Where did the "08 Viper debut at NAIAS" go?

[Vic]

Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

I was typing my reply, and the thread dissapeared! Something funny is going on here! Anyway, here is my now-irrelevant reply.

The ZO7 is suppossed to be 2900 lbs, and have 650HP at the crank. That gives a possible power-to-weight ratio of 4.46lbs/HP.

If the 08 Viper weighs something like the current one, about 3400 lbs, it would need 760 HP to equal the coming ZO7 power-to-weight ratio. They need to put the Viper on a diet. An expensive diet. If they could get the weight down to say, 3125, it would only need 700HP to achieve 4.46lbs/HP.

Weight reduction ain't cheap, and thats where Chevy has an advantage, selling 40K Vettes a year enables them to spread their costs out, and make a viable business model for a light weight halo car.

disclaimer- Yes, we all know nothing is final until it rolls off the showroom floor, and all estimates are only as good as anyone's opinion. I just like to toss the numbers around.

 

[viper585]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

I removed it. Sorry. The '08 Viper will debut at the Jan. Detroit Auto Show.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

Just because of the cost to profit ratio of the Viper I believe DC will only go after the current Z06 with the next Viper...No way DC is gonna give the go ahead to a Z07 conquering Viper...Ill believe a Z07 killing Viper when I see it. It wouldnt have taken much to make the current SRT10 kill the C6 Z but they didnt do that even though they knew the numbers prior to the Z06 release.

Call me a pesimist

 

[viper585]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

As a side note...the '08 Viper is going to put the Viper on top for the moment. I have heard that GM is considering scapping all further development on the reported more powerful Vette....so the numbers you quote may be irrelevant. The new Viper is a fact...done deal. The next Z oh whatever is not a sure thing...in fact unlikely if you listen to GM news.

 

[sween]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

cant wait for january

 

[Austin]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

As a side note...the '08 Viper is going to put the Viper on top for the moment. I have heard that GM is considering scapping all further development on the reported more powerful Vette....so the numbers you quote may be irrelevant. The new Viper is a fact...done deal. The next Z oh whatever is not a sure thing...in fact unlikely if you listen to GM news.

I pretty much read this yesterday in DuPont Exotic Car. They said that DC would be showing the new '08 model at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Im glad someone could confirm this.

 

[Scott_in_FL]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

I'm joining the camp that bets the BlueDevil Z07 doesn't happen. They're having a rough enough time keeping the Z06 together and their customers happy that it would be pure stupidity to let that development team try to create something lighter with 150 more hp.

If GM were cash flush, and different performance groups could play around, then maybe I would think differently. However, the current financial picture does not allow unfettered spending to create low volume cars to satisfy the wet dreams of a select group of performance folks within the Corvette division. Imagine the recall/repair costs the Z07 will have to endure.

Is GM even positioned to sell/service this type of an automobile? The guy that wrenches on your malibu is going to perform service on a Z07???? Yeah, right.

 

[Vic]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

I'm joining the camp that bets the BlueDevil Z07 doesn't happen. They're having a rough enough time keeping the Z06 together and their customers happy that it would be pure stupidity to let that development team try to create something lighter with 150 more hp.

I dunno. There are some new pics (from this month) of a development mule driving around Michigan, with a bulge in the hood. Whatever they are doing, it has something to do with more power!

On the Viper side of the street, I heard the 08 Viper will have the GTSR concept car look to it. You know that red and silver one, floated a couple of years ago?

 

[FinalEd357]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

2.5 months to go...

 

[k4site]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

My bet is the lawyers will get to GM make it way less than 650 HP with traction control that you can not turn off!!!!

 

[RMBSRT]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

Don't believe the story of GM dropping the Blue Devil. It will happen. The Corvette factory in Bowling Green has a seperate line for the XLR that is hardliy moving. There is excess capacity that GM needs to use and the Blue Devil will fill it.

The engine plant is already tooling up for the for an "unspecified" motor so watch out. The Detroit auto show is going to be fun.

BTW - GM has penty of cash on hand.

 

[Scott_in_FL]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

Alright, I'm swayed by the latest posts that something is likely to happen. I still think it is poor business sense for them right now. They may have cash on hand, but that financial picture is less than rosy and the current car is not properly built (materials, design, assembly... who knows why these things are having such a hard time staying together). That is costly to GM in the form of recall/repair dollars and can't be good for its reputation building high perf sportscars.

