Standard Insurance for HPDE

[Barrels]

I am attending Chin's HPDE event at Road Atlanta Monday. I have been to other tracks (VIR, CMP, Roebling) but have never been to one with quite so much concrete. That got me a little worried about what would happen if my Viper had an intimate encounter with said concrete.

I have searched the forums and internet thoroughly before this post. The consensus is that some policies may still cover you on track, but few do anymore. The "exclusions" section of your insurance policy contains the info related to this coverage. My USAA auto policy excludes coverage for damages "sustained while a participant in, or in practice for, any driving contest or challenge". It is also stated elsewhere in the exclusions as excluding "loss to any vehicle while it is being operated in, or in practice for, any speed contest."

I know HPDE is not a race, contest, or challenge. I am not there to race or get ready for a race. I will not be timed. I am there to learn how to control my car at speed. I found a post in an old thread where a lawyer advised that you make sure to sign in as a "student" wherever you sign on any forms they give. He said it helps to establish your mindset when entering the HPDE event. Are there any other tips or suggestions that may help me make sure I stay on the right side of this line?

 

[ViperTony]

Contact Steve Katz, ACR Steve, his family is in the insurance business and offers track day insurance including HPDE. I use it every time I go to the track. Very reasonable cost. OnTrackInsurance Dot Com. If the event is not listed on the site, contact him and most likely he'll add it to the list. He's a trusted NY/CT member and our race director. Most standard insurance, especially USAA, will not cover your Viper on the track. In fact, don't even call and ask USAA about it as they'll probably cancel your Viper policy over the question.

Anything can happen on the track including HPDE sessions. Sometimes they are things outside of your control though it happens far and few between. The question is: Is it worth perhaps an extra $300 to fully insure replacing your Viper should it be totaled on the track? For me the answer is yes. Peace of mind.

 

[AZTVR]

The words that you quote above do not seem to apply for HPDE. The words that I have seen that appear to be there for including HPDE are an exclusion for accidents for a vehicle being operated "on a track designed primarily for racing or high speed driving."

I definitely agree that tracks with many concrete walls would make me feel at high risk. Here is an option: http://www.ontrackinsurance.com/index.aspx If it is an occasional event, then the cost of the insurance is probably worth the peace of mind.


edit: ViperTony beat me to the same answer. LOL!

 

[ViperTony]

edit: ViperTony beat me to the same answer. LOL!

LOL, Sorry...I'll give you a 5 minute head start next time.

 

[Barrels]

I'm not interested in on-track insurance. I looked into it and it was around $300. I would spend it if I needed to, but I am pretty confident that there is no language in my policy that would exclude coverage for HPDE.

 

[viper_itch]

I called USAA last year when I was considering a local event. I describe the event and was told I would be covered. In my case I would have an instructor in the car.

They didn't cancel me either.

 

[MTGTS]

Lots of insurance companies changed the language in their policies to say "racing surface". If you on a track you are on a racing surface no matter if it's a school, HPDE, or actually racing. You will need to call or read your policy and see what yours says.

If you have any questions Steve is the guy to ask as it's what he does for a living. I use him for my events.

 

[ViperTony]

I'm not interested in on-track insurance. I looked into it and it was around $300. I would spend it if I needed to, but I am pretty confident that there is no language in my policy that would exclude coverage for HPDE.

I would get this confirmed in writing by your insurance provider, especially with USAA, which they won't do. I have USAA so I speak from experience. I was told by a USAA rep on the phone that's it's no problem, it's covered, etc. When I asked for written confirmation from them on this, they refused. Don't assume especially with USAA.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Barrels, while I fully support driver's ed for Viper drivers...and, I understand that you have done this many times in the past...your presumption of coverage is somewhat worrisome (in my opinion) for both you and as a precedural example to newbies.

You stated: "but I am pretty confident that there is no language in my policy that would exclude coverage for HPDE"

As I (and many others) have posted in the past, I would respectfully suggest that YOU get clarification in WRITING from your insurer's home office, and not per a telephone call and not just from your local agent.

There is no place for assumptions in this arena...in spite of all of the assurances that I have witnessed event promoters and club orgainzers giving to individual participants. This is an area for "INFORMED CONSENT", so to speak.

