Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Supercharger. Doug Levin.
Turbo or Supercharger?
- Thread starter Chuck 98 RT/10
- Start date
Definitely a supercharger. The power is more predictable and less heat is produced. Smaller turbo's have good performance on the street until you go to bigger turbo's -- The low end power becomes irritating until you get to higher rpm's then wheel spin is too great. I've had both worlds. I'll take a supercharger for the street.... I'll take a turbo for the race track.
Max
Max
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
Personally, I prefer turbos... and here's why.
Turbos don't **** power from your engine - so they generally make more power for a given boost level.
Turbo's don't require extensive reworking of your belts to get them to run.
Turbos don't affect low-end power too much, but they give massive high power. The net effect is a car that is as docile around town as any other, but screams like a banshee on the top end.
Turbos give an afterburner-like sound on a car, whereas superchargers have that classis SC whine. I like both, but the jet-engine sound of a turbo can't be beat!
You will usually find that the RPM-to-PSI ratio of a turbo allows it to make more power than most SC setups.
Now, having said that... I would take a quality SC setup over a hack job turbo ANY DAY. If I was buying a forced induction setup RIGHT NOW, it would be Doug Levin without even a second thought. I am planning to get a silver/blue GTS/ACR this year, and if that happens, I hope Doug Levin will have a turbo setup for the Viper at that time - and it will go to him to wave his magic wand over the car
If you are considering a turbo setup, talk to Lingenfelter too. I talked to them before my GTS was wrecked about doing a TT package. They are interested, but need someone to be the first. The only thing is they want the first person to pay just like the rest, and their pricetag was around $65k! WAY too much IMO for a turbo on a Viper.
Turbos don't **** power from your engine - so they generally make more power for a given boost level.
Turbo's don't require extensive reworking of your belts to get them to run.
Turbos don't affect low-end power too much, but they give massive high power. The net effect is a car that is as docile around town as any other, but screams like a banshee on the top end.
Turbos give an afterburner-like sound on a car, whereas superchargers have that classis SC whine. I like both, but the jet-engine sound of a turbo can't be beat!
You will usually find that the RPM-to-PSI ratio of a turbo allows it to make more power than most SC setups.
Now, having said that... I would take a quality SC setup over a hack job turbo ANY DAY. If I was buying a forced induction setup RIGHT NOW, it would be Doug Levin without even a second thought. I am planning to get a silver/blue GTS/ACR this year, and if that happens, I hope Doug Levin will have a turbo setup for the Viper at that time - and it will go to him to wave his magic wand over the car
If you are considering a turbo setup, talk to Lingenfelter too. I talked to them before my GTS was wrecked about doing a TT package. They are interested, but need someone to be the first. The only thing is they want the first person to pay just like the rest, and their pricetag was around $65k! WAY too much IMO for a turbo on a Viper.
Gerald
Enthusiast
Ouchie Ouchie!
Gotta chime in here... NO flames intended
Trey, you might be suprised...
If I read that sig correctly it's with slicks...
Venom 800 Twin Turbo
Best 1/4 Mile ET: 10.11 sec.
Best 1/4 Mile Trap Speed: 143.6 mph
I know of the fastest S/C viper does about 10 mph faster in the 1/4 mile WITHOUT slicks...
Gerald
Gotta chime in here... NO flames intended
Trey, you might be suprised...
If I read that sig correctly it's with slicks...
Venom 800 Twin Turbo
Best 1/4 Mile ET: 10.11 sec.
Best 1/4 Mile Trap Speed: 143.6 mph
I know of the fastest S/C viper does about 10 mph faster in the 1/4 mile WITHOUT slicks...
Gerald
MES
Enthusiast
I agree with Mike above. Turbo all the way, if its designed right. There is no reason why a turbo should cost so much more than a supercharger. $65K come on get real, $4K is more like what it actually costs, yea they have to recover the cost for engineering blah, blah, blah... sell 100 kits make $3K back on each one that's $300,000 more than enough to engineer a kit.
Give me a twin turbo with 8 lb of boost and a intercooler for under $8K drool.... That would be a perfect street set up and add 200-225 rwhp to a stock car with perfect streetability
Heck a set of headers, cats, and exhaust can cost nearly half that! Supercharging is the easiest and most abundantly available form of FI but that new TT set up posted here sure does sound sweet. I think I'm going to wait until spring or summer, but I'm going to have me one of those set ups before too long!
Give me a twin turbo with 8 lb of boost and a intercooler for under $8K drool.... That would be a perfect street set up and add 200-225 rwhp to a stock car with perfect streetability
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
John H kinda made my point...
