ABS or non for a newbie

[ILLSMOQ]

Yeah, there are also a lot of Mustang/Camaro guys that have been pretty surprised at that car. For a daily driver, for towing, and for general screwing around offroad, it's a blast and fairly bullet proof.

I had 4.56 gears and an NX 150 hp shot on my 02 4.7 ** grand...it suprised a lot of people

back on topic...get a car with with ABS unless you gotta have a specific color or want forged pistons

 

[dave6666]

OK Tom... Survey says???

Time to pick apart the 1990 study some more. Your comebacks have been stupendous, but I am clever and relentless.

So...

I am curious about this statistic. You know, standard issue before and after ABS numbers. A description of what I'm looking for:


Accidents that didn't happen. Kind of a racing term - he wrecked but he just didn't hit anything. So what about the times that the brakes are applied to avoid a collision and it works? No wreck. Or when you hit the brakes on wet pavement and you don't lose control? No spin out.


I need some numbers on those situations, before and after ABS.










<crickets>









<more crickets>









<crickets dying from old age>









There are no statistic from those types of scenarios because no one tells anyone besides their buddy or wife of GF or whatever. It is a non event from the world of government and other organized statistical gathering methods. And I bet the numbers would be staggering in favor of ABS.

Of course I have to guess for now.

Waiting on that report Tom.

 

[PatentLaw]

Check out page 49. The results, except for loose gravel, are pretty compelling, IMHO.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfile...ia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/capubs/NHTSAabsT4FinalRpt.pdf

If we are talking a 10 to 20% difference for a loaded vehicle, the difference is huge. Can a person be "20%" better than an average driver? Sure. Of course. But for the average driver, and even the average Viper driver, the results are telling.

This is a final report, not a preliminary report, from NHTSA. It is the reason why manufacturers put on these devices. It increases your chances 20%. A vast improvement for a couple of modulators and some hydraulic lines.

I have said it countless times on here. These devices are good. I have done patents for some of the worlds best manufacturers on these systems. You probably drive on some of them yourselves. The data tells all.

 

[dave6666]

^^^ Nice link ^^^

Looks like the ABS'ers have a new posse leader.



Tom, waiting on updates from Team Non-ABS.

 

[Red Snake]

^^^ Nice link ^^^

Looks like the ABS'ers have a new posse leader.



Tom, waiting on updates from Team Non-ABS.

Some of us drive well enough that we don't need to slam on our brakes and flat spot our tires.

 

[dave6666]

Some of us drive well enough that we don't need to slam on our brakes and flat spot our tires.

And the rest of us aren't ignorant enough to believe that we're immune from being the victim of an emergency braking situation of which you only think you're that good!

 

[Red Snake]

And the rest of us aren't ignorant enough to believe that we're immune from being the victim of an emergency braking situation of which you only think you're that good!

Duh, Some of us know we're that good.

If I don't have it, then I don't need it.

 

[ViperTony]

^^^ Nice link ^^^

Looks like the ABS'ers have a new posse leader.



Tom, waiting on updates from Team Non-ABS.

I'm on team ABS so long as my teammates understand that ABS won't fix stupid. Traction Control on the other hand...But that's another thread.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Dave, I hope you read this report. I just breezed through it and stopped at Figure 16 because it had red and yellow bars. Interestingly, in a split mu surface braking test, two cars had their shortest braking distance with the ABS disabled. Hmmm...

Then I fast forwarded to Table 5, a lane change manuever near the limit of lateral adhesion. Looks like ABS didn't keep any car from spinning out at least once.

This report is only of Task 4 (braking performance) out of 9. Task 8 is "...attempt to infer why the crash data studies did not find the anticipated increase in safety for ABS-equipped vehicles." Ooops, I guess the real world still isn't safer. This is a January 1999 report, so hopefully the other sections have been published and we can read the entire document.



