This is how bad the paint can get

[Tom F&L GoR]

OK, I have a '94 with ~95K miles that stays outside 100% of the time in upstate NY since 1998. I am not complaining, nor do I care what anyone thinks about how I treat the car. It is my daily driver (which I will start to term "enjoyed daily") and I am sharing this information merely so that the current owner of my next '94 keeps it in good shape while I use this one up.

With that disclaimer out of the way, I wanted to show what happens to the clearcoat. I have a friend with a black '94 that spent the first half of it's life in a garage and most of the second half under a cover, and it is starting the same things. So I do not think it is related to sun exposure, only time.

Bubbles in the paint start when the clearcoat seems to lift off the paint layer. After they get larger you can pick at it, or the layer that has lifted off cracks and breaks away (like popping a blister.) I put the tack in the picture so you get an idea of the size.

They keep getting bigger.

And bigger.

On the hood the paint seems to shrink and split. The white underneath might be the primer?

And of course, they grow, too.

On the door the lighter swirls are "in" the paint and haven't changed the surface (yet.) So while it looks odd, you cannot feel it.

I don't have an explanation. The bubbles are mostly on the rear of the car, the split paint only on the hood, and the swirls only on one door. Good luck.

 

[plumcrazy]

what kind of wax did you use ?

 

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

I'm going to suggest that looks like it was caused by "acid rain" Unfortunately very common in the NE.

 

[Newport Viper]

Tom could I copy your post over at Meguiarsonline.com

 

[bluesrt]

the blisters look like factory boo boo..the check cracks look like a repaint that someone didnt use the correct percentage in the thinner they used,not that i think i would bet my viper on it though lol..

 

[AZTVR]

After they get larger you can pick at it, or the layer that has lifted off cracks and breaks away (like popping a blister.) I put the tack in the picture so you get an idea of the size.


They keep getting bigger.


And bigger.

My Mom always told us, " Don't pick at it, you'll make it worse ! "
She'd then spray some Bactine on it.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Wax?

I can agree acid rain has a part. I drive through the Adirondacks to see my daughter and it is very sad to see.

The cracks are over the hotter parts of the engine. I am 99.99% sure that this is not a repaint.

I'm really into technical truth, so I'd be a little concerned over what use this would have at Meguiarsonline.com. As I said, another '94 shows the same signs and has had a completely different life, so I'm strongly leaning to "Dodge learns to paint composite material never used in production before." What would they do/say over there? Any free samples to test?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

My Mom always told us, " Don't pick at it, you'll make it worse ! "
She'd then spray some Bactine on it.

I didn't think it would take too long to hear this one...

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I guess something I'd like to add....

When at the oil company, part of testing a new gasoline was to spill it on paint panels every day. Each metal plate was painted with various OEM colors and left outside 24/7. After a long time they were cleaned up to look for staining, softening of the paint, etc, etc. Never saw anything "bad" happen that wasn't repaired by the clean-up. So I have a fairly high level of respect for paints and polymers and my technical bias is towards a "good" paint applied to a "less well understood" surface. In several engineering articles it was explained that Dodge had issues with the hood and not until Amoco Chemicals helped them out did they get a material+mold+temperature that resulted in hoods that lined up with the rest of the car. One reason it cost $13,000, I guess.

Maybe after a few more replies we'll have enough info to post this to the Grail Keeper.

 

[Camfab]

Tom, this type of paint damage is very common in Southern California. The majority of mid nineties cars out here suffer from this condition. I am sure the composite materials add a additional dimension, but it's very common here on all makes and models.

 

[GR8_ASP]

The cracks on the hood are shrinkage areas where filler was used in finishing the hood. Very common on Gen I due to poor composite quality. They tend to start out like chicken foot prints. Without a doubt added exposure to heat (sun or engine) would increase the rate of shrinkage. You may indeed have the most tested Viper ever for sun and heat exposure.

Note my 95 had the chicken foot prints on the hood near the back. I had it refinished and 2 years later they came back. Some of the indentations crack as the shrinkage increased

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Note my 95 had the chicken foot prints on the hood near the back. I had it refinished and 2 years later they came back. Some of the indentations crack as the shrinkage increased

Yes, the chickens walked around a lot near the cowl in the center, although some are at what would be the front ends of the valve covers.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Tom, this type of paint damage is very common in Southern California. The majority of mid nineties cars out here suffer from this condition. I am sure the composite materials add a additional dimension, but it's very common here on all makes and models.

Well, I wonder what the connection is. This car is outside, but certainly does not get the amount of sun that it would in CA. (Hey, snow covers it for parts of the year.)

It must be the sunny disposition of the driver, smiling brightly while driving every day...