Plus, the idea is wrong to some extent. Putting a blower on an engine and stuffing it under a bulged hood of a Z06 is not what they need. Rather, an FGT type car seems a better fit. Make it wild (I've seen the recent sketches and they still look tame), make it rare (a couple of hundred) and charge a fortune for it. Lamborghini who, Ferrari what? The Z06 fills the bill for a sub $100k car that regular folks can purchase. Make a ton and sell every one. But, then make a super-rare world ****** for a fortunate few to prove that you can.

 

[NHL2133]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

I've always been on the side that the Z07 will not be built/doesn't exist.
First off, development and production costs are hard to justify for a company that is looking to join forces with foreign auto makers to stay alive.
Secondly, there is almost no demographic to aim a Z07 at. How many people are going to buy a $100K+ Corvette? And how many of those are going to buy a $100K+ Vette with a ten to twenty thousand dollar mark up? I'd be willing to guess not to many people.
What do we have to go on so far? Speculation as far as I know. A photoshop of a C6R, and a "spy shot" of a Vette that could just be a tuners new induction system, or something else not related to a production car? To me it all seems like speculation.
We do know there will be a 2008 Viper, it's been bought and paid for already by Dodge, but *as far as I know* there is no word from the GM camp on the Z07/Blue Devil. So until GM says something offical, I'm calling Bull S***.

Just my .02

 

[Tusc]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

I think Scott hit the nail on the head. The current iteration of the Z06 is experiencing entirely too many problems. Though I haven't read up on them on CorvetteForum, I have come across a ton of signatures on several forums with list "2006 Z06 (SOLD)". That picture is worth a thousand words.

To NHL... actually, yes, there IS quite a market for a $100k+ Corvette. If you've never owned one or gone to one of their group events, you haven't seen just how devoted the owners are. As hot as you or I would be for a 2008 Viper with a GTS-R body, they would be HOTTER for a king-of-the-hill Corvette that they could call a "Viper Killer". I have two recent cases to exeplify this point. First, the ZR-1. The Lotus-designed, twin-cam 350 which came with 375hp for the first few years beginning in 89 I think? And then 405hp for it's finaly few years into what I think was 94 or 95. That car cost roughly $30,000 MORE than the base Corvette at the time and they all sold quickly and above sticker. There was also the Callaway Corvettes. These were available to order through your Chevvy dealer. The car was delivered as a twin-turbo 350 that was the fastest American car on wheels at the time. I don't know what the pricing would have been for those cars, but use your imagination. While the Corvette is built to be sold as an 'affordable' sports car for the masses, there are plenty of devotees out there with the money or the motivation to buy the proposed Z07. I don't doubt that for a second.

But like Scott said, I would be impressed if GM chose to stop whipping the lame mule and release a real racehorse as a one-off. I have only recently become fully enamored of the Ford GT. It's about the only car I want more than a Sapphire GTS. So I'd be curious to see what GM's gearheads could do if the management could find a way to keep the beancounters out of the project. I will be the first to say that the LS line of engines has been impressive since Day 1. LS1, LS2, LS6, LS7..... For a mass-production sohc V8, those things rock.

Maybe they ought to put out a 10-cylinder.

Edit - but imagine the recalls they'd have on THAT setup! The only Viper it will beat is when the tow truck changes lanes in front of one.

 

[RMBSRT]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

The incremental costs of the Blue Devil are low. They already have the engine plant, production line and suppliers in place. It would actually COST GM money if they did not do the Blue Devil.

And yes, people will pay $100k plus for a vette....they are paying $80k plus now. I did, and yes, I sold mine due to the service issues.

BTW - Ford made a BIG mistake with the GT. It is a great car but was a huge waste of assets for a company that should have been focused elsewhere.

 

[Fast Freddy]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

with OBD-3 not too far away and the new emmissions standards that will be implemented in 2008 i bet that the vipers engine will receive hemi heads because they are more efficient. in fact its entirely possible that the engine could see a reduction in displacement if daimler/chrysler can't get it to meet the new emmissions requirements. the reason the new "blue devil Z07" vette is getting a supercharger is because the motors displacement has been reduced from 7.4 litres to 6.2 litres as result of it not being able to pass the new emmisions requirements. and the only way that they can still make 500+ hp and still get that motor to pass emmissions and run on 91 octane was to resort to the supercharger. BIG cube motors are gonna get squeezed again just like they did in the early 70's as a result of OBD-3 and the new emmissions standards. displacement on demand is the solution to this problem but GM has not figured out how to perfect it yet in high HP applications. they are staring to utilize it in their economy cars, etc.

 

[Camfab]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

The Ford GT was not a waste of assets. It's a Halo car, just as the Viper was to Chrysler in '92. The Blue Devil will be a world ******, I give GM a lot of credit for pushing it through. I see diminishing values in the muscle car market in the forseeable future. The current market of Supercars- Vipers, particulary Ford GT's and the Blue Devil if it comes out will crush the values of the old barges. We are living in the biggest performance era of all time and most people still don't know it.