I believe I am entirely consistent with my discussion:

• Nice summary by Tony: ABS won't fix stupid.
• ABS is not a cure for all braking conditions (see the newly linked report)
• I am personally biased because rear brake swaps on Gen 1 cars reduced distance by at least 20% and data contributed by an ABS Viper owner shows little difference (Gen 1 vs. ABS car.) Mechanics and hydraulics are important.
• I have asked what does a 10%-15% shorter stopping distance translate to for crash severity? We keep assuming 100% pass through efficiency of the nut behind the wheel.
• It still depends on driver reaction and some accidents may be avoided. Some accidents will be less severe and cause less injury. Some accidents will be less severe and still cause major injury. However, a blanket statement of "increasing your chances 20%" because the test data stopping distance improvement was 20% is unsupported by any facts.
• Apparently some accident types increased.

Obviously ABS works. I have only argued that the benefit to society (public road safety) is less significant than the measured (idealized) performance benefit. It is not flipping a switch that avoids most accidents, it is a directional improvement along with hundreds of other things.

Like a lock on your door, a safety on your gun, or warnings on beer labels, we still have thieves, shootings and drunks. I think my twisted logic earlier is looking better and better - ABS only benefits drivers perceptive enough to know their car, capability and surroundings. I guess that includes you, Dave!

 

[PatentLaw]

Good points above. Although the data can be shown to be important both ways, that 15% stopping distance/increased ability can mean that you have a 5% more chance of survival. For the number of accidents that happen across the nation, that 5% can mean lots of lawsuits/saved lives. I am sure that the data is relatively the same in the US.

Speed and Crash Risk - Results

Add in safety belts, side impact barriers and airbags and you have very significant advances in crash protection.

 

[dave6666]

Tom... You finally said something that caught my attention.





THERE ARE WARNING LABELS ON BEER???





Anyway, the standoff continues.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

PatentLaw, coming from someone trained in debate, thank you. 15% shorter distances leading to 5% better chances seems reasonable, and spread over the population, is many lives and dollars.

The NHTSA site lists several reports and SAE papers from this large study. Unfortunately while all tasks seem to be completed, it doesn't have links to all reports.

Vehicle Research & Test Center (VRTC) | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration(NHTSA) | U.S. Department of Transportation

There is one observation that might relate to Dave in SAE paper 1999-01-1290.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/capubs/sae1999-01-1290.pdf

This paper studied driver's use of ABS in collision avoidance at an intersection using a driving simulator. In the conclusions it states "Overall, ABS was not found to be associated with significantly fewer crashes in this study as compared to conventional brakes. However, females were found to crash significantly less with ABS than with conventional brakes." (my emphasis added, but I am not making this up!)

Maybe now we have the scientific explanation for Dave's successful driving experiences...

 

[PatentLaw]

Funny.......and great links.
Some of the data I posted did not seem to make sense because there was not a clear indication that speed and death are related at high accident speeds.

I tried to do a search on vehicle type (aka Viper) to see what the death rate was. I am sure it is very high for the miles driven. You can instantly see why........lots of new drivers jump right in and wrap themselves around a pole or.....

Day 1 of ownership...."Yeah....this car is great, but I am going to put a Paxson on it....I am a real man"

Day 5 of ownership....."Yeah....this thing is really great"

Day 10 (cold morning)......"Does anyone know how I can get my money out of the insurance company...blah blah blah...."

Then you never hear from the clown again.

For guys who have been around, they don't do anything stupid. They will survive, regardless of ABS.

The only place that I can absolutely see that ABS helps out is the following way......


You are driving down the road and all of a sudden, some ***** pulls out in front for no reason. Generally (and I can speak from personal experience by knowing someone in the situation), it is not your driving that is at issue (like on a race track), but rather someone elses bad driving. You could have been Mario Andretti in his prime, it would not have mattered one bit. Only the severity of the crash is at issue.

 

[dave6666]

The only place that I can absolutely see that ABS helps out is the following way......

You are driving down the road and all of a sudden, some ***** pulls out in front for no reason. Generally (and I can speak from personal experience by knowing someone in the situation), it is not your driving that is at issue (like on a race track), but rather someone elses bad driving. You could have been Mario Andretti in his prime, it would not have mattered one bit. Only the severity of the crash is at issue.

EXACTLY what I have been saying all along! The OP stated STREET USE for his car, and I have been saying that in an EMERGENCY braking situation where you realize what just happened AFTER it has happened? Yeah, I'll take the ABS.

