SRT on BBC Top Gear

[Guibo]

But wait...the Viper isn't exactly built by robots. It's largely handbuilt too. So your Timex analogy sorta *****. If the Murcielago is a Rolex (that is, if some Germans were involved and finally started to make them correctly, shoring up previously glaring inconsistencies in build quality), then the Viper is more like, say, a Hamilton: simpler than the Rolex, but not nearly mundane as any Timex. But I'll grant you your condescending view if it makes you feel that much better.

Follow you around on the internet? LOL! Don't think so highly of yourself. I've been reading that thread on the NSX forums since the C6 episode was first put on the 'net. But thanks for bumping a 2-month old thread, guy. I'll look forward to your brilliant, insightful contributions to this thread 2 months from now. Maybe 2 years instead?

Well of course the 'Vette owners would whine. Why wouldn't they, when even the NSX owners themselves think a C6 would beat an NSX?

No comment on the R&T test between the NSX and 996, I see? Of course not, because that contradicts the TopGear "test." Hehe!

Again, you're making claims about C&D's testing procedures without empirical, hard evidence. Their test of the Z06 in fact tells you that they don't do everything possible, at the expense of the car's mechanicals in order to get the best time. If you're going to keep making claims, have the decency to back them up. Otherwise, what you're saying isn't even worthy of the gutter.
Did the Stig beat up on the C6's shifter and clutch during his laps? As always, he looked rather cool, collected, and relaxed. Quite a bit different from the Hamsterboy, wouldn't you say? The C6 gets that lap time with .6-second granny shifts? You're making the Corvette sound too good to be true! Please, stop!
"I know Car&Driver beats the piss out of tranny's to get those amazing low figures."
No, you don't know that at all.

And look here:
http://autozine.kyul.net/Manufacturer/Japan.htm#Nissan

Nissan was bought out by Renault in 1999. If the VQ is 10 years old, how does that make it French? Please tell me you've taken elementary school arithmetic. You'll also note that their technical and production facilities are strangely missing from, um, France.
Ajay Panchal is the 350Z's designer. You can read more about him (and his British education here (scroll to the bottom):
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_55392/newsarticle.html

Face it, Clarkson is just one motoring scribe whose opinion has no more weight than any other. As shown by the people who count at TopGear, his opinion can be relegated to the dust bin. So try to look at things through your own eyes, and not through your Master's.

I suppose that Aston Martin and the Mazda RX-8 are American cars, that the Viper is in fact German, that Lamborghinis are German? Maybe the Enzo is nothing more than a glorified Fiat?

 

[Autostream]

It is quite well known, industry wide, that C&D on average, always seems to extract the fastest numbers out of their test cars.
They must be doing something different.

The 996 spuns its tires on topgear. A bad launch to say the least considering its lower torque and rear engine is optimal for minimal tire spin- in the same way as the NSX. But it doesnt matter, cuz it would prolly have lost anyway.

As for the gutter. You recall C&D's test figures and presume that top gear is biased. Yet you dont have a response from them-their side of the story. Its all just ambiguous guessing going on here from both sides. So its not like anyone will ever prove anything about this topic so your empirical evidence requests are really moot.

And handbuilt is a two-edged sword. There is handbuilt by skilled craftsmen and there is handbuilt by a guy in his garage. HUGE difference. I've been under an RT/10 and the hand-made feel is evident to say the least. And not in a good way. The hand-welds look like they were made by a recent graduate of apex-tec. I havent seen the new viper, but i hope its better.
I dont want to be condescending. But I am embarrased being american sometimes. only in america would someone build a car to compete with supercars but only in terms of performance. And leave everything else to [******] just to make it cheap. But i guess i just dont subscribe to the bang-for-the-buck theory. This is why I respect the Ford GT (sure they cut some corners,but its to a degree that is more than acceptable) This is similar to topgears attitudes. More often than not, Clarkson will take cost out of the equation when making evaluations. Hence american cars start to lose their allure.

The VQ-series engine in the 350 has only its roots from nissan 10 years ago. It was modernized, tweaked and improved with french money. It was french money that gave us the 350 from soup to nuts. And when you are the one paying, you are the ones making the ultimate decisions. So he was 100% correct, contrary to what you implies.

I suppose that Aston Martin and the Mazda RX-8 are American cars, that the Viper is in fact German, that Lamborghinis are German? Maybe the Enzo is nothing more than a glorified Fiat?

I dont know what you are implying here? foreign and domestic parts, money, and ideas have been combining in everyones cars for years. Thats why all window stickers show a percentage for buyers because you can no longer say this car is 100% anything.
As for me, some are very obvious. the 300c is a german car with an american engine and interior. The crossfire is a german car also with an american body.
The murci is cleary a german car with an italian body. If you closed your eyes while driving it, you'd swear it was some audi supercar, and youd be right. Youd never make that mistake with the diablo. Of course its the best of both worlds. They kept what you loved and got rid of what you hated. Just like the first GS300 was a *** car with an italian body. Its the best of both worlds.
The RX8 looks feels drives and smells like a *** car and thats good enough for me. Ditto with the Aston.
If you get into a new honda, its the same 'look and feel' as theyve always been for the past 20 years. But all those new nissans have a different look and feel about them. And I've never been to france so I cant comment.

