Stroked vs Bored

DLTARNU

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Apologies for the novice question, but...

Can a Viper engine be stroked so the displacement is over 500ci? I know the Gen III is 505 and Gen I/II's have been modified to over 500 cubes, but I don't know if they have been bored or stroked or both.

If you increase displacement by stroking the engine, can you still use the same cylinders and only change the crank and rods?

Thanks in advance for any info.
 

joe117

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I believe that you could use the same rods. The new piston would have the wrist pin moved up.
 
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DLTARNU

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I know both can be done, but I don't want to do anything irreversible to the engine block, which boring would do.

510 strokers seem to be a popular package, with Heffner, RSI and Hennassy offering them. I'm just curious as to what this entails in terms of parts replaced and/or parts modified to achieve 510ci.

I want the option of being able to return the car to stock if at some point in time I lose my mind and decide to sell it :D
 

Joseph Dell

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1st things first... I bought my 99 RT new in Oct of 99... DLM had it before the end of 2000... and I haven't had the urge to sell it. except this one time, at band camp, when i exactly the same care as a black GTS w/ stripes...

But if you decide you want to sell the car, i highly doubt that you'd want to go through the effort to pull the pistons and replace them with stock ones.

On the other hand, you are correct that stroking is a part replacement whereas boring modifys the block.

Stroking isn't much more than changing pistons and rods, and often the cam and since you are there, you'd do lifters. and you'd definitely want to do the heads since you have to take them off to get to the pistons.

All that aside, there are some that have argued that stroking a motor reduces the life span of that motor b/c of some reasons that i can't remember... and if you stroke it a lot, you increase the rod length and something something something something. can you tell i don't have a stroker? But i read about them once here...

check out:

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=359663&Forum=UBB14&Words=stroker&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=250&Old=allposts&Main=359638&Search=true#Post359663

and some info in this one:

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=327349&Forum=UBB14&Words=stroker&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=1&Limit=250&Old=allposts&Main=327283&Search=true#Post327349

hope this helps!

JD
 

CHAD

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510's are achieved by offset grinding the stock crank and replacing the rods and pistons.

JD is right, you would not want to go through the trouble of replacing these parts if you decided to sell. And you won't get hardly any more for the car with them. Like most mods, this is purely for the benefit of the owner.
 
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DLTARNU

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Oh I didn't mean returning to stock in the near future. For the time being I just want to have fun with the car. I mean way, WAYYYYY down the road - 20 years or more, should a stock Viper become a collectible, I'd like to have the ability to return it to stock.

Kinda hard to unbore an engine block :laugh:
 

STUGOTS

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know of anyone who sells a Stroker kit??

That can be my winter project for Chuck.
 
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DLTARNU

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JD,

Thanks for the links! Highly informative. Any estimations on RWHP/TQ gain from doing a 510 stroker? I'm guessing, with my novice mechanical conjecturing ability, that the gain will be largely influenced by the cam used.
 

Joseph Dell

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I can honestly tell you that I haven't got a clue as to what the RWHP/TQ gains would be. Fortuantely for you, you have the master of these technologies working on your car right now. DLM has done many motors including strokers, so he can probably give you a better estimate than I can.

A stroker motor w/ ported heads (like the hemmingway setup [soulds like hemengway, anwyay] produced ~600 at the tires...

JD
 

jp

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To bore the Viper liners is not an option, there is not enough material in the walls to do that.
 

LTHL VPR

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I had a 550 cubic inch motor on my Viper. The challenge is that it is expensive to 'do it right', and, as a result, it is not uncommon for corners to be cut. We spent almost a year working with a number of companies to come up with the right mix of parts; reworking all the internals and strengthening the block and adding goodies like cam bearings, billet caps, etc. and then spent several other months testing cam, header, and head combinations to make max power and torque in a safe and usable range (2500-5500rpms).

I still find it interesting that everyone is so quick to purchase heads that 'flow the most', or cams that give the car a 'loppy idle' (paying top dollar for these mods), and yet still don't see significant gains over a stock car under 3500 rpms.