It's not just about which is faster, and which has the higher dyno #. I think Doug Levin would dissuade anyone who just drives on the street and wants a "more powerful car" from going with his biggest kit (which makes, what, over 1,000lb-ft to the wheels?). It's got a LOT to do with WHO is doing the work for you.
Alot of people will say the prices are too high (and I don't think ANYONE could convince me that $65k is a reasonable price for a turbo job), but I would certainly pay more and go with a reputable shop than get a cheap job that blows my engine.
There are a lot of local guys who go with LPE. I've owned an LPE job, and driven a bunch, and you just can't beat their quality of work. My friend's LPE TT Z06 is devilish. It's so quiet and smooth and idles and drives better than a stocker, but when he gets on it, he roars past my GTS like I was standing still, and it sounds like I'm standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier listening to F-14's take off. Amazing.
I've never driven a DLM car, but I did do a lot of research, and in terms of supercharging for Vipers, DLM is the equal of John Lingenfelter.
The real issue as I see it, is not how to physically mount the turbos or how to route the lines - that's pretty much just a trial and error thing. And it's not what turbos to use, or how to plumb them - that's a research and trial and error thing. The real problem is making the car run correctly with fuel, spark, and compression (as in not too much). This is where folks like DLM and LPE excel. When my friend went to pick up his TT Z06, there were SEVERAL cars that had the "biggest" package another 'famous' tuner sells on them. They were all there being fixed by Lingenfelter as favors to the owners, who were past and future LPE customers. The work had not been done to make these cars run right, and they idled like crap, and drove even worse.
I'd rather have a QUALITY job that made 700RWHP than a hack job that made 900RWHP. You definitley want to talk to other customers who own these cars and get their feedback - probably offline since most people don't want to spout negative comments publicly. I wouldn't want to be in the first 5 to get a package unless it was someone who had a history of doing quality work, and attending to customers needs. At this power level, SOMETHING will break sometime, and that's when the name you picked becomes VERY important, IMO.
Sorry to be so long winded - I've "been there done that" in terms of working with tuners, and I've had good and bad experiences, and from now on, I'd only go with someone with an impeccable reputation for quality and support.
It's not just about which is faster, and which has the higher dyno #. I think Doug Levin would dissuade anyone who just drives on the street and wants a "more powerful car" from going with his biggest kit (which makes, what, over 1,000lb-ft to the wheels?). It's got a LOT to do with WHO is doing the work for you.
Alot of people will say the prices are too high (and I don't think ANYONE could convince me that $65k is a reasonable price for a turbo job), but I would certainly pay more and go with a reputable shop than get a cheap job that blows my engine.
There are a lot of local guys who go with LPE. I've owned an LPE job, and driven a bunch, and you just can't beat their quality of work. My friend's LPE TT Z06 is devilish. It's so quiet and smooth and idles and drives better than a stocker, but when he gets on it, he roars past my GTS like I was standing still, and it sounds like I'm standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier listening to F-14's take off. Amazing.
I've never driven a DLM car, but I did do a lot of research, and in terms of supercharging for Vipers, DLM is the equal of John Lingenfelter.
The real issue as I see it, is not how to physically mount the turbos or how to route the lines - that's pretty much just a trial and error thing. And it's not what turbos to use, or how to plumb them - that's a research and trial and error thing. The real problem is making the car run correctly with fuel, spark, and compression (as in not too much). This is where folks like DLM and LPE excel. When my friend went to pick up his TT Z06, there were SEVERAL cars that had the "biggest" package another 'famous' tuner sells on them. They were all there being fixed by Lingenfelter as favors to the owners, who were past and future LPE customers. The work had not been done to make these cars run right, and they idled like crap, and drove even worse.
I'd rather have a QUALITY job that made 700RWHP than a hack job that made 900RWHP. You definitley want to talk to other customers who own these cars and get their feedback - probably offline since most people don't want to spout negative comments publicly. I wouldn't want to be in the first 5 to get a package unless it was someone who had a history of doing quality work, and attending to customers needs. At this power level, SOMETHING will break sometime, and that's when the name you picked becomes VERY important, IMO.
Sorry to be so long winded - I've "been there done that" in terms of working with tuners, and I've had good and bad experiences, and from now on, I'd only go with someone with an impeccable reputation for quality and support.
Paolo Castellano
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
Personally, I prefer turbos... and here's why.
Turbos don't **** power from your engine - so they generally make more power for a given boost level.
Turbo's don't require extensive reworking of your belts to get them to run.
Turbos don't affect low-end power too much, but they give massive high power. The net effect is a car that is as docile around town as any other, but screams like a banshee on the top end.