 

[Kai SRT10]

if you had $140,000 to spend in the USA what new car could you get, except a compe coupe that would be a better comprassion

Even at $140k, there aren't a lot of cars off the showroom floor (as opposed to modded) that will outperform the Viper SRT-10 on the track or the drag strip. The MSRP on the Ford GT is in the 140k ballpark, but the street price puts it in a different price league right now. Maybe there is a Porsche 911 variant that will fit the bill, but I don't know enough about Porsches to know for sure.

As it stands, I think that the least expensive cars (that you don't have to build yourself) with track and strip performance equalling the Viper may be the Gallardo, 360CS, and Ford GT. You can't pick up any of them for $140k. I think that the least expensive of the trio right now is the Gallardo, which starts at around 160k. In my book, that makes the SRT-10 a screaming bargain.

 

[Guibo]

It is quite well known, industry wide, that C&D on average, always seems to extract the fastest numbers out of their test cars.
They must be doing something different.

Did it occur that maybe (just MAYBE) their drivers are better? Or that maybe (just MAYBE) their track conditions are different? Unlike R&T and MT, C&D rarely ever tests cars out in the high desert of Southern California. But no. These possibilities could never enter your mind: it's all about abuse!

The 996 spuns its tires on topgear. A bad launch to say the least considering its lower torque and rear engine is optimal for minimal tire spin- in the same way as the NSX. But it doesnt matter, cuz it would prolly have lost anyway.

Lost anyway based on what? Would you say that spinning tires and "a bad launch" are the hallmarks of automotive journalims with integrity. You don't suppose it would have killed them to use one professional driver to really show what all of the cars are capable of, do you?

As for the gutter. You recall C&D's test figures and presume that top gear is biased. Yet you dont have a response from them-their side of the story.

Not just C&D. But Motor Trend and Road & Track. The figures from which indicate that, when driven by a professional single driver, the C6 should be comfortably ahead of the NSX in the quarter mile.
And trust me, I don't even half to look at C&D's test figures to see the bias.

But I am embarrased being american sometimes.

Yes, I'm emabarrased that you're an American as well.

only in america would someone build a car to compete with supercars but only in terms of performance.

*cough!* TVR. Marcos. Radical. Ultima. Noble. To some extent, EVO VIII*cough!*

The VQ-series engine in the 350 has only its roots from nissan 10 years ago. It was modernized, tweaked and improved with french money. It was french money that gave us the 350 from soup to nuts.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard you say. (And believe me, that really says something! )
Was it a French engineer who designed the engine? No. Was it the French who tested it for durability, and developed it? No. Was it built in a French factory by Frenchmen? Don't think so. Just because the parent company is French doesn't make the engine French.
The Ford GT's transmission was designed, developed, and built by Ricardo in the UK. Does that make it an American transmission?
GM owns Vauxhall. Does that make this an American car?:

You must be registered for see images

I suppose this car is Malaysian?:

You must be registered for see images attach

As for me, some are very obvious. the 300c is a german car with an american engine and interior. The crossfire is a german car also with an american body.

That's nice. I happen to agree. But I didn't ask you about those cars now, did I? I asked you about the Viper.

The RX8 looks feels drives and smells like a *** car and thats good enough for me. Ditto with the Aston.

But they're owned by an American company. Does that therefore make them American?

 

[GR8_ASP]

As for me, some are very obvious. the 300c is a german car with an american engine and interior. The crossfire is a german car also with an american body.

Say again? What is the planet you hail from? The German part of the 300C is the axle, transmission (in V8 cars) and basic suspension geometry. The rest is American engineering and Canadian manufacturing. The Crossfire is pure German, with most of the engineering and all of the manufacturng in Germany.

 

[Autostream]

Did it occur that maybe (just MAYBE) their drivers are better? Or that maybe (just MAYBE) their track conditions are different? Unlike R&T and MT, C&D rarely ever tests cars out in the high desert of Southern California. But no. These possibilities could never enter your mind: it's all about abuse!

Should I start rating the ridiculousness of your comments now as well? Cuz that one was the best so far. Since C&D correct their figures to standard atmospheric conditions, why would the high desert make any difference?

Lost anyway based on what? Would you say that spinning tires and "a bad launch" are the hallmarks of automotive journalims with integrity.

4 professional drivers or 4 very good equally consistent drivers yield the same exact result in a drag race that isnt timed. And their times would be more realistic of the average buyer as well. But either way, no one is arguing with you why the porsche lost.

only in america would someone build a car to compete with supercars but only in terms of performance.