 

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

Don't believe the story of GM dropping the Blue Devil. It will happen. The Corvette factory in Bowling Green has a seperate line for the XLR that is hardliy moving. There is excess capacity that GM needs to use and the Blue Devil will fill it.
The engine plant is already tooling up for the for an "unspecified" motor so watch out. The Detroit auto show is going to be fun.
BTW - GM has penty of cash on hand.
The incremental costs of the Blue Devil are low. They already have the engine plant, production line and suppliers in place. It would actually COST GM money if they did not do the Blue Devil.
And yes, people will pay $100k plus for a vette....they are paying $80k plus now. I did, and yes, I sold mine due to the service issues.
BTW - Ford made a BIG mistake with the GT. It is a great car but was a huge waste of assets for a company that should have been focused elsewhere.
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Sorry, most of this does not make sense..
GM and Caddy are committed to the XLR and would never shut that line down to build a car that will only produce 1500 to 2000 units. That line would be moving MUCH slower than it is now and it also would make more sense to just add those 1500 to 2000 units to the Vette line as most things will be similar, if they can build the z and the base vette on the same line they can build both z's and the base on the same line.
The ZO7 engine would be built at the GM performance center in Detroit and there is NO news that it is tooling up, if it were the car would have to be announced as the news would be OUT. There is a new Caddy engine in development and that might add to the confusion.
GM DOES NOT HAVE A LOT OF EXTRA CASH ON HAND, and there is no Easter Bunny or Santa Claus.
The incremental costs are NOT low, they do not have the line or the suppliers in place (or the news would be out) and it will not cost GM money not to make the car, this one is beyond illogical. As an earler poster stated, just imagine the incremental training costs needed for the impala/malibu mechanics and the parts stocking required for a run of 1500 to 2000 very high tech units. Indeed GN would absolutely LOSE money on this car. The only benefit would be as a halo car.
Yes, people would pay 100k for it but can you imagine the service failures on an even more complicated model? Which would probably see 80% usage at the track. As you say, you sold your Z for these reasons.
And your logic about the Ford GT rings just as true in this case for GM. It would be a huge waste of assets for a company that should be focused elsewhere.
The production of this car is very unlikely, I'm sure the prototype is real and running around, but the number of cars that make it from show car/prototype is small indeed.

 

[Scott_in_FL]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

Lee, that was a solid post. Nicely done.

It looks like the waiting game will have to continue for a few more months.

 

[RMBSRT]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, most of this does not make sense..
GM and Caddy are committed to the XLR and would never shut that line down to build a car that will only produce 1500 to 2000 units. That line would be moving MUCH slower than it is now and it also would make more sense to just add those 1500 to 2000 units to the Vette line as most things will be similar, if they can build the z and the base vette on the same line they can build both z's and the base on the same line.
The ZO7 engine would be built at the GM performance center in Detroit and there is NO news that it is tooling up, if it were the car would have to be announced as the news would be OUT. There is a new Caddy engine in development and that might add to the confusion.
GM DOES NOT HAVE A LOT OF EXTRA CASH ON HAND, and there is no Easter Bunny or Santa Claus.
The incremental costs are NOT low, they do not have the line or the suppliers in place (or the news would be out) and it will not cost GM money not to make the car, this one is beyond illogical. As an earler poster stated, just imagine the incremental training costs needed for the impala/malibu mechanics and the parts stocking required for a run of 1500 to 2000 very high tech units. Indeed GN would absolutely LOSE money on this car. The only benefit would be as a halo car.
Yes, people would pay 100k for it but can you imagine the service failures on an even more complicated model? Which would probably see 80% usage at the track. As you say, you sold your Z for these reasons.
And your logic about the Ford GT rings just as true in this case for GM. It would be a huge waste of assets for a company that should be focused elsewhere.
The production of this car is very unlikely, I'm sure the prototype is real and running around, but the number of cars that make it from show car/prototype is small indeed.

OK...reality check!!

Where did I say EXTRA CASH in my post. GM has 22.6 BILLION in cash not counting liquid reserves available to the company. They could shut the doors and still operate with no inflows for more than 1000 business days. They are shedding 34000 union employees in the next 18 to 24 months. Do not underestimate GM.

In regards to the Blue Devil, that car is nothing more than platform sharing at its best. They already have all the parts and suppliers in house and ready to go. The XLR line is producing 5 to 7 cars a day. (the C6 line does 250 a day) It could easily incorporate a specialty car like the Blue Devil in its production line.

