LIRacer
Viper Owner
What makes the most power, Twin Turbos or a Super Charger?
TT vs SC
- Thread starter LIRacer
- Start date
CHAD
Enthusiast
Oh boy.
2MANYTOYS
Enthusiast
Exactly
Simms
Enthusiast
How much do you want to spend?
1BADSNK
Enthusiast
That's easy. TWIN TURBOS but cost more $$$$$. I'm going with the 2nd best set up. A paxton w/15lbs for about $10k less.
My $.02
My $.02
Casey
Enthusiast
Hilarious, LMAO too
Casey
Enthusiast
Obviously, it's Twin Turbo--more exactly Heffner Twin Turbo!
IEATVETS
Enthusiast
I am waiting for all of the smartas$ comments that will surely follow!!
onerareviper
Enthusiast
Here's a more interesting question.... Why do Top Fuel cars still use a top mounted blower, and could they produce more power with a turbo/turbos?
Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
We learned in the last week that turbos are only good for 7 or 8 passes... then they seize up. Blowers last a little longer.
*wearing flak jacket*
*ducking for cover*
JD
*wearing flak jacket*
*ducking for cover*
JD
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
haha... it's true that brown stuff can happen. The odds are however that a turbo will last many years - try to find ANY serious big rig without one.
matching the blown turbos are the holders of blowers with seized bearings.... both are subject to manufacturer faults - and is another reason why serious motors should use race blueprinted units - whether blower or turbos.
Turbos require significantly less maintenance - unless there are problems.
re Top Fuel - it was tried years ago - they made more power but the fuel systems back then could not pump enough to keep up. NOwdays the fuel systems can keep up but the blown engines are already pumped so full of fuel they are on the point of hydraulicing - so the added power of a turbo is mute - you just can't get any more in... so until they can address that - Top Fuel is already making max power on available technology. A fairer comparison would be on race gas where most power is made by boost not chemical supercharging - on race gas - a serious turbo will walk all over a blower for power - adding around 200hp spec for spec at serious racing levels on an average race motor.... and 200hp is assuming you use the highest form of supercharging like a PSI unit or all out race Procharger etc.
If you use a Paxton - a proper turbo set has a power potential that is double the gains a Paxton can make... or more. A PAxton can gain around 500hp on a Viper (ignoring engine mod power gains).... turbos can add 1000hp easy.
PhoenixGTS
Enthusiast
And the fuel car guys cannot put the current power they have to the ground. We have all seen where they put a tiny bit too much clutch in their tune and the tires light up in smoke, and even when they get down track clean and even with with 8,000 pounds of downforce from the big rear wings they often smoke the tires through the speed traps.
Casey
Enthusiast
How about 1 blower and 1 turbo on a Viper! Haven't seen one of those yet!
ZX12
Enthusiast
I'm no expert in Top Fuel, but I got some insight into them when I worked part time at an engine shop a long time ago. He built racing engines (street stock, super stock, late model, sprint cars, alcohol dragsters, muscle boat engines, and blown nitro engines). They use 14-71 Roots blowers, spun by a cogged Gilmer belt drive, overdriven by 50%, to essentially eliminate boost lag. Although they have come a long way in reducing turbo lag, in the top fuel world, every thousandth of a second counts, and a tenth second of lag can lose a race (You all know the importance of a good 60 foot time). He mentioned that blowers produce power more predictably for a given RPM, which is important in setting up the clutch, which is the place where most top fuelers say the race is won or lost.
Although centrifugal blowers and turbos are more efficient that roots blowers, and potentially can make more power than a roots, top fuelers are already making 6000 horsepower, so they are not begging for more power. It only takes 400 hp to run the Roots blower, so to them, that's not much of a loss. 6000 hp is hard enough to manage with current clutch and tire technology. Also, since top fuel engines are running at near hydraulic lock (and engine destruction), they really don't need to pack more air in there. If you go back to organic chemistry, the nitromethane molecule (CH3-NO2) already contains an oxygen group, which is reason again that they don't need the extra air from a more efficient air pump. 500 cubic inch TF engines only use about 3000 cfm and the blowers run at 32 psi (if my memory serves), which is not much more than the super street cars run now. The nitromethane supplies most of the needed oxygen. That's why they use 32 fuel injectors to pack as much fuel into the cylinders as possible. There are some other things, but those are the ones I remember...