*cough!* TVR. Marcos. Radical. Ultima. Noble. To some extent, EVO VIII*cough!*

[/QUOTE]

lol, a marcos mantis?-a full out track car? The noble?-a kit car. Ultima? another track car with a metal interior. These are basically barely street legal track cars (rolls cages,no airbags) built by 5 guys in a garage. The viper is actually trying to be normal car that you could(maybe) live with everyday. And chrysler has bucket loads of money and huge resources and dealer networks to sell and service and could def compete with lambo and ferrari across the scale-but, no

Was it a French engineer who designed the engine? No. Was it the French who tested it for durability, and developed it?

But they're owned by an American company. Does that therefore make them American?

lol, there are no rules. But if you think the designers' nationality's dictates the car's nationality, i am gonna laugh again. Because thats what you are implying. Then the 350z is Indian? Or maybe mexican? canadian. Cuz there are parts in there from all over.

Many many cars and even car companies are mutts these days. But Clarkson said the engine came from france. And if you take a look at the 350z engine in its current form, it came out straight of the Renault Vel Satis.

 

[Autostream]

Say again? What is the planet you hail from? The German part of the 300C is the axle, transmission (in V8 cars) and basic suspension geometry. The rest is American engineering and Canadian manufacturing.

Earth. You forgot the frame for one. You know, the backbone of the car- thing that all the parts are bolted to? Thats pure mercedes E430(W210)

 

[Autostream]

BTW, The SRT-10 goes on sale in the UK in november. They are only selling fifteen of them this year. The have to remove everything that has the word viper on it due to copyrights. 50 separate parts have been re-engineered for the Euro market. A company in Europe does this there. HP is rated at 500bhp and the selling price is $140,000

 

[Snakester]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But I am embarrased being american sometimes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I'm embarrased that you're an American as well.

That one made me laugh!


Autostream,

You make a couple good points, and then proceed to follow them up with 4 horrible ones.

I suppose that's why this thread has gone on so long.
You keep throwing these biased myths out as truth.

The Rolex/Timex analogy is a typical one used by people trying to justify the extra expense of European cars.

But the only part that is true about it is that Rolex's do not tell time any better than other watches that cost a fraction as much, and their inflated prices are largely based on status and image, more than anything tangible.
And there are many watches of comparable real-world quality, workmanship, and materials but they cost much less for the sole reason that they aren't Rolexes, not because they are necessarily inferior.

The chief mistake of enthusiasts who fawn over both European and Japanese cars, is that when they look at American performance cars they assume that the engineering choices are made by mistake, rather than design.
Or that the design goal is to be "cheap" rather than providing exceptional value. (Offering good quality at affordable prices).

Choosing a simply designed, big displacement engine would be described by high technology fans as being behind the times, which is actually laughable because it ignores the results of those engineering choices.
Comparable performance, with better reliability, and lower purchase and mantentance costs.
Does smaller displacement and complex engine technology actually provide more power, better race-worthiness, or even better gas mileage? Nope.

It is also a design choice to have good quality materials, rather than having to use the "best" quality materials, because some auto enthusiasts are actually more concerned about how a car performs, compared to how it appears. And are frankly unwilling to spend twice as much for such detail differences.

It's clear that you cannot grasp that car's like the Viper and Corvette are designed exactly for those people who want a car with balanced performance, but not only in a cost-as-no-object product like the super-expensive European marques.

Detractors unfortunately believe that because they see super high technology engineering, costly materials, and ultimate status as their priorities, that every other design is flawed.
As opposed to realizing that others simply have different (yet equally valid) priorities.

And unfortunately even if the SRT-10 Viper somehow beat the Porsche Carrera GT's time around the Top Gear track, Clarkson would make excuses and utter criticisms to try and belittle the car because it's American, and because it lacks the status and technology of the cars that he drools over.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Say again? What is the planet you hail from? The German part of the 300C is the axle, transmission (in V8 cars) and basic suspension geometry. The rest is American engineering and Canadian manufacturing.

Earth. You forgot the frame for one. You know, the backbone of the car- thing that all the parts are bolted to? Thats pure mercedes E430(W210)

Okay there big boy. You got me on this one. Could you please show me a picture of that there frame?

I would say before you take your internet education on to the airwaves you have a look under one for yourself. BTW, just between you and me on this confidential web site some of your viewers may have actually worked on or with the LX engineering team and have a little bit more knowledge than can be gleaned from the internet.

 

[Guibo]

Should I start rating the ridiculousness of your comments now as well? Cuz that one was the best so far. Since C&D correct their figures to standard atmospheric conditions, why would the high desert make any difference?

Ah, but R&T doesn't. Maybe that's why C&D's figures seem so fast? BTW, MT's times are often quicker than C&D's. Next, you'll be accusing them of doing clutchless upshifts...

But either way, no one is arguing with you why the porsche lost.