Turbos give an afterburner-like sound on a car, whereas superchargers have that classis SC whine. I like both, but the jet-engine sound of a turbo can't be beat!
You will usually find that the RPM-to-PSI ratio of a turbo allows it to make more power than most SC setups.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mike, I agree with everything you said, I would like to clarify one point and also add something that has been overlooked so far. You said the turbo does not affect low end power too much but screams like a banshee at higher RPM. This does not necessarily have to be the case. As long as the turbo is sized correctly for 8 liters of dipsplacement @ such and such CFM and the range of boost you want to run there should be virtually no lag. This is achieved by calculating the proper area ratio of the exhaust gas turbine housing for when you want the boost to be on full tilt. Depending upon which ratio you use, you can make it so the boost comes on full tilt at 2500 RPM or 3500 RPM. Coming on earlier might be better for some applications than others, coming on later might be better for others. Being that the Viper engine is a low rev. monster, I would want to have the boost come on relatively earlier than later so I would not have to wind out the motor. Shifting @5,000 RPM has to be easier on the motor in terms of long term durability. And as long as the efficiency map of the turbo will allow the turbo to still be within the parameters of its efficient range @6,000 RPM while having full boost by 2500 RPM, this will yield huge #'s in terms of the total area under the curve!
One thing that has been overlooked so far has been the flexibility the turbo offers over the supercharger in the ability to adjust the boost on the fly with a boost controller instead of having to change the size of the supercharger pulley. To me this is very important! If I can leave the line with 5LBS of boost and once I hit third, I can go to 7-10LBS or whatever works best, I will have a considerable advantage over someone with a supercharger running 7-10LBS right off the line. Also, the turbo system can bleed off boost through the wastegate electronically as a form of traction control as well as through fuel cutoff. I am not sure(somebody please correct me if I am wrong here,) if a supercharger system has the capability to do this.
The big drawback of the turbo is the heat generated from its nature.==> The hotter the exhaust gases, the faster the turbine spins...= more power. The best way to handle this is with a properly designed/engineered, fabricated and installed intercooler. Let's face it though, when air gets compressed, it gets hotter-end of story. So whether a blower compresses the air, or a turbo compresses the air and radiatively heats the air charge, the heat has to be reduced to a certain point to 1. Ensure longevity, 2. Make maximum power/minimize potential for detonation.==> I think that with the proper ceramic coatings, intercooling and radiative heat dissipation from the engine compartment, the turbo has to be the way to go! This is why I believe you see just about all Lemans-winning prototype cars fitted with turbos. Paolo
P.S. Who here on this board could'nt use a jet engine, afterburner-like sound to supplement the roar of the Viper V-10? I know Mike Brunton and myself sure can!
Personally, I prefer turbos... and here's why.
Turbos don't **** power from your engine - so they generally make more power for a given boost level.
Turbo's don't require extensive reworking of your belts to get them to run.
Turbos don't affect low-end power too much, but they give massive high power. The net effect is a car that is as docile around town as any other, but screams like a banshee on the top end.
Turbos give an afterburner-like sound on a car, whereas superchargers have that classis SC whine. I like both, but the jet-engine sound of a turbo can't be beat!
You will usually find that the RPM-to-PSI ratio of a turbo allows it to make more power than most SC setups.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mike, I agree with everything you said, I would like to clarify one point and also add something that has been overlooked so far. You said the turbo does not affect low end power too much but screams like a banshee at higher RPM. This does not necessarily have to be the case. As long as the turbo is sized correctly for 8 liters of dipsplacement @ such and such CFM and the range of boost you want to run there should be virtually no lag. This is achieved by calculating the proper area ratio of the exhaust gas turbine housing for when you want the boost to be on full tilt. Depending upon which ratio you use, you can make it so the boost comes on full tilt at 2500 RPM or 3500 RPM. Coming on earlier might be better for some applications than others, coming on later might be better for others. Being that the Viper engine is a low rev. monster, I would want to have the boost come on relatively earlier than later so I would not have to wind out the motor. Shifting @5,000 RPM has to be easier on the motor in terms of long term durability. And as long as the efficiency map of the turbo will allow the turbo to still be within the parameters of its efficient range @6,000 RPM while having full boost by 2500 RPM, this will yield huge #'s in terms of the total area under the curve!
One thing that has been overlooked so far has been the flexibility the turbo offers over the supercharger in the ability to adjust the boost on the fly with a boost controller instead of having to change the size of the supercharger pulley. To me this is very important! If I can leave the line with 5LBS of boost and once I hit third, I can go to 7-10LBS or whatever works best, I will have a considerable advantage over someone with a supercharger running 7-10LBS right off the line. Also, the turbo system can bleed off boost through the wastegate electronically as a form of traction control as well as through fuel cutoff. I am not sure(somebody please correct me if I am wrong here,) if a supercharger system has the capability to do this.