CHAD
Enthusiast
Top fuel engines make closer to 8000hp now.
The blowers take MUCH more than 400hp to turn. Definitely in the 4-digits.
As stated earlier, due to the fuel they run, the engines are close to maxed regardless of FI method.
For every form of racing, look which power adder is most penalized or outlawed.
This sums it up best:
Turbos are an unfair advantage but if you can run them, why wouldn't you? Nothing else even comes close.
The blowers take MUCH more than 400hp to turn. Definitely in the 4-digits.
As stated earlier, due to the fuel they run, the engines are close to maxed regardless of FI method.
For every form of racing, look which power adder is most penalized or outlawed.
This sums it up best:
Turbos are an unfair advantage but if you can run them, why wouldn't you? Nothing else even comes close.
1BADSNK
Enthusiast
Mike J/W what do you have done to get those #'s the non nos #'s?
Heads and cam I assume? what else?
[/QUOTE]
STUGOTS
Yea I've got heads,cam,rr,full exhaust,and Larry Macedo's tuning.
Heads and cam I assume? what else?
[/QUOTE]
STUGOTS
Yea I've got heads,cam,rr,full exhaust,and Larry Macedo's tuning.
Big Medicine
Enthusiast
How about 1 blower and 1 turbo on a Viper! Haven't seen one of those yet!
Probably pull to one side or the other.
1BADSNK
Enthusiast
Those are some nice numbers for those mods mind if I ask who did the heads?
[/QUOTE]
Yea they were Jeff (Moreys..spelling) I paid an extra $500 or $800 over his normal heads because these had more time invested in them. I believe they were a full stage 3 cnc. Larry could tell you more.
2MANYTOYS
Enthusiast
JD your too funny!Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
if i didn't like Chad i wouldn't prod him. heck, i had a SC break before. Two in my mustang days... it is all mechanical stuff just the same.
JD
JD
Russ M
Enthusiast
Turbo's are outlawd in top fuel.
Its not a difficult question at all, turbo's by far make more power with everything else being equal.
ZX12
Enthusiast
It's been a while since I kept up with TF specs, and it's amazing they're up to 8000 hp now. Interestingly, Kenny Bernstein's TF "only" puts out 6500 hp. Since I've heard numbers from 200 to 1500 hp to run the TF blowers, I decided to talk to the Gates company (the ones who make the blower belts for TF) to see if they have a solid number. Unfortunately, even they don't have a good accurate horsepower figure for how much power it takes to run a blower. I'm wondering if anyone has honestly directly measured it? They say the blower belt can easily handle 1000+ hp, but they are designed to handle the enormous inertial shock loads (between crankshaft and blower shaft) during acceleration and deceleration. The 1000 hp "load" does not necessarily mean it takes 1000 hp to turn the blower, it's more of a peak load rating at the start and end of a run, when the two shafts are resisting each other's motion. That's what I surmised from it. I guess a dyno measurement on the blower pulley would be the only way to measure the drag on the engine.
I have to bring up a hypothetical question...I wonder why no one has built an all-out twin turbo top fuel dragster to destroy the current records set by today's Roots-blown TF dragsters? Sure, NHRA outlaws turbos on TF/Funny car, but who's stopping a (rich) privateer from making a turbo dragster, to ridicule the Roots engines? Not all dragstrips adhere to NHRA's rules. Heck, a privateer could open his own "unlimited" drag strip, anything goes, no rules. It's kinda like the Mt Everest cliche. Records were meant to be broken, especially in the car world. Look at land speed racing...at the top levels, it's essentially unlimited--rocket, jet, you name it. All the quickest piston-driven quarter mile records to date are Roots blown engines; if nothing even comes close to turbos, and since they have the advantage, howcome no one has challenged the Roots TF/Funny car records with an all-out take-no-prisoners turbo dragster yet? Where's Richard Branson?
CHAD
Enthusiast
Interesting idea.
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