Wait, why did the Porsche lose? Bad driver? You don't say...
It's pretty clear that Hammond isn't a professional driver. If he were, he wouldn't have smoked the tires off the line so badly and taken so long to shift. If he's so good, why would they need the Stig??
Do you seriously think that other car magazines should adopt this same strategy, of using 4 different drivers for 4 different cars? Has it occurred to you that there's a reason why TopGear's magazine doesn't do things this way? Think about it.

lol, a marcos mantis?-a full out track car?

No, *****. Marcos TSO:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/picture_library/dir_33/car_portal_pic_16816.jpg?9444
Welcome to the 21st century!

The noble?-a kit car.

It's not a kit car. In Europe, it comes fully assembled and comes with a warranty. Trust me, you could not build this kind of car in your garage.

Ultima? another track car with a metal interior.

I don't see how a Ferrari-like interior is going to help in the bang-for-the-buck department. But thanks for confirming that there are companies outside of America that build fast cars on the cheap. Metal interior = less expense!! This would contradict your earlier statement that only American companies do that.

And chrysler has bucket loads of money and huge resources and dealer networks to sell and service and could def compete with lambo and ferrari across the scale-but, no

Aha, now you're getting somewhere. The Viper was never intended to compete with Lambo and Ferrari across the scale. So to expect the Viper to do so is pretty lame. I think Chrylser spent something like 3 times as much on developing the Stow-and-Go Caravan platform as they did on getting the first Viper off the ground.

Because thats what you are implying. Then the 350z is Indian? Or maybe mexican? canadian. Cuz there are parts in there from all over.

But what is the % content of the parts?
What Clarkson failed to see is the the design of the 350Z is largely the result of his own country's educational system. The guy worked for much of his life in England. Not the US. If he's going to **** off the design of the 350Z, he's going to have to admit that some of it is the result of British influence. If Panchal had studied and earned his degree in the US, that'd be something else. But he didn't.

And if you take a look at the 350z engine in its current form, it came out straight of the Renault Vel Satis.

But where did the Vel Satis get its engine? It wasn't a clean-sheet design by the French.
"with 1720kg to pull, Renault seeks help from Nissan's big capacity V6 to power the flagship Vel Satis. This VQ35DE, an all-alloy 3.5-litre V6 with continuous VVT at both intake and exhaust cams and a resonance variable intake, came from Altima and Maxima."
http://autozine.kyul.net/html/Renault3.htm

The Altima and Maxima are not French cars, genius.

 

[Autostream]

[The chief mistake of enthusiasts who fawn over both European and Japanese cars, is that when they look at American performance cars they assume that the engineering choices are made by mistake, rather than design.
Or that the design goal is to be "cheap" rather than providing exceptional value. (Offering good quality at affordable prices).
It is also a design choice to have good quality materials, rather than having to use the "best" quality materials, because some auto enthusiasts are actually more concerned about how a car performs, compared to how it appears.

Thats a point, but an extremely shallow one. I agree, figures on paper are impressive for the price. But you dont drive the paper. As a car, its very expensive. 'Good' materials would be acceptable. But some of them are substandard, like the dash for one. And not just the materials: parts of the design have flaws. Like how the exhaust causes the interior to feel like a toaster oven. The shifter position is awkwardly high and you have to wrestle the tranny for each gear.
On the 2000 I drove, the pedals werent in line with the seat so it gave me cronic back-ache. I drove it for half an hour and when i got out I felt like taking a nap. It was hot, cramped, and the most exhausting car I've ever driven. Its not one to take on long trips. It doesnt like stop-and-go traffic.
On the plus side, it def hauls ass. I hit 170mph no problem but the tires are so wide it drifts all over the place. The upside is that those same tires give it imense grip in the corners. But then it just gets twitchy. I was able to walk the rear out, but its just too easy to get it out further than you want- and when you correct it, its snaps back violently. It feels as though they coulda spent more $$ on chassis tuning. Its not confidence inspiring and I dont recommend getting the ass out under power unless you are a rather skilled driver.
Now jumping into say, a vette after that, is likelike jumping into an S-class . Its comfortable, you always feel in control and confident whereas the viper around a bend feels as if at any moment it'll kill you. The vette's chassis feels as if someone actually spent a little time tweaking it.
You can drive it to work everyday, take it on long trips, drive it comfortably in the blazing sun and still burn 12 second 1/4's all day long and hit 170mph no problem. It works in traffic, it works in the rain, and at the track.
And its half the price!
Its shape is a little boring, the viper def is a better chick magnet.
I hope they fixed some of that stuff for 2003, but I hear it still has the stiff clutch, balky shifter, and convection oven ambiance.
And I agree the viper offers a raucous thrill fun factor that can be extremely entertaining. and you cant get that in anything else. But in terms of a whole packaged value, the viper is just over-priced. Its a great car if you dont want poise or finesse, it just should be around $50k.

And are frankly unwilling to spend twice as much for such detail differences.