The big drawback of the turbo is the heat generated from its nature.==> The hotter the exhaust gases, the faster the turbine spins...= more power. The best way to handle this is with a properly designed/engineered, fabricated and installed intercooler. Let's face it though, when air gets compressed, it gets hotter-end of story. So whether a blower compresses the air, or a turbo compresses the air and radiatively heats the air charge, the heat has to be reduced to a certain point to 1. Ensure longevity, 2. Make maximum power/minimize potential for detonation.==> I think that with the proper ceramic coatings, intercooling and radiative heat dissipation from the engine compartment, the turbo has to be the way to go! This is why I believe you see just about all Lemans-winning prototype cars fitted with turbos. Paolo
P.S. Who here on this board could'nt use a jet engine, afterburner-like sound to supplement the roar of the Viper V-10? I know Mike Brunton and myself sure can!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Hennessey / HMS:
Go for a ride in the fastest supercharged Viper that you can find. Then come to our shop and go for a ride in our Venom Twin Turbo. Then you will know for yourself not only which car felt stonger, but you would also know a lot more about the shops that offer the upgrades and the people who build them.
Trey, you got your ride in the Venom Twin Turbo, now you just need a ride in a SC Viper to have a comparison.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Trey, you won't have to go very far to find MANY realistically fast street Vipers that have superchargers on them. There ALL over the country and growing.
LOL.... Now, go to Johns shop to find "a" turbo Viper with a 75 shot of nitrous on it. It's very very fast! It's even faster than any supercharged Viper
.
Go for a ride in the fastest supercharged Viper that you can find. Then come to our shop and go for a ride in our Venom Twin Turbo. Then you will know for yourself not only which car felt stonger, but you would also know a lot more about the shops that offer the upgrades and the people who build them.
Trey, you got your ride in the Venom Twin Turbo, now you just need a ride in a SC Viper to have a comparison.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Trey, you won't have to go very far to find MANY realistically fast street Vipers that have superchargers on them. There ALL over the country and growing.
LOL.... Now, go to Johns shop to find "a" turbo Viper with a 75 shot of nitrous on it. It's very very fast! It's even faster than any supercharged Viper
Marc Lublin
Enthusiast
Platinum,
Lets not forget that no one I know of has made a reliable turbo setup for the Viper yet. I believe HMS made only 1 which he sold to someone that doesn't have his car yet. The car does get action though, since I believe John has been road racing his customers car all around town. At least it will be good and broken in by the time he gets it. Doug can tell you better than I about how many kits he has put together that are still up and running out there.
Lets not forget that no one I know of has made a reliable turbo setup for the Viper yet. I believe HMS made only 1 which he sold to someone that doesn't have his car yet. The car does get action though, since I believe John has been road racing his customers car all around town. At least it will be good and broken in by the time he gets it. Doug can tell you better than I about how many kits he has put together that are still up and running out there.
Gerald
Enthusiast
Yup, there is a function in Bradenton this weekend. Don't know how many ppl are going.... Will be fun. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to hit 12's with my car....
Gerald
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Gerald on 02-05-2002 at 01:18 PM</font>
Gerald
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Gerald on 02-05-2002 at 01:18 PM</font>
Miles B
Enthusiast
Uh.. he makes a fair point.. I'm not sure of the situation further than what I've read here (so if I'm off the mark tell me)... but John, why *are* you taking a customer's car to drags etc? I hope he wants you doing this..
Gerald
Enthusiast
John,
I would be happy to take you up on the challenge. Get a customer of yours that has a TT in his posession and have him race my S/C 98 on boost only (NO NOS) w/o slicks. From a roll, stop, 100, 130 etc...
Mail the check please..
email me for address...
Thanks John!
Gerald
I would be happy to take you up on the challenge. Get a customer of yours that has a TT in his posession and have him race my S/C 98 on boost only (NO NOS) w/o slicks. From a roll, stop, 100, 130 etc...
Mail the check please..
email me for address...
Thanks John!
Gerald
Gerald
Enthusiast
?Sounds like a nice friendly challenge!!
How about MPH? That's the true measure of a cars power...! Stock Pilots to boot!
Is the check in the mail yet??
I would understand if it's only 1 dollar, times are tough from what I read..
Thanks!
Gerald
p.s. Scott will you be there? Hope to see you...I'll actually refrain from partying with naked women to see grease balls run their cars in front of more grease balls.. LOL!