Here are some of the numbers we achieved:
2500 rpms 315 rwhp/605 rwtq
3000 rpms 361 rwhp/631 rwtq
3500 rpms 455 rwhp/683 rwtq
4000 rpms 536 rwhp/704 rwtq
4500 rpms 598 rwhp/698 rwtq
5000 rpms 635 rwhp/658 rwtq
5500 rpms 660 rwhp/630 rwtq

Good luck!
 

Fishtail

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I would have DLM build you a blower motor. You'll have the cubes of a stocker but an engine that thinks it's a 600 cubic inch big block. The days of Viper stroker engines are becoming more scarce. We all want the power but not the open exhaust and expense you need with stroker motors. Dollar for dollar, a small blower motor will far exceed the power gains of a stroker engine with lots of work.
I remember Doug telling me about the pros and cons verses the two but I can't remember all of them off the top of my head.
Maybe he can chime in??

-Lou
 

LTHL VPR

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We used cats and passed smog with my 750hp Viper. You do need a very high flowing exhaust (we did a custom header for this level of flow), but certainly attainable with not only cats, but passing stringent emission tests. Without cats or a concern over emissions, then 800hp is attainable.
 

Go Fast For Life

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Actually you can bore the stock liners. Mine are bored +.030. Combine that with a 4.25" billet crank and 6.125" rods yields an ever so enjoyable 542ci.

I don't know of anyone who makes a kit but I can give you all the specs you need.

One of the nice features of building a stroker motor is that you always have the option of adding boost later. With my engine, I used dished pistons to keep the CR at a healthy 9.8:1. A little higher than stock but plenty safe to run 10lbs of intercooled boost.
 

joe117

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Increasing the stroke of any engine will, of course, increase displacement.
This increase in displacement will also increase compression ratio unless the pistons are dished. So, using stock pistons with shorter rods might leave you with more compression than you want for a street engine running on pump gasoline.

Stock rods with new pistons would seem like the cheapest way to go.
Keeping the stock, longer rods will also give you a better angle for the piston to act against the crank.

I don't really know what is available and why certain decisions would be made in stroking a street Viper engine.
I'm just talking engines in general. There may be good reason why the Viper V10 can't be stroked with only an offset ground crank, new pistons and the stock rods.

The other advantage that comes from increasing the displacement by stroking vs. bore increase, is the longer crank throw gives slightly more leverage to turn the crank. This will give more torque aside from that gained by the displacement increase alone.

I'm not sure why anyone would need to beef up the valve train if a stroke increase were the only mod.
You might want to do it just because you are already inside the engine.

The fact that an engine had increased stroke would be very hard for anyone to detect. For this reason, I'd say that the worry of how to return the engine to "bone stock" is not something I would consider very important.
Twenty years from now, a stroked engine wouldn't be something that anyone would be able to detect without opening up the engine and making a reasonably careful measurement.

Even with the heads off, you can't just look at the engine and say, "stroker".
 

STUGOTS

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Go Fast For Life

With your bore and stroke that you have done what kind of HP/TQ gains did you see?

Also I am very interested in the "package" so if you have a minute can you PM me a list of specs and parts to have 542ci.

Thanks

BTW I know hennnessey sells a 510 ci package for a little over 7k.
 

GTS Bruce

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Simple explanation.Longer stroke better for torque but piston speed increased and rpm lowered or limited.Bigger bore good for higher RPM.Both increase power and torque but in different rpm ranges.Both can have forced induction.Both can be combined and have forced induction.Build your hand grenade any way you like it and pull the pin. Bruce
 

Go Fast For Life

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GTS Bruce,

Here I have do disagree with you. 510 stroker kits have offset ground "stock" cranks. Which MAY be a danger because you can grind through the heat treatment of the crank. And in this case yes, IMHO weakens the crank.

But, the best strokers use a billet crank which is many times stronger than the stock crank. In the case of the 542, the stroke is increased from 3.88" to 4.25" or about .185" larger crank radius. This is not a significant stroke increase when compared with BBC engines which often add between .500" and .750" increase in stroke.