Dave, non-professional driver no debate training but statistical training have used my ABS many times Viper driver.

 

[Red Snake]

I am still trying to figure out how people "have used my ABS many times". I run my car hard and (fortunately, knock on wood) have NEVER slammed on my Viper's brakes and slid my tires. And the only times I have ever activated the ABS on my other cars is when I hit a pothole or uneven spot in the road while braking.

I just don't see how this could be an important factor in determining which car I would buy.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

have used my ABS many times Viper driver.

I like you Dave but if you're activating your ABS "many times" while driving I think I'll take the bus. You're following waaaaaay too close or not paying much attention.

Even trackers will say they rarely activate ABS when racing.

Over a 9-year period I activated the ABS on my Chevy S10 twice. Once when I missed a turn and once when a car stopped short in front of me. Of the two times, only one would have resulted in an accident (a fender-bender) and nobody would have been killed or even seriously injured. In both cases I realized I had ABS I just laid on the brakes and made the turns.

In contrast, I once got cut off in my non-ABS Viper, locked up the brakes with nowhere to go and still evaded another fender-bender. Ended up with a bit of a flatspot but at city driving speeds it was no where near the flatspots I've created going into turns at 150mph.

BTW my street Viper has those crappy EBC greens.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The only place that I can absolutely see that ABS helps out is the following way......

You are driving down the road and all of a sudden, some ***** pulls out in front for no reason. Generally (and I can speak from personal experience by knowing someone in the situation), it is not your driving that is at issue (like on a race track), but rather someone elses bad driving. You could have been Mario Andretti in his prime, it would not have mattered one bit. Only the severity of the crash is at issue.

But it still comes down to most people not knowing the real advantage of ABS and that is to turn while braking, not stop sooner. If Mario doesn't have enough time to turn before crashing then it doesn't matter if he has ABS or not.

And if it's the average motorist talking on the cell phone or putting on make-up, ABS won't matter either.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

PatentLaw, I am sure your explanation is why we have such great debates here. We are mostly not stupid and have hard imprints of what works and what is right.

Hee, hee, Dave... Anyway, when you threw in the *** MPH and ABS information I mixed up your sporty driving comments with risk-averse driving on the street and emergency manuever behavior. Sorry for my misundstanding. But you sure are safe at intersections, I'll bet. Do you wear heels when you drive? Hey, statistics don't lie!

Red Snake, without making an argument out of it, you might be leaving something on the table as far as maximum deceleration only because you haven't discovered where "maximum" is. Not far from my house is a safe, straight, Mexican style closed course where I almost daily evaluate the coefficient of braking tire friction on the road. It sets the tone for the day's driving and with practice I can tell which tire is low on air. I recommend trying it periodically; it's a g-force greater than available acceleration rates and so may produce unanticipated vehicle or driver behavior. But whether ABS needs to be a purchase pre-requisite, agree that maybe not.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

You have a PM.

 

[Red Snake]

Red Snake, without making an argument out of it, you might be leaving something on the table as far as maximum deceleration only because you haven't discovered where "maximum" is. Not far from my house is a safe, straight, Mexican style closed course where I almost daily evaluate the coefficient of braking tire friction on the road. It sets the tone for the day's driving and with practice I can tell which tire is low on air. I recommend trying it periodically; it's a g-force greater than available acceleration rates and so may produce unanticipated vehicle or driver behavior. But whether ABS needs to be a purchase pre-requisite, agree that maybe not.

I have the SRT Big Brake upgrade. I am purely speculating but I believe that my deceleration capability is quite adequate, especially compared to how the car came equipped in stock form.

I would have bought the car though, with or without the big brake upgrade (it was already installed). It's nice to have but it just wouldn't have been a factor.

Your "Mexican closed course" exercise sounds interesting but I CAN'T TRY IT because I don't have ABS. I might flat spot my tires.

 

[Cop Magnet]

I like you Dave but if you're activating your ABS "many times" while driving I think I'll take the bus. You're following waaaaaay too close or not paying much attention.

Even trackers will say they rarely activate ABS when racing.