This is a really complicated discussion because its like dodge invented their own class of vehicle with the Viper. There isnt another car with an aggressive shape and big power in the same price range. So there really isnt another apple to compare it to. The Ford GT is way more $$, the Vette is less powerful, and the next Zo6 wont have the visual clout and its based on a lesser car.

 

[Autostream]

Ultima? another track car with a metal interior.

I don't see how a Ferrari-like interior is going to help in the bang-for-the-buck department. But thanks for confirming that there are companies outside of America that build fast cars on the cheap. Metal interior = less expense!! This would contradict your earlier statement that only American companies do that.

[/QUOTE]

lol, You are comparing Ultima to a viper? ultima is like a cobra repica car. Its a homemade road legal-track car. chevy engine, porsche transmission. box steel chassis. its a rolling shell. Made by a tiny company. Doesnt have the same epa and dot restrictions. No airbags. Forget no manufacturer (major-implied) would build a car like this, none COULD! Totally different league.

 

[Guibo]

lol, You are comparing Ultima to a viper? ultima is like a cobra repica car. Its a homemade road legal-track car. chevy engine, porsche transmission. box steel chassis. its a rolling shell. Made by a tiny company. Doesnt have the same epa and dot restrictions. No airbags. Forget no manufacturer (major-implied) would build a car like this, none COULD! Totally different league.

No, I'm not comparing an Ultima to a Viper. I'm refuting your claim that no companies outside of America make cars with supercar performance on the cheap. You didn't explicitly mention major manufacturers.

But thanks for confirming that you think Americans made the VX220 Turbo, that the Elise is Malaysian, and that the Germans made the Viper. LOL. But wait...I thought you said that only American companies would someone make a supercar on the cheap. Duhhrrr...nevermind!

 

[Snakester]

One of the points that I always like to make is that Vipers are not designed to be a car for everyone.

Some people are expecting them to be like Porsches, Mercedes, Cadillacs, Jaguars, Corvettes, or Ferraris.
They aren't.
But that's by design, not by mistake.

The design choices made were to have the car appeal to someone like me, and most of the people here who own them.
I yet can easily see how someone else would prefer the interior materials, technology, and practicality of an Audi to a Viper.
And they should never be Viper owners, because (like you), they see the Viper mostly defined by it's shortcomings, and not it's many attributes, and see the car as too expensive, rather than a phenominal value.

You will never own one, and that's a good thing.
Both for you, and for us.

The Viper is frankly not perfect. And I made some simple mods to make my Viper better for me.
High flow cats virtually eliminated the interior heat for only a couple hundred dollars, a nice cat-back exhaust made the car sound much better. I lowered it a bit, did some brake mods, installed a B&M shifter for a more direct feel, and as mentioned before did some interior and other performance upgrades.

But I hardly consider the Viper flawed because there were improvements to be made in the car with aftermarket products. I did the same to my previous Corvette, and would most likely do similar improvements if I bought a Porsche GT2 as well (although they would no doubt cost more).

On the car spectrum between a wholly practical economy (or luxury car) over to a full racecar, the Viper is closer to the side of a racecar. And unless you are willing to pay HUGE amounts of money, you can't have this level of performance AND a comfy daily-driver personality.

All of the honest reviews of more extreme cars like the Enzo and Porsche CGT admit that the ride is NOT particularly comfortable for long distance cruising, and the handling is edgy at the limit and requires driving skill to master. But that the performance rewards are well worth the effort.

Because of your personal priorities, you will most likely never choose to make those "compromises" of performance over cosmetics, status, and comfort.
And in justification of your choice, either give comparative examples of cars that don't offer nearly the performance, or ones that cost thousands upon thousands more to buy.

 

[Kai SRT10]

Thats a point, but an extremely shallow one. I agree, figures on paper are impressive for the price. But you dont drive the paper.

Its true, I don't drive the paper. I drive a real SRT-10, and I drive it almost every day.

As a car, its very expensive. 'Good' materials would be acceptable. But some of them are substandard, like the dash for one. And not just the materials: parts of the design have flaws. Like how the exhaust causes the interior to feel like a toaster oven.

I like the dash. It's simple and functional, and the gauges are very well laid out.
I read an interview with the chief engineer/designer on the Viper SRT-10 project. He was asked if there was a part of the car that he was unhappy with. He said cabin heat was an issue that needed to be addressed. Fortunately for us owners, fiddling with the exhaust system eliminates this problem. I got rid of the exhaust crossover and installed high flow cats. Cabin and side sill heat issues are all resolved. As the folks at Dodge are aware of the problem, I hope that it is being addressed. I do know that 2004 SRT-10s have more and thicker cabin insulation than early 2003 models.

The shifter position is awkwardly high and you have to wrestle the tranny for each gear.

I'm not sure if you are talking about the SRT-10 or previous Vipers here. I prefer a lower pistol grip shifter to the oem knob, and installed an aftermarket shift knob, but the shift feel is quite good, and I wouldn't agree with you on having to "wrestle" with the tranny.