Most strokers use longer billet rods which again are many times stronger than the forged stock ones and the increased length of the rod helps maintain the rod/stroke ratio.

And finally, strokers almost always use forged pistons, either flat or dished, depending on desired CR.

In many cases, a well built stroker, built with billet components is stronger and more reliable than the stock engine and can easily be reved to the same RPM as a non-stroked engine.

If however, you choose to try the budget route, using stock components and only new pistons, your engine will not be as reliable as stock. IMHO.

In my engine, I have...

Henry Velasco billet crank 4.25" stroke ...$4500
Oliver billet rods 6.125" length ...$1500
JE pistons...$800

STUGOTS Most of the 542s make anywhere between 550 and 650 rwhp depending on CR, head flow characteristics, cam, etc. I hope this helps. PM me if you need more details on the engine.
 

jp

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A stroker is easy to detect, you just measure the volume of the cylinder stroke.
Can be done with the heads still on the engine.

Increasing the stroke of any engine will, of course, increase displacement.
This increase in displacement will also increase compression ratio unless the pistons are dished. So, using stock pistons with shorter rods might leave you with more compression than you want for a street engine running on pump gasoline.

Stock rods with new pistons would seem like the cheapest way to go.
Keeping the stock, longer rods will also give you a better angle for the piston to act against the crank.

I don't really know what is available and why certain decisions would be made in stroking a street Viper engine.
I'm just talking engines in general. There may be good reason why the Viper V10 can't be stroked with only an offset ground crank, new pistons and the stock rods.

The other advantage that comes from increasing the displacement by stroking vs. bore increase, is the longer crank throw gives slightly more leverage to turn the crank. This will give more torque aside from that gained by the displacement increase alone.

I'm not sure why anyone would need to beef up the valve train if a stroke increase were the only mod.
You might want to do it just because you are already inside the engine.

The fact that an engine had increased stroke would be very hard for anyone to detect. For this reason, I'd say that the worry of how to return the engine to "bone stock" is not something I would consider very important.
Twenty years from now, a stroked engine wouldn't be something that anyone would be able to detect without opening up the engine and making a reasonably careful measurement.

Even with the heads off, you can't just look at the engine and say, "stroker".
 

ruckdr

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joe117, THIS FOR YOUR INFORMATION.

jp said: "A stroker is easy to detect, you just measure the volume of the cylinder stroke.
Can be done with the heads still on the engine."
This is correct.
Just for your information, NHRA has been " CCing" (measuring the displacement) engines for years. During the 1970's when I was drag racing 'professionally' (NHRA Modified Eliminator), we had our engine CCed many times. :mad: :mad: The process involves screwing an insert into a spark plug hole, this is connected to a calibrated tube which is about 3" in diameter, and maybe 20-24 inches long (it's been a while). The engine is turned over, and a solid disk inside the tube is forced up the tube as the air is displaced from the engine cylinder to the calibrated cylinder.
Later,
 

Torquemonster

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If a certain capacity is desired - a big bore is the best way to get it if you want an engine you can lean on hard all day. Despite all the theories out there, reality is the big bore engine will make more power than the long stroke engine of the same size and have increased rpm capability without dropping off power like the stroker ultimately will as pumping losses, piston speed and friction take over. The big bore engine will also make similar torque.

Now that will confuse a lot of people and goes against what the magazines print - sorry about that.

The reason people go for the big strokes is simple - it allows you to make the engine even bigger when the bore size is at its largest safe size.

The mountain motors use huge strokes to get huge engine sizes - and while the math ***** - they make enormous power due to their sheer size and the strength on the parts used to hold it all together.

Would you see a mountain motor last in a 24 hour endurance event - NO FRIGGEN WAY!!!

Can a big stroker last on the street?

YES. Because they seldom see the redline, and when they do - it is for a short moment in time.

If you want to see the inside of a Viper block - build a 550 engine, rpm it to 7000rpm and sit on that over the Silverstate Classic 90 mile race. Chances are you'll have a see through engine not too far from the start line.

