-1 SYN I should change the oil ever 15k. I would think that they are conservative with regard to a published owners manual...

Not arguing, just asking.

 

[2001 Sapphire Blue]

Is it time? No you past it already!

You have 3300 miles on your Viper since the last change. I would have changed the oil in my daily driver 300 miles ago.

I change the oil in my Viper anywhere from 1000 to 2000 miles. Oil is cheap, your Viper Engine is not.

Whoa there! I think this is a bit too often. 3300 miles should be well within the life span of the oil. At 3300 miles, I would think you still could go without change, but 1000 to 2000 miles in between changes. Come on what kind of driving are you doing? Sheesh.

Or maybe you don't drive that much. Then I could see it would be more of a time issue. I am not really sure how offten (in months) you should change your oil.

Mark

Jerry is the speed demon of KC! He drives it like he does his women....haaaaarrrrdddd!!!

 

[DR VIPER]

More often you change the oil,the better.I try to do it every 2000 miles or thereabouts...

 

[Steve-Indy]

RavenFan 94... the above quoted interval for Porsche does indeed exceed my own "peace-of-mind" limitations...with SOME adjustments for model. That said, please note the article in the PCA Panorama from April last year (I THINK that was the date) ...and if your Porsche sees ambient temps of 86F (or above), Mobil 1 10W-30 WAS NOT recommended. By my recollection, "Mobil 1 0W-40 European car formula" was the choice for Porsches past 1972 (anomg a few other brands).

There is a great deal of discussion on these issues at BOBISTHEOILGUY.com

The more I read, the less I know !!!

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Usually synthetic oils are low sales volumes, so it's more economical to formulate one oil for two markets - Europe and the US. Usually a major like Mobil will therefore sell the same oil Porsche tested in Europe here in the US. Sometimes not, so check the ACEA and API performance requirements.

Mineral oils are obviously sold in enough volume that the specs are way different in Europe.

 

[scottgf]

Tom,
First of all you are da man when it comes to oil questions.
My question goes back to the basic...When should I change my oil.
Many here on this board say, for peace of mind or whatever, change it every ....fill in the blank.....but the blank is usually VERY short intervals.
As you mentioned, changing the oil on a Gen I on your back in the garage is a beeoch...And the hassle of taking it to a shop is also a pain, not to mention that not all Viper owners (me) are rich.
I feel when I change the oil on my Gen I at 3 to 4k which is mostly street driven, I am simply pouring nearly perfect mobil one down the drain.
What are your thoughts on this?, I recall an old mobil one ad that stated 25k oil change interval.
Cheers,

 

[Blue Pilot]

I change my oil every 3000 miles on all my cars with Mobil one. I had a 1985 Chrysler Laser Turbo and put Mobil 1 in from day one. When I sold it, it had 139,000 miles and still had original turbo with no smoking or turbo bearing seal problems. If that doesn't attest to the quality of mobil one, I don't know what will.

 

[Jerry Dobson]

Oil changes can be related to how you drive. Some of us use their Viper on a regular basis…almost like a daily driver, others run Viper Days.

Then we have those that drive their cars on nice days but really hard. I never abuse my Viper. I let it warm up, and then I “get on it”. So my driving may be a little harder than the guy just taking his Viper to work. SapphireBlue… those are just vicious rumors

I drive a Gen II Viper and have a lift in my garage with an oil collection barrel. So for me to change the oil might be easier and more convenient than others. I also change transmission and differential twice a year.

When I ran motocross, I changed the oil EVERY time I road a bike. I had seven brand new MX bikes. Some guys might think that is nuts, but then take a look at Top Fuel Dragsters. They warm up the engine, change the oil, run the ¼ and then they are ready for the next change. So that is eight oil changes every mile.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Me personally?

First, I use a diesel engine oil (2X more additives, since in my experience, it's the additives that count, not the type of base oil.) It costs a little more than pass car oil, not nearly cost of synthetic oil.

Second, I write the odometer reading at an oil change on the back of the window registration sticker (state sends new one every two years) so I can use any drain interval without doing too much math in my head.

Third... drum roll... I target 4000 miles and am OK if I get to it by 4500 miles. Sometimes it's closer to 5000. From all the NY taxi and long haul diesel testing I've seen the results from, besides using decent quality oil, the key has been to never have an "oops" really long drain. Don't miss one, don't skip one, because while the oil might be fine at 5,000 miles, it might be jello at 12,000. And back when I was formulating, we tried to come up with oils that would clean up sludge or varnish in one drain, but never did it. Also, by the time you see sludge or varnish, other protection (particularly anti-wear) has long been used up. So you just don't want to go there.

Because I use a good oil and never miss a drain, I am very comfortable to use my Viper every day there isn't snow on the ground. Lately most of those starts have been at ~10F to 20F. I drive in salt. I spin the cold tires to warm them up at the expense of a cold engine. I used to autocross about 12 times a year, now try to get track time 5-6 times a year and do not change the drain interval around those events. I only have the Mopar baffled oil pan, no Accusump. Last couple of weeks has been cold short trips, this summer I drove NY-Detroit for the VCA AX at Chelsea. (23 mpg at 80 mph!) Have about 70,000 miles (50K from me) on my Gen 1 with original head gaskets. I tow a small trailer with tires, tools, and jack to the track. Have Darlington stripes on front and rear fascia.