On the 2000 I drove, the pedals werent in line with the seat so it gave me cronic back-ache. I drove it for half an hour and when i got out I felt like taking a nap. It was hot, cramped, and the most exhausting car I've ever driven. Its not one to take on long trips. It doesnt like stop-and-go traffic.
On the plus side, it def hauls ass. I hit 170mph no problem but the tires are so wide it drifts all over the place. The upside is that those same tires give it imense grip in the corners. But then it just gets twitchy. I was able to walk the rear out, but its just too easy to get it out further than you want- and when you correct it, its snaps back violently. It feels as though they coulda spent more $$ on chassis tuning. Its not confidence inspiring and I dont recommend getting the ass out under power unless you are a rather skilled driver.

This is the SRT-10 forum, and we are discussing the SRT-10 here. The driving position and suspension on the SRT-10 are very different than on previous Vipers. They handle very differently. The wide tires and stiff suspension do make the SRT-10 prone to grabbing on troughs in the road, but the other observations you have from your drive of a GTS really aren't applicable here. The SRT-10 is very controlable at the track. Maybe not as easy as a car with traction control, but it doesn't twitch or snap as you have described. I've driven it at the edge lots of times, and haven't spun it yet. You get quite good feel and warning before the car is going to go around on you. The SRT-10 is actually quite nice to drive on long trips. I wouldn't characterize it as cramped or exhausting. I've taken mine on long trips, and it was fine.

Now jumping into say, a vette after that, is likelike jumping into an S-class . Its comfortable, you always feel in control and confident whereas the viper around a bend feels as if at any moment it'll kill you. The vette's chassis feels as if someone actually spent a little time tweaking it.
You can drive it to work everyday, take it on long trips, drive it comfortably in the blazing sun and still burn 12 second 1/4's all day long and hit 170mph no problem. It works in traffic, it works in the rain, and at the track.
And its half the price! Its shape is a little boring, the viper def is a better chick magnet.

If comfort is your priority, then the Vett is a better car for you. It simply doesn't have the Viper's performance, however, on the drag strip or a road course.

I hope they fixed some of that stuff for 2003, but I hear it still has the stiff clutch, balky shifter, and convection oven ambiance.

As I pointed out above, they changed a lot of things with the 2003 model, including most of the stuff that you complained about (but not the cabin heat.)

And I agree the viper offers a raucous thrill fun factor that can be extremely entertaining. and you cant get that in anything else. But in terms of a whole packaged value, the viper is just over-priced. Its a great car if you dont want poise or finesse, it just should be around $50k.

I have to disagree with you. Show me any factory built showroom car with racing performance of the Viper for under $120,000. I don't think you will find any. If your priorities are performance, the Viper is a screaming bargain. At the track, I regularly trounce Ferraris and other cars that cost much more than my Viper. Does a 360 Modena have nicer creature comforts than my Viper? Certainly. Do his hand stitched leather door panels provide some consolation for a 360 Modena driver when I blow by him on the track? I wouldn't know. I do know that many people are skipping the creature comforts of the standard 360 Modena to buy a 360 Challenge Stradale, which is louder and arguably less comfortable than a SRT-10 Viper (and costs even more than the standard 360.) Why would they do this? Because some drivers favor performance above comfort, and maybe they are tired of being shown up at the track by simple, brutal cars that cost half as much.

This is a really complicated discussion because its like dodge invented their own class of vehicle with the Viper. There isnt another car with an aggressive shape and big power in the same price range. So there really isnt another apple to compare it to. The Ford GT is way more $$, the Vette is less powerful, and the next Zo6 wont have the visual clout and its based on a lesser car.

I can say that we are in agreement here. I just don't see any other car in the Viper's class. It's a unique car. While it has broad general appeal, it will never appeal specifically to the market segment of people who can afford to buy one. Most people who want a Viper can't afford one. Most people who can afford a Viper want a more comfortable car. I'm just grateful to the folks at Dodge that they are crazy enough to build a car specifically for a very tiny bunch of enthusiasts who will buy their unique offering (and then drive the hell out of their new toys.)

Autostream, I guess I'm a little confused as to the point(s) you are trying to make. If you are trying to convince people that the Viper is not as well-appointed as other cars, I think that most folks would agree with you. If you are trying to tell us that the Viper isn't perfect, I think that most folks would agree with you. (Many Viper owners tweak and modify their cars to try and perfect them.) If you are trying to convince us that the Viper is overpriced and should cost the same as a Corvette, then I just think that you are wrong about this. Performance costs more than cosmetics, and the Viper's perfomance is unequaled by anything in its price range. If you are trying to convince us that we should all base our perceptions of our Vipers and other cars on Jeremy Clarkson's opinions . . . well, I think that most of us owners probably have formed our own opinions about our cars that are unlikely to be swayed too much by Clarkson's tv show.