 

[Freddog11]

Tom, I worked for PPG (Resins and Coatings Division, Automotive OEM and Refinish) for 16 years, starting out as a chemist and ending up in sales. That said, I'll tell you a few of the causes for the problems you showed us.

Number one: Extreme temperature variations cause delamination between the clearcoat and the basecoat color. This will also rarely happen between the basecoat color and the substrate primer. Basically the clearcoat will expand and contract at a different rate than the basecoat color in extreme heat or cold. It actually happens more often on areas of the car where snow, ice, or frost accumulate. It can also be accelerated in areas that are subsequently heated quickly, such as a hood over the engine.

Number two: Acid Rain, as previously mentioned penetrates the clearcoat surface and breaks down the chemical bond between the clearcoat and the basecoat color. Again, this will cause a delamination between the layers since once the chemical bond is destroyed, only the weaker mechanical bond remains. Like the above reason, usually occurs predominately on top surfaces for obvious reasons.

Number three: More likely on repaints...recoat sensitivity, or not enough dry time either between the basecoat color coats and the clearcoat or not enough flash time between coats of clear. Again, unlikely on OEM and will usually show up much sooner in the form of "solvent popping".

Number four: Poor compatability between the clearcoat and the basecoat color. I would think Dodge would know better than to do this but I've seen it on OEM before. You can't just put any clear over any substrate. In the old days when I first started, guys used to try to put acrylics over laquer (yikes). The acrylics were usually much "hotter" and would dissolve the laquer under them. It can be done but usually with an intermediary barrier coat.

Number five: Insufficient clearcoat applied (or even some has been removed by color sanding or buffing) causing the clearcoat to provide a poor UV and chemical barrier. In the late 80s and early 90s the Big 3 were big offenders of this one. They were only allowed to spray a certain quantity of VOCs so rather than paint less cars, they just used less clearcoat on the same number of cars. We all remember the cars and especially trucks running around with paint peeling off back then. Well, there wasn't enough clearcoat or even colorcoat UV and chemical barrier protection to keep the primers from degrading so both the chemical and mechanical bonds were destroyed under the topcoats. It's like leaving something primered and never painting it. After a while the primer looks like chalk. This is another unlikely scenario based on the pictures you posted.

Number six: Poor waterbourne technology. Again, based on the VOC regulations of the time, auto manufacturers used a significant amount of waterbourne materials. Unfortunately, the technology was not very advanced at the time and the protection provided by these materials was substandard at best. Just about anything would ********* these clearcoats, inclucing water if left to absorb long enough (e.g. snow pack on the roof or hood). This scenario is also likely, based on the period your car was built.

There are a few other possible causes as well, but I could go on forever and a couple of these are most likely.

The bottom line is, the only fix is to sand it down (no chemical stripping) or media blast it off and repaint.

Good luck, hope this helps.

 

[Camfab]

Very informative, by the way, I had one of those late eighties Chevy Cargo Vans that peeled in two years! It was repainted under a factory recall at the dealership.

 

[texas_venom]

A lot of factors could play a part in this. One being how the car is maintained. I have seen some 94-95 models that look practically brand new but they are well taken care of (never left dirty or sitting out in the rain). You have to remember the car is 15 years old and if you leave it outside... well you have to expect it. By the way a car cover is not really that good of protection if its sitting outside. Water evaporates up under the cover, sits on the paint, and does its damage.

 

[Freddog11]

Very informative, by the way, I had one of those late eighties Chevy Cargo Vans that peeled in two years! It was repainted under a factory recall at the dealership.

That recall was very expensive for the Big 3, but very profitable for the dealerships and the paint manufacturers. I was lucky enough to get out of the technical arena and into the commissioned sales around that time.

 

[Newport Viper]

Thanks for the posts Freddog11 !

 

[Freddog11]

Thanks for the posts Freddog11 !

Hey, with all the help Tom has given us all with his knowledge of automotive lubricants and fluids, I hope I can help him out a little. How does that guy remember all that stuff?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Hi Freddog11, thanks for the technical information. For the record, #1 is obviously likely and #2 is also given the region the car lives in. #3 is a no, since it hasn't been painted over, and I had a '96 Dakota that looked like the paint peeled off so I know that look...

I'm not going to do anything now; the car is enjoyed daily from inside the cockpit and I chose a green car to avoid "attention." I'm not looking for the car to be exceptionally pretty. I did think it was interesting for others to see what "old" Vipers might look like and your explanation helps with the story.

It does look nice with a red ribbon in the grill at this time of year, though.

 

[got one]

Those who know my car know that it looks fantastic for it's age, but I too have just received some small bubbles...out of nowhere. I agree, it is due to time. Time for a repaint

 

[mufflerbearings96]

The bubbles in the paint are caused from a defect in the clearcoat. When the temperature rises and falls the clearcoat bubbles and cracks like yours. hope this helps..