The courts await folks making assumptions and poorly informed decisions !!

A little history...and, things have certainly worsened since this series of posts:
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...d-Some-Club-Help-!?highlight=court+of+appeals

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...alks-on-assistance?highlight=court+of+appeals

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...uses-to-Reconsider?highlight=court+of+appeals

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...-OF-APPEALS-RULING?highlight=court+of+appeals

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...d-kills-2-people?highlight=porsche+carrera+GT

AND FINALLY, a sad reminder of just how far these cases can go:
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/24/4-5-million-awarded-in-porsche-carrera-gt-case/

Make no mistake...I AM FOR driver's education at well manages sites by credible organizations for INFORMED and PREPARED drivers !!

 

[NI-KA]

Speaking from experience (while an instructor was in the car)..... the 10% deductible of the coverage/insured amount is easily used up when talking about vipers.

You would be wise to get it unless you can afford to pay for all the damage yourself up to and including totalling the car.

 

[Barrels]

I appreciate some of the discussion, but it seems like most people didn't read my op and are just rehashing what is in all the other threads. I did read my full policy. I know what it says and am not assuming anything. I even directly quoted the closest-to-applicable exclusions in my op. I just want some advice on ideas to make sure I stay within the bounds of my policy. Ideas like the example in my op.

 

[AZTVR]

I just want some advice on ideas to make sure I stay within the bounds of my policy. Ideas like the example in my op.

With that in mind, I would suggest that you not rent/use a transponder or other device that tracks your time. I have no idea if an insurance company could use that against you; but, I wouldn't be surprised. It sounds like you are trying to take the most conservative route here. The times are not used as part of a contest; but, it might give them something to argue about.

 

[Steve-Indy]

As demonstrated "above and beyond" in the last link that I posted above...LIABILITY can be a much greater concern than merely absorbing the costs to repair/scrap one's own Viper.

 

[Barrels]

With that in mind, I would suggest that you not rent/use a transponder or other device that tracks your time. I have no idea if an insurance company could use that against you; but, I wouldn't be surprised. It sounds like you are trying to take the most conservative route here. The times are not used as part of a contest; but, it might give them something to argue about.

Thanks man. That is a good point and exactly what I am looking for.

 

[MTGTS]

I appreciate some of the discussion, but it seems like most people didn't read my op and are just rehashing what is in all the other threads. I did read my full policy. I know what it says and am not assuming anything. I even directly quoted the closest-to-applicable exclusions in my op. I just want some advice on ideas to make sure I stay within the bounds of my policy. Ideas like the example in my op.

What is the date on the policy that you are reading?

 

[Barrels]

What is the date on the policy that you are reading?

Current. There is a new one starting June 15, but I read through it and the language doesn't change.

 

[AZTVR]

Not quite related to the OP question; but, another thing some people do is to remove or tape over their license plate to prevent snoopy insurance companies from using track photographers's photos for undesirable purposes.

 

[shine]

I've been in a similar boat and took out separate track insurance (to the tune of $700) just for the day. I'd called my insurance company, State Farm, and was definitively told "NO" when asked if it was covered.

In your case, since it seems you have some leeway, I'd go as far as possible beforehand with getting documentation as to the HPDE and its fine print, their liability, and the purpose of the day. You may need to do some screen-grabs or save PDFs off their web site to make sure you've documented exactly what the event entails, meaning the emphasis on safety, fun, and learning, and not competitiveness. Definitely have copies of anything you sign either online or in person, and even perhaps get a copy of the track waiver when you enter the premises. You may also want to document throughout the day any instructors or event organizers you speak with or ride with, what was discussed, and how it helped you become a better driver. Might also want to film the driver's meeting at the start, if you have permission from the organizers. Document, document, document!

Basically, it's going to be a pain in the ass, but if you go into it with the mentality that you're going to have to prove that you were coverable during that time (and not assuming anything), then you may be OK if anything happens.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

I have USAA, and have assisted some folks in the past who had accidents during track events. I would highly suggest that you get written confirmation from the company, but I am pretty sure they would not cover you if you had an accident at Road Atlanta. The key word seems to be speed, and contest or challenge can be ignored. Play it safe and get it in writing or review getting coverage that Steve Katz can provide.