 

[Autostream]

You didn't explicitly mention major manufacturers.

I thought it was implied since our convo was about daimlerchrysler, GM, Renault, Honda, etc, and not 6 guys in a shed.

Duhhrrr...nevermind!

lol, you get so mad. This is just a stupid thread of dichotomous opinion's
As far as the country of origin's opinions, you have been obviously reluctant with yours. Care to share?

 

[allanlambo]

Wow, cant believe this is still going on. As for the Murcielago being a german car with an Italian body, that is completely off track. The Murcielago is completely italian inside. Chassis and engine are spinoffs of the Diablo. Engine is same unit going back to the ealy 60's. The Murcielago is THE italian Lambo. Now the Gallardo on the other hand, has strong german ties. Both great cars inmo.

 

[onerareviper]

Let's see here....

1.) You drive a Viper (that you don't own) for the first time and hit 170+ MPH. Under 30 minutes experience behind the wheel. Hmmm... I have some good friends that aren't bad drivers, but I would not feel comfortable letting them run the Viper to 170 MPH there first time driving. Not only that, but after 6 1/2 pages of the longest thread ever, you finally state you actually drove a Viper giving some credibility to your opinions. Hmmm... If I had strong opinions about a car, and posted on someones website, I would acknowledge my test-drive within the first couple post. Not 10 days later.

2.) Within that 30 minutes of this test drive, every opinion you have basically matches up (exactly) with the negative magazine reviews I've read.

3.) Your opinion of the other exotic cars you drove also matches up with several magazine reviews... Of course, only the positive ones....

I'm calling troll on this one.... 100% grade A 'f'ing troll. 16-20 years of age. Owns a 1992 Honda CRX.

Anyone else ponder a guess?

 

[GR8_ASP]

Onerareviper you may be on to something. I did not catch that the first time. But how many people have been given the keys to a Viper and allowed to take it to 170, find out the max handling, etc? I say no owner.

Now the only way you can convince me is to name the owner and provide concurrence. Otherwise it is just what onerare said - another troll with an overabundance of internet knowledge and no real experience.

 

[onerareviper]

On the plus side, it def hauls ass. I hit 170mph no problem but the tires are so wide it drifts all over the place. The upside is that those same tires give it imense grip in the corners. But then it just gets twitchy. I was able to walk the rear out, but its just too easy to get it out further than you want- and when you correct it, its snaps back violently. It feels as though they coulda spent more $$ on chassis tuning. Its not confidence inspiring and I dont recommend getting the ass out under power unless you are a rather skilled driver.

It's even a funnier read the second time around.... Walk the Viper rear.... Twitchy at it's limit This guy is freak'in hysterical... If you insert 'On Playstation' in certain areas of this post, it becomes believable. Even professional drivers acknowledge the mega-hours of driving time needed to discover the limits of the Viper. But of course our friend was able to discover the Viper weaknesses & limits within a 30 minute drive. After this 30 minutes, he now has the knowledge to comment on 'chassis tuning'. Maybe we should give this guy a direct line to PVO. I'm sure they could've used him when I saw them tuning the Viper's chassis at Mid-Ohio with 18 ba-zillion sensors and on-board computers hooked to ever part of the snake. Anyone have there number?

 

[Neil - UK]

6 of us are going down to the track on wed 3rd nov to watch the filming of the SRT programme and be in the audience, the SRT will be on Top Gear (8pm BBC2) sun 7th nov

 

[Kai SRT10]

6 of us are going down to the track on wed 3rd nov to watch the filming of the SRT programme and be in the audience, the SRT will be on Top Gear (8pm BBC2) sun 7th nov

I'm envious. Wish I could be there to watch. See if you can find out if the Stig really listens to music while he drives. I'd also love to hear your impressions of his hot laps in the SRT-10.

Hopefully Sleepy Fish will get the episode up soon after it airs in the UK.

Kai

 

[Neil - UK]

hopefully the stig will drive while we are there, it may of already been filmed,
who knows, at least we can be in the crowd giving some viper cheers when the chat about the cars.

 

[Autostream]

Autostream, I guess I'm a little confused as to the point(s) you are trying to make. If you are trying to convince people that the Viper is not as well-appointed as other cars, I think that most folks would agree with you. If you are trying to tell us that the Viper isn't perfect, I think that most folks would agree with you.

Let me put it to you another way. You say the Viper is kinda like a stripped-out, hunkered down, racer- kinda like the 360CS and GT3RS. And I agree. It def serves a purpose for people who just want performance and maybe even a track car that they can drive to the track and dont care about hand-stitched leather and such.
But then where is the normal version? The one that gives you some creature comforts- maybe navigation, a trac computer, a less harsh ride, and costs less? Something to make it more of a daily driver and less like a track car which you say is the case.

