Possible to bleed brakes with wheels on?

[Achilles99]

I'm about to change brake fluid on mine and a buddy's 06 coupe. Since we're doing two cars, we'd like to speed up the process (especially since the track day is next week).

Is it possible to bleed the inner and outer bleed screws with the wheels on? With the car on jack stands? Not sure how much room is near the inner bleed screw, but the outer one seems accessible through the wheels.

 

[Boxer12]

Its probably possible, but it takes only a few minutes to pull the wheels off. You should do this and inspect the pads, control arms for fractures, etc, before you head to the track. You also need to check the torque anyway, so do it right. Just my 2c.

 

[Achilles99]

Sigh... you are probably right. Pads are fine, but wouldn't hurt to check torque. I was thinking I would just raise one side at a time instead of putting all four corners up. Would have to put up all four corners in order to pull wheels off. I need a bigger garage to install a lift.

 

[Boxer12]

Just do one wheel at a time...start closest to the master and work away from it. If you haven't bought your fluid yet, try ATE blue. That lets you swap for clear and then you know the system is flushed. Change back after the event. It works great.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Just do one wheel at a time...start closest to the master and work away from it. If you haven't bought your fluid yet, try ATE blue. That lets you swap for clear and then you know the system is flushed. Change back after the event. It works great.

Ummmm.............isn't it start with the wheel furthest from the master cylinder and work your toward it

And if you want the best brake fluid, use Castrol SRF

.

 

[Achilles99]

Yeah, I agree... start with the wheel furthest away. Although I'm not sure if that's the rear passenger or rear driver. I think I found a thread where someone said the rear driver was furthest due to the way the brake lines ran. Anyone know for sure?

I'd run Castrol if it weren't $70/liter I'm a fan of Motul, it has a little higher wet boiling than ATE. I must admit that ATE is easy to see, though.

Here are fluid temps:

Worth it: The ultimate brake fluid comparison chart

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($9.95/1L)
DRY:543F -- WET:349F --- Endless The truth DOT 4 ($35/1L)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($5.65/12 OZ)
DRY:572F -- WET:284F --- US Brake/AFCO Racing 570 Gold
DRY:572F -- WET:421F --- US Brake/AFCO Racing Ultra HTX
DRY:577F -- WET:300F --- Brake Man
DRY:585F -- WET:421F --- Earl's Hypertemp 421
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING Super 600 ($16.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($69.00/1L 0R 33.8 OZ)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($26.75/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- PROSPEED GS610 ($39.95/16 OZ)
DRY:617F -- WET:413F --- Endless RF-450 ($45/1L)
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF [seem to no longer be available]
DRY:622F -- WET:424F --- Endless RF-650
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($16.95/0.5L 16.9 OZ)

Arranged by wet boiling point:DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570
DRY:572F -- WET:284F --- US Brake / AFCO Racing 570 Gold
DRY:577F -- WET:300F --- Brake Man
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:543F -- WET:349F --- Endless The truth DOT 4
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING Super 600
DRY:617F -- WET:413F --- Endless RF-450
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600
DRY:572F -- WET:421F --- US Brake/AFCO Racing Ultra HTX
DRY:585F -- WET:421F --- Earl's Hypertemp 421
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- PROSPEED GS610
DRY:622F -- WET:424F --- Endless RF-650
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF [seem to no longer be available]
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF

 

[vipernut94]

Pull the wheels off - it will save you time in the long run. Start with the wheel that is furthest from the master cylinder, and work your way to the closest.

1. Passenger rear
2. Driver rear
3. Passenger front
4. Driver front

Do the outer bleed screw first and then the inner at each corner. I am a Castrol SRF fan. I have used it on the track for years, and it is amazing! There is a reason that it is $70 per bottle.

 

[TAILWAG]

Sigh... you are probably right. Pads are fine, but wouldn't hurt to check torque. I was thinking I would just raise one side at a time instead of putting all four corners up. Would have to put up all four corners in order to pull wheels off. I need a bigger garage to install a lift.

Take your wheels off...you don't want any of that mess getting onto your clearcoat (if you have it on your polished wheels) - it can do a number on them...

 

[Achilles99]

Good call on the brake fluid damaging the wheels. I'm going to try a mityvac pressure bleeder (7201), so hopefully spillage is minimal.

Does anyone know how many pints of fluid the srt coupe takes? I went to buy RBF600, and they only had 4 pints for sale. I need to do 2 coupes. Is that enough? Track event is next weekend, so I don't have time to mail order any RBF. Anyone in Atlanta with a stockpile of it ?

 

[rcl4668]

Yeah, I agree... start with the wheel furthest away. Although I'm not sure if that's the rear passenger or rear driver. I think I found a thread where someone said the rear driver was furthest due to the way the brake lines ran. Anyone know for sure?

I'd run Castrol if it weren't $70/liter I'm a fan of Motul, it has a little higher wet boiling than ATE. I must admit that ATE is easy to see, though.