I expect this car to outlive my need to flog.

 

[slaughterj]

Me personally?

First, I use a diesel engine oil (2X more additives, since in my experience, it's the additives that count, not the type of base oil.) It costs a little more than pass car oil, not nearly cost of synthetic oil.

Second, I write the odometer reading at an oil change on the back of the window registration sticker (state sends new one every two years) so I can use any drain interval without doing too much math in my head.

Third... drum roll... I target 4000 miles and am OK if I get to it by 4500 miles. Sometimes it's closer to 5000. From all the NY taxi and long haul diesel testing I've seen the results from, besides using decent quality oil, the key has been to never have an "oops" really long drain. Don't miss one, don't skip one, because while the oil might be fine at 5,000 miles, it might be jello at 12,000. And back when I was formulating, we tried to come up with oils that would clean up sludge or varnish in one drain, but never did it. Also, by the time you see sludge or varnish, other protection (particularly anti-wear) has long been used up. So you just don't want to go there.

Because I use a good oil and never miss a drain, I am very comfortable to use my Viper every day there isn't snow on the ground. Lately most of those starts have been at ~10F to 20F. I drive in salt. I spin the cold tires to warm them up at the expense of a cold engine. I used to autocross about 12 times a year, now try to get track time 5-6 times a year and do not change the drain interval around those events. I only have the Mopar baffled oil pan, no Accusump. Last couple of weeks has been cold short trips, this summer I drove NY-Detroit for the VCA AX at Chelsea. (23 mpg at 80 mph!) Have about 70,000 miles (50K from me) on my Gen 1 with original head gaskets. I tow a small trailer with tires, tools, and jack to the track. Have Darlington stripes on front and rear fascia.

I expect this car to outlive my need to flog.

Thanks for the info. So what do you think a typical daily driver Viper using Mobil 1 should use for a change interval? I just changed it right at 3k, but usually run several hundred miles over, and depending on travel, have run up close to 4k a couple times...

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Slaughterj, I think you're still on the safe side. Mobil 1 is formulated to meet some European performance criteria (ACEA A and B criteria, depending on viscosity grade) which means it has met some diesel performance requirements. The result is an oil with a higher additive treat rate and better overall performance than a normal API "only" engine oil. I would not hesisate to go another 1000 miles or so.

One thing in general regarding longer drains- don't forget to check your oil level. Many fuel efficient engine oils are low viscosity (i.e. 5W-30 or lighter) and are more easily volatilized. After a few thousand miles, the oil level can be lower, not because it leaked through small seams, but because it evaporated and was consumed via the PCV system. It's far less likely with synthetics or with higher viscosities, but do check.

 

[webtrader]

I agree here...changing your oil more often than needed is "Cheap" insurance. Follow the rule of 3000 miles maximum or less if the car sits a lot and your snake will live on for a long,long time !!

By the way BLUE PILOT nice car !!

~Jim

 

[slaughterj]

Slaughterj, I think you're still on the safe side. Mobil 1 is formulated to meet some European performance criteria (ACEA A and B criteria, depending on viscosity grade) which means it has met some diesel performance requirements. The result is an oil with a higher additive treat rate and better overall performance than a normal API "only" engine oil. I would not hesisate to go another 1000 miles or so.

One thing in general regarding longer drains- don't forget to check your oil level. Many fuel efficient engine oils are low viscosity (i.e. 5W-30 or lighter) and are more easily volatilized. After a few thousand miles, the oil level can be lower, not because it leaked through small seams, but because it evaporated and was consumed via the PCV system. It's far less likely with synthetics or with higher viscosities, but do check.

Thanks again for the info. I didn't figure running up to 4k sometimes would be a big deal, especially since so many new car manuals talk about doing changes at either 3750 miles (severe conditions) or 7500 miles (normal conditions). BTW, what's up with new car manuals and that 7500 #?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

There's no easy way to combine "normal," "better," and "great" oils with "easy," "moderate," and "severe" service. So the car companies have to take the most conservative route and recommend 3500 miles for most cases and 7500 miles for easy highway conditions. Europe has gotten there because the OEMs approve brands and types of oil, and the used car market is such that owners pretty much have to prove that oil was changed at certain intervals, with certain oil. They prove that by showing dealership or car service shop records. In the US, most people would say BS and do it themselves, using whatever oil they want. You therefore probably couldn't sell a US car with that history in Europe. What is does in Europe, though, is allow consumer to go extended drains because they are following OEM recommendations. The OEMs have a tiered system that shows what oil to use for what drain interval. None of this exists in the US. Because the US is limited to one level of performance (API SL) there is a pretty simple, safe, and short drain interval allowed. It leaves oils sold in the US that do have European performance an odd performance claim - we meet all those extended drain requirements in Europe, but, ummm, it doesn't apply to the US. Look at Mobil 1 (and others) that have ACEA claims. While it makes the oil better quality, it still won't let Mobil (or the others) say you can extend the drains.

This is why I enjoy diesel oils. They have hugely extended drain capability, but because of the competitive US market, aren't expensive. Only cost a little more than mineral oil, far less than synthetic, and (gentlemen: ready, aim...) in my opinion, better than synthetic oils.