How about MPH? That's the true measure of a cars power...! Stock Pilots to boot!
Is the check in the mail yet??
I would understand if it's only 1 dollar, times are tough from what I read..
Thanks!
Gerald
p.s. Scott will you be there? Hope to see you...I'll actually refrain from partying with naked women to see grease balls run their cars in front of more grease balls.. LOL!
TomMiriViper
Enthusiast
I wouldn't think for a moment to have one of the fastest Vipers. But I own one of the best performance cars ever
!
NO turbos, just a DLM supercharger.
Cheers,
Tom
NO turbos, just a DLM supercharger.
Cheers,
Tom
TomMiriViper
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlatinumViper8:
Thanks for all the info!! I agree that the sound of a turbo kills the sound of a SC. You can't beat that blow off valve noise.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>PlatinumViper8,
You can hear the blowoff on my SC Viper from a mile away!
Tom
Thanks for all the info!! I agree that the sound of a turbo kills the sound of a SC. You can't beat that blow off valve noise.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>PlatinumViper8,
You can hear the blowoff on my SC Viper from a mile away!
Tom
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlatinumViper8:
the sound of a turbo kills the sound of a SC.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't you mean it the other way around? I used to love hearing Gerald's DLM supercharged 94 RT/10. Gawd, the car was awesome.
the sound of a turbo kills the sound of a SC.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't you mean it the other way around? I used to love hearing Gerald's DLM supercharged 94 RT/10. Gawd, the car was awesome.
TX WHOS YOUR DADDY
Enthusiast
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YAWN!TURBO THIS/SUPERCHARGE THAT....OK GREAT!MEMO TO JPH...GOOD LUCK ON YOUR RACE.GET AS MUCH FLORIDA CASH WININGS AS U CAN.CAUSE NEXT MONTH ILL BE TAKING IT FROM U.HAVE A NICE DAY!
treynor
Enthusiast
For the record... I envy you guys in Texas. The Viper tuner density is the highest in the country, you have all the best straight-line racing roads, and no one demands to check your emissions every two years.
On the bright side, I'm less likely to lose a random pick-me-up race out here in NorCal. The "fast" streetcars out here all seem to run high 10s. Maybe it's the air...
On the bright side, I'm less likely to lose a random pick-me-up race out here in NorCal. The "fast" streetcars out here all seem to run high 10s. Maybe it's the air...
TX WHOS YOUR DADDY
Enthusiast
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TREYNOR,FYI WE HAVE TO PASS EMISSIONS TESTING EVERY YEAR!
treynor
Enthusiast
It works similarly to the BOV on a turbo application. If you're running high revs but with partially-closed throttle, the blowoff valve (I believe it's called a bypass valve on an SC application) allows the excess airflow being fed from the supercharger to vent into the engine compartment. The valve is opened by a difference in air pressure before and after the throttle bodies.
sc300tt
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by treynor:
It works similarly to the BOV on a turbo application. If you're running high revs but with partially-closed throttle, the blowoff valve (I believe it's called a bypass valve on an SC application) allows the excess airflow being fed from the supercharger to vent into the engine compartment. The valve is opened by a difference in air pressure before and after the throttle bodies.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, it's another one of those EX "Supra Groupies!"
It works similarly to the BOV on a turbo application. If you're running high revs but with partially-closed throttle, the blowoff valve (I believe it's called a bypass valve on an SC application) allows the excess airflow being fed from the supercharger to vent into the engine compartment. The valve is opened by a difference in air pressure before and after the throttle bodies.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, it's another one of those EX "Supra Groupies!"
Gerald
Enthusiast
This maybe a stupid question..
But what about a turbo on a supercharged car? Could it work?
?
Gerald
But what about a turbo on a supercharged car? Could it work?
?
Gerald
jamie furman
Enthusiast
Platinum who cares about all that dyno BS, posers thats who! what really counts is how your car drives everyday, is it still a street car or just a race car you can drive on the street?Does it make 2000 horse and run 12's? or does it only have 500 horse but runs 10's? Most guys are giving opinions on mods and tuners they have never used and never had and pinning cars against other cars that aren't even theirs.I would take these opinions with a grain of salt, unless the person that is giving the opinion has a SC or a Turbo and drives the car and races it himself. Not the opinion of a poser who knows a friend of a friend who has 8000 horse on the dyno and ought to run 8's hypothetically.Most of the replies you are getting are from guys who have neither and have never been in a car that does.Not trying to bust anyones balls but how can you give an opinion on something you don't have? Email the tuners personally and get some opinions from experience.
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