Here are fluid temps:

Worth it: The ultimate brake fluid comparison chart

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($9.95/1L)
DRY:543F -- WET:349F --- Endless The truth DOT 4 ($35/1L)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($5.65/12 OZ)
DRY:572F -- WET:284F --- US Brake/AFCO Racing 570 Gold
DRY:572F -- WET:421F --- US Brake/AFCO Racing Ultra HTX
DRY:577F -- WET:300F --- Brake Man
DRY:585F -- WET:421F --- Earl's Hypertemp 421
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING Super 600 ($16.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($69.00/1L 0R 33.8 OZ)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($26.75/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- PROSPEED GS610 ($39.95/16 OZ)
DRY:617F -- WET:413F --- Endless RF-450 ($45/1L)
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF [seem to no longer be available]
DRY:622F -- WET:424F --- Endless RF-650
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($16.95/0.5L 16.9 OZ)

Arranged by wet boiling point:DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570
DRY:572F -- WET:284F --- US Brake / AFCO Racing 570 Gold
DRY:577F -- WET:300F --- Brake Man
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:543F -- WET:349F --- Endless The truth DOT 4
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING Super 600
DRY:617F -- WET:413F --- Endless RF-450
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600
DRY:572F -- WET:421F --- US Brake/AFCO Racing Ultra HTX
DRY:585F -- WET:421F --- Earl's Hypertemp 421
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- PROSPEED GS610
DRY:622F -- WET:424F --- Endless RF-650
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF [seem to no longer be available]
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF

Achilles -- Thanks for posting this info. For what it's worth I have been using the Motul RBF 600 this past summer for multiple track days/driving schools and the performance has been phenomenal.

On a more serious note, I was originally thinking about bleeding my own brakes but was informed by folks on this board and my Viper Tech who is a straight shooter that because of the ABS system on the brakes you need a special tool that can interface with the ABS system to properly bleed the brakes.

I ultimately decided to just have my Viper Tech do it. My practice is to have my Tech do a full inspection of the car before the driving school season begins. This means an oil and filter change, inspection of belts and hoses, pads, rotors, check wheel bearings, bleed brakes with the Motul, etc. A minority of driving schools and clubs like BMW CCA actually require that you have a formal Tech inspection done and a corresponding form filled out within 30 days of the driving school. I usually have my Viper Tech do the whole inspection/brake bleed thing again about midway through the season.

Given the performance envelope of the Viper, for me it's just peace of mind. Then again, I am not a racer and not that mechanically inclined but you may want to at least research and ask your tech about the ABS/brake bleed thing before proceeding.

/Rich

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Motul RBF 600 brake fluid is very good also, Motul is also much easier to find (most motorcycle shops) if you need some in a pinch. Motul is about half the price of the Castrol, the only reason I bring up Castrol is that it is the absolute best if your a serious tracker. Motul needs to be bled more then the Castrol, other then that Motul is fine.

 

[rcl4668]

Motul SRF 600 brake fluid is very good also, Motul is also much easier to find (most motorcycle shops) if you need some in a pinch. Motul is about half the price of the Castrol, the only reason I bring up Castrol is that it is the absolute best if your a serious tracker. Motul needs to be bled more then the Castrol, other then that Motul is fine.

Agreed, the SRF is the gold standard. The Motul RBF 600 is the factory fill on the competition coupe but that may have more to do with cost versus performance than anything else.

One other potential advantage -- and Jon B may want to weigh in and correct me if I am wrong -- but I believe that when the Motul starts to go bad, i.e., starts absorbing too much water, it turns a darker brown color as opposed to the light amber color when still "good". I have heard that the Castrol does not have a visible indicator for water absorbtion but I guess if you change the fluid frequently that shouldn't be an issue.

/Rich

 

[Achilles99]

On a more serious note, I was originally thinking about bleeding my own brakes but was informed by folks on this board and my Viper Tech who is a straight shooter that because of the ABS system on the brakes you need a special tool that can interface with the ABS system to properly bleed the brakes.
/Rich

I also heard this, but it's not necessary most of the time. According to the service manual, the ABS tool (DRMIII) is only required if the ABS ICU (integrated control unit, also known as HCU) is changed. Again, according to the manual in most situations a base bleed is all that is required.

Of course, if I had a DRM tool I'd probably use it everytime!

 

[Viper Wizard]

I also heard this, but it's not necessary most of the time. According to the service manual, the ABS tool (DRMIII) is only required if the ABS ICU (integrated control unit, also known as HCU) is changed. Again, according to the manual in most situations a base bleed is all that is required.

Of course, if I had a DRM tool I'd probably use it everytime!

It's a DRBIII and if you've got an extra $7500 you can have one too! For normal bleeding you do not need a DRB. Wheels off, start at the right rear, outboard bleeder-then inboard & Motul 600 is good.

 

[Achilles99]

It's a DRIcantafford it then Service manual says inboard bleeder first, then outboard for each wheel. Is that wrong? Hope not, I bled the brakes today using inboard first.

Thanks Chuck!

 

[Viper Wizard]

It's a DRIcantafford it then Service manual says inboard bleeder first, then outboard for each wheel. Is that wrong? Hope not, I bled the brakes today using inboard first.

Thanks Chuck!

"six to one and half a dozen to the other"

Your welcome.

 

[Achilles99]

I wasn't looking forward to redoing the brakes, I trust your opinion over the book's

BTW, the Mityvac 7201 and the 7205 brake bleeding kit makes bleeding brakes a breeze.

 

[DavidSB]

Consider SpeedBleeders. Makes it an easy one-person job with no expensive equipment. I think they cost about $60 for 8 of them. Also, check out the StopTech website for a good how-to article on bleeding.

 

[Achilles99]

We were going to use speedbleeders, but figured since we had two cars the Mityvac would work for less money. Plus, we can use it to change oil too. I must say that the Mityvac was easier to use than speedbleeders (I had them on my Supra). No need to pump, plus it was easy to keep an eye on the fluid (can't do that as a one-person job with the speedbleeders). Mityvac makes it an easy one-person job, the difference being you are at the caliper instead of in the driver's seat.