Over a 9-year period I activated the ABS on my Chevy S10 twice. Once when I missed a turn and once when a car stopped short in front of me. Of the two times, only one would have resulted in an accident (a fender-bender) and nobody would have been killed or even seriously injured. In both cases I realized I had ABS I just laid on the brakes and made the turns.

In contrast, I once got cut off in my non-ABS Viper, locked up the brakes with nowhere to go and still evaded another fender-bender. Ended up with a bit of a flatspot but at city driving speeds it was no where near the flatspots I've created going into turns at 150mph.

BTW my street Viper has those crappy EBC greens.

So you've flat spotted your tires at the track in a non-ABS car, but getting into the ABS in a newer car for trackers is rare?

Bottom line is the Viper is a trackable street car. The ABS is part of being a safe street car. Don't complain the car has ABS just because you can also track it. Be happy with what you have, which is a hand-built factory kit-car with minimal government and corporate-mandated grannies.

 

[dave6666]

The times I have activated my ABS have been with the SRT calipers and 14" rotors F&R. I am braking extremely hard on purpose. I assume that in a street emergency baking situation - assuming I have the opportunity to use the brakes - that my pedal effort would be the same. Only the timing of when my memory starts of the events that just happened would be different.

I am making the assumption that if I had no ABS I would either have flat spotted tires from sliding them, or the car would be switching ends from the skid. Neither of those do I believe myself or most of you self proclaimed experts could control in an emergency situation. At least as well as computer enhancement - nannytech - can.

Enough on that, but need to clarify... Here in Texas men don't drive with their heels on (bedroom use only...) - spurs, you dummies!

 

[GR8_ASP]

Not sure I should get into this foray. But to defend Dave (or Davie as Tom may put it) I would say that ABS has prevented running into a deer at least twice. The ability to maximize braking AND steer around the brown and fuzzy was very important. Without ABS, in that type of emergency situation I would find it darn near impossible to brake effectively withot locking the wheels and sliding right into thye deer. Note this is not the track. I am not ready for threshold braking situation 100% of the time.

As to tracking and ABS usage I would strongly state that ABS is invoked many times by most drivers. Especially under high speed braking with surface changes, undulations or hill cresting. And, not to complicate things further, ABS systems generally use electronic modulation for F/R balance rather than a fixed device. That increases non-ABS situation braking capability significantly (similar to Tom's added rear brake capability for non-ABS Gen I/II.

 

[dave6666]

Davie??? Only certain people can call me that.

Anyone want to sign up? I'll send you an application.

1. __________


2. __________


3. __________

 

[GR8_ASP]

I stated "as Tom may put it." Emphasis on Tom and may. The inference was clear.

 

[PatentLaw]

One very important point brought up above by GR8 ASP, road conditions. In the north, conditions vary more widely. Black ice, etc. Road surfaces in the north are, to be frank, more poorly maintained.

 

[eucharistos]

You must be registered for see images attach

the 1 and only






unless you include:

You must be registered for see images attach

or:

You must be registered for see images

sombody pls abs me

 

[dave6666]

I stated "as Tom may put it." Emphasis on Tom and may. The inference was clear.

Well understood! I was hoping at least Tom would sign up.

 

[ViperTony]

The one time I think I needed ABS it didn't kick in or maybe it did but I don't recall feeling that pulsing sensation or change in brake pedal height as I had my foot firmly planted on the brake. Not paying attention (<-- Mistake #1 (can't fix stupid) ) I was about to go right through a stop sign at roughly 40mph. It was one of those "What a nice day...LA LA LA...OH SH*T Stop sign going by!!!" moments. I hit the brakes, hard. I come to a screeching halt, screeching because my brakes locked up. I laid a nice path of rubber on the road and managed to stop only half-way through the stop sign. I did stop in a straight line, no turning. However, on the track very quickly slowing down from 140mph or so to make a left turn onto an infield road course (pocono) I can feel my ABS working, no lockup, but I'm braking in a straight line not in the turn (obviously).

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Of course I'll sign up. I had to step out to check my supply of rears...

What do you lubricate the little spinning wheels on the spurs with?