 

[Autostream]

Wow, cant believe this is still going on. As for the Murcielago being a german car with an Italian body, that is completely off track. The Murcielago is completely italian inside. Chassis and engine are spinoffs of the Diablo. Engine is same unit going back to the ealy 60's. The Murcielago is THE italian Lambo. Now the Gallardo on the other hand, has strong german ties. Both great cars inmo.

OH its def still italian architecture right now. But it was the germans that gave it the lighter clutch, steering and tranny. A/c that really works. More room. And a less tame body. They made it just all around easier to live with. If you wanna argue that the first time in lambo's history, they start to make cars actually civilized is just coincidentally the same exact time audi got its wallet and its german influences in there, go ahead. But i'm not one for coincidences.
And personally I think its great, they got rid of what you hated and kept what you loved. Awesome!

 

[Kai SRT10]

Autostream, I guess I'm a little confused as to the point(s) you are trying to make. If you are trying to convince people that the Viper is not as well-appointed as other cars, I think that most folks would agree with you. If you are trying to tell us that the Viper isn't perfect, I think that most folks would agree with you.

Let me put it to you another way. You say the Viper is kinda like a stripped-out, hunkered down, racer- kinda like the 360CS and GT3RS. And I agree. It def serves a purpose for people who just want performance and maybe even a track car that they can drive to the track and dont care about hand-stitched leather and such.
But then where is the normal version? The one that gives you some creature comforts- maybe navigation, a trac computer, a less harsh ride, and costs less? Something to make it more of a daily driver and less like a track car which you say is the case.

I don't want a "normal" version. The day that Dodge announces that they are going to make a "normal" Viper, they will get a strongly worded letter from me (and probably most of the other Viper owners) telling them to please stop. People see a Viper, they know exactly what it is. You don't have to squint hard and look for the special badging to tell if it is a "real" Viper or a "normal" Viper. If you buy a Viper, you buy it for the performance, not comfort. There's a reason I get along well with just about every Viper owner I meet. We tend to share a common enthusiasm for driving. We don't care about heated seats and sat-nav systems.

If what you want is a Viper with training wheels and creature comforts, then go buy a Corvette or a Boxter. It sounds to me that a Viper just doesn't fit your personal tastes. I hope Dodge never makes a Viper that you like.

 

[radta7]

Autostream,

You're a tool. Guibo has made you look very foolish several times over.


Everyone else,

What did the SRT run on the show?

 

[allanlambo]

Wow, cant believe this is still going on. As for the Murcielago being a german car with an Italian body, that is completely off track. The Murcielago is completely italian inside. Chassis and engine are spinoffs of the Diablo. Engine is same unit going back to the ealy 60's. The Murcielago is THE italian Lambo. Now the Gallardo on the other hand, has strong german ties. Both great cars inmo.

OH its def still italian architecture right now. But it was the germans that gave it the lighter clutch, steering and tranny. A/c that really works. More room. And a less tame body. They made it just all around easier to live with. If you wanna argue that the first time in lambo's history, they start to make cars actually civilized is just coincidentally the same exact time audi got its wallet and its german influences in there, go ahead. But i'm not one for coincidences.
And personally I think its great, they got rid of what you hated and kept what you loved. Awesome!

My Diablo has a light clutch, power steering, Abs, great reliability, and ice cold a/c. Long before Audi.

 

[Autostream]

Now the only way you can convince me is to name the owner and provide concurrence. Otherwise it is just what onerare said - another troll with an overabundance of internet knowledge and no real experience.

Well you must've noticed something was a bit odd when someone comes to the Vipers home turf to play ball agaisnt it. I felt compelled to explain some of the myths of Top Gear and not because I have nothing better to do than to play devil's advocate with googled facts.
I am 28years old and have driven quite a few cars. Whether they are from clients, friends, rentals, or manufacturer's demonstrators, I drive them the way they are meant to be driven and never notice how many cupholders they have.
I just started taking pics of me in them recently with my camera phone. Here are some samples. Sorry I dont have an of a viper.

Heres me in the new VW Phaeton

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Me in a new LS430 doing 120mph. I normally drive with 2 hands on the wheel but i had to take the damn picture. Thats as fast as I wanted to go in the rain

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ME in a new BMW X5

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ME in a new sunfire trying to catch a Focus around our little track (notice the body roll,lol)

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download this DVD teaser from LIEXTREME:
http://www.liextreme.com/videos/liextremetrailer.wmv
Its me in the E55 and Green 911 going sideways. So when I say power on oversteer is a scary thing in the viper, I have a good enough frame of reference. Though I havent driven the SRT-10 yet, they are quite hard to come by. But hopefully soon enough.

As a sort of hobby of mine, I am working on a car video with some amazing spectacules. Hence the pics. I wasnt driving it, but I recorded this DLM Viper pull a 9.82@150mph at E-town with no roll cage or 5-points! - with 2 cameras rolling as well.

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p.s. the last 100 feet or so he said he was on the brakes which would explain the timing discrepancy. I tried to capture the frame as it passed the final timing lights. G-meter was not functional.