The Blue Devil production in no way compares to the Ford GT and its production. It was a one off vehicle from start to finish and Ford basically used all of SVTs budget for the next five years to produce that car.

Regarding dealer support and service...it ***** at GM. We all know that, but if GM produces a 650hp blue devil, it will sell regardless of support.

 

[Mopar488]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

On the subject of the Z06 quality problems, I keep hearing about the roofs flying off. Is this just with the Z06 or are all Vettes affected?

 

[rschiltz]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

Alright, I'm swayed by the latest posts that something is likely to happen. I still think it is poor business sense for them right now. They may have cash on hand, but that financial picture is less than rosy and the current car is not properly built (materials, design, assembly... who knows why these things are having such a hard time staying together). That is costly to GM in the form of recall/repair dollars and can't be good for its reputation building high perf sportscars.

Plus, the idea is wrong to some extent. Putting a blower on an engine and stuffing it under a bulged hood of a Z06 is not what they need. Rather, an FGT type car seems a better fit. Make it wild (I've seen the recent sketches and they still look tame), make it rare (a couple of hundred) and charge a fortune for it. Lamborghini who, Ferrari what? The Z06 fills the bill for a sub $100k car that regular folks can purchase. Make a ton and sell every one. But, then make a super-rare world ****** for a fortunate few to prove that you can.

The current spy photos are probably just hiding the Blue Devil powertrain and suspension, if anything at all. I think if they make the BD, it will look more unique and closer to a C6R. My $.02.

 

[Austin]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

On the subject of the Z06 quality problems, I keep hearing about the roofs flying off. Is this just with the Z06 or are all Vettes affected?

GM had the problem with ALL Vettes, including the ZO6. The problem has supposedly been fixed and all '07's and up should not have any problems; although GM does insist that you not roll your windows down at speeds above 80mph.

 

[V10SpeedLuvr]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

although GM does insist that you not roll your windows down at speeds above 80mph.

Seriously???

 

[Austin]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

although GM does insist that you not roll your windows down at speeds above 80mph.

Seriously???

Very.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

Guess that eliminates track usage where windows down is required.

 

[Mopar488]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/ac3e78e4-5c3f-4930-b555-985501706603.htm

Check out this link for a broken roof.

 

[Roadtrip]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

The Ford GT was not a waste of assets. It's a Halo car, just as the Viper was to Chrysler in '92. The Blue Devil will be a world ******, I give GM a lot of credit for pushing it through. I see diminishing values in the muscle car market in the forseeable future. The current market of Supercars- Vipers, particulary Ford GT's and the Blue Devil if it comes out will crush the values of the old barges. We are living in the biggest performance era of all time and most people still don't know it.

Agreed... Actually if it weren't for the '92 Viper, the Corvette would have been shelved. There are alot of Vette owners and lovers, far more than Viper... They will build the Stingray (Z07) and DC will build a better Viper.

You are right, these are great performance times. With the right amount of money, it's like being a kid in a candy store. I'm close, but not quite there.

 

[evomind]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

ive got news for u all.
the zo7 is a reality. it was actually prototyped abt 3 years ago.
the engine will be putting out 625hp, and that is "detuned" and easily modified.
this info came straight from an engineer.

what some folks dont understand, is cars like zo6's and zo7's do for chevy is that it creates residual sales for the regular c6 vette.
"average joe" walks into the chevy place to check out a z and cant afford it. (not that any "average joe" can afford a vette, but u get the point)
but maybe he CAN afford a c6. if they have any kind of sales staff, they sell him a great car for the money (c6) when the guy realizes the z's are just out of his range financially.

dodge doesnt have a residual sales car to offer viper fans who cant afford the viper. at least not yet. joe blow walks into a dodge dealer, checks out the viper, cant afford it. what does he buy? a caliber srt4? doubt it. a 4 door srt8? again, very doubtful.
he walks out and buys a c6 or maybe even a z.

great times indeed.
i own a 2006 z and i love the car, its awesome.
but i WILL have a viper in the near future. (i would have a viper now if any of the several dealers i contacted wanted to do business. one dealer even contacted ME first. from this board, then never got back to me. bye bye. hence i spent my money elsewhere.)
im waiting as eagerly as you folks for the 08 viper....
awesome times for us car folks indeed.

 

[DodgeViper01]

Re: Where did the \"08 Viper debut at NAIAS\" go?

I removed it. Sorry. The '08 Viper will debut at the Jan. Detroit Auto Show.

Really? I did not know about this. I can not wait now. Looks like a trip to Detriot is in order now!!