But if you keep it under 6000rpm and drive it like most Vipers get driven, and shift at 5500-5800rpm - a well built stroker should last for years and be very reliable in its reduced lifespan. It can't last as long as the stock engine does because the side loadings will wear the bores faster - but we are splitting hairs because the stroker could outlast most ownership cycles. Let's face it, when you start reaching 600+hp you can expect rebuilds/refreshes sooner than the 100,000+ miles a stocker might last.

The problem with the Viper is that as mentioned - boring it out is not an option. It will safely take 0.030" which is too small an increase to justitfy the exercise unless you have worn bores that need it.

Therefore stroking is the ONLY safe way to go big on the Viper.

510 can be very strong if you re-treat the crank after it has been offset. If not re-treated it's limits are likely to be less than the stock crank... but that leaves room for plenty of power - because people have made 1200rwtq+ on a stock crank.

542-550 is possible with custom cranks and builds lots of power, and can be a great street/weekend strip motor if you keep the rpms to a sensible level. If you want 7000rpm however - it can be done - but it ain't going to be a 10 year 50,000 engine.

For naturally aspirated Viper engines - bigger is better up until around 550 cubes. After that (which could be done) piston speed and rod side angles will start reaching extremes, but someone will be sure to try it, and it'll work on a dyno, and possibly at the track.... but it will not be good for long 5th gear roll outs to the fuel cut off.... lol

For a BOOSTED V10 engine - a stroker will increase power at any boost level.... however a stronger engine could be built with a smaller stroke. The smaller engine could be built to hold together at high rpm all day, and the power loss from the size reduction more than overcome by adding more boost. In other words - at the limits - a stock sized or destroked Viper engine will have more power potential than a bigger long stroke engine that will simply not tolerate the boost levels and rpms the smaller engine can take.

In a dyno competition and for 1/4 mile runs - a long stroke engine can pull the numbers, but a square or an oversquare engine makes a better high performance engine as they love to rev and will do it with more dependability.

Somebody making a 1500hp stroker 550 twin turbo will prove nothing - because well over 2000hp can be made from a smaller than stock engine. People are getting over 1500hp out of factory iron block small block Chevy's, even on a hydraulic cam.

A good street engine can tolerate rod/stroke ratios in the mid to high 1.4's - but rpms under 6k are advised if you want any kind of engine life. They are hand grenades under 1.5:1 held together only by the integrity of the parts and the quality of the build. Like I said - it can be done, but it isn't good math.

The best high performance engines that you can lean on with confidence anytime anywhere and that could take high rpm for extended periods - like around 1.75:1 or better rod/stroke ratios. :2tu:
 

Big Medicine

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I'm missing the point on why you can't bore a Viper block. Didn't LPE bore & stroke one (0.020 & 0.140 inches respectively), run it through stock cats, and get 580 rwhp/rwtq?

With a warranty?

Ag/Sept 2000 issue of SCI
 

Torquemonster

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I'm missing the point on why you can't bore a Viper block. Didn't LPE bore & stroke one (0.020 & 0.140 inches respectively), run it through stock cats, and get 580 rwhp/rwtq?

With a warranty?

Ag/Sept 2000 issue of SCI

you can bore - but .030" is the max, and that is your last size without having to resleeve the block and start again - not a job for any but the best machine shops.

The point is this - 0.020" over-bore makes sense - it allows you to blueprint the bores on a used engine, yet leave one more oversize before the block is toast (or needs a very expensive resleeve).

But why would you go to the max. of 0.030" if you do not have to? Maybe if you have or are prepared to buy spare blocks later :D

The extra power by boring just 0.030" is not significant.

The extra power from increasing stroke by 0.140" WILL be felt in the seat.

re your example - boring 0.020" could not be felt seat of pants - it simply helped the entire combo without maxing out the bores to the limit.
 

joe117

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"NHRA has been " CCing" (measuring the displacement) engines for years"

I've seen these things and I guess they must work. I didn't know that they were accurate enough to detect a small displacement change.

Not that a piston in a tube couldn't do the job, but I always wondered how these things compensated for cam timing.

How does the cam timing effect the air pumped into